Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote:Then, the rest of the explanation is not topical. Either you have evidence that God hears the unbeliever, or not. Apparently you were sighting Jonah as evidence that he does, yet you clearly state, "I don't know if God heard them or not."

Hey jlay, Before you throw me completely under the bus, lets look at the story one last time about the sailors a little closer. My point for the third and final time, is, the pagan sailors praying to the LORD GOD. Now, why is it after the pagan sailors prayed to the LORD GOD he granted them their request? Notice GOD didn't destroy the ship. They didn't want to be held accountable for the blood of Jonah. They even prayed to their own gods first with no luck. In the 10 commandments, Exodus 20:3 and Deuteronomy 5:7 God says "You shall have no other gods before me". Exodus 20:5 and Deuteronomy 5:9 that GOD is a jealous GOD. It was nothing for GOD to utterly destroy pagans in the OT and he did so on several occasions. Can you tell me why he didn't destroy the sailors? I still stand by the fact that I don't know if GOD heard them or not. I'm not GOD nor do I claim to speak for him. But, by the outcome of the story, I would say I'm 80% sure he did hear the sailors. By the way, why did you ignore my statement, and my reply about your claim Jonah prophesied to the sailors, and how the sailors converted?

jlay wrote:I would ask you, how could you question someone you didn't believe existed.

If I'm understand you correctly, I never said I didn't believe in GOD. I did question GOD, about why, not if. If I'm incorrect, please accept my apology in advance.

jlay wrote:God began a relationship with us before we were formed in the womb. So, you don't have to 'start' a relationship with God. In fact, God started it, and God finished it. All we can do is respond in faith.

So, would Kristoffer be showing faith if he talked to GOD? After all, if, like you said, “God began a relationship with us before we were formed in the womb“. Would he also be acknowledging GOD does in fact exist? Jlay, all I'm trying to do is encourage Kristoffer, not discourage him.

I see you are quoting James 1:6 to justify your response. I think you're missing the point James is trying to make. James 1:1 is the greetings to the twelve tribes in the Dispersion. James 1:2-4. The subject of temptations or trials. They were to regard it, not as a subject of sorrow, but of gladness and joy, that they were called to pass through trials; for if born in a proper manner, they would produce the grace of patience, and this was to be regarded as an object worth being secured, even by much suffering. If in their trials they felt that they had lacked the wisdom which they needed to enable them to bear them in a proper manner, they had the privilege of looking to God, and seeking it at his hand. This was a privilege conceded to all, and if it were asked in faith, without any wavering, it would certainly be granted, James 1:5-7. In the context of James 1:6, asking for wisdom in faith means committing oneself to obey what God reveals


Jlay, I will be happy to read your response. Please note that I consider our interpretations different, and that is ok from my end. I have put all the time in this subject with you, that I wish to.

GOD Bless jlay

I'm a dispensationaliss so I am well aware of the context of James. The issue of faith is applicable here, and BW provided several other quotes regarding this matter, so I didn't see the need to repeat them.

So, would Kristoffer be showing faith if he talked to GOD?

That's the question. Only God knows his heart. I've seen no evidence. I've seen only stubborness.

Jlay, all I'm trying to do is encourage Kristoffer, not discourage him.

Then let us make sure we give him right info. Telling him, "just pray and see what happens, what do you have to lose," is not going to cut it.

Can you tell me why he didn't destroy the sailors?

Jonah. Jonah was the reason for this storm and calamity. The purpose of the storm was not to kill these sailors, but because of Jonah's refusal to go to Ninevah. The sailors didn't pray to God to stop the storm. As you noted, they prayed, that Jonah's God would not kill them for throwing Jonah overboard and thus taking his life. The sailors asked, "What should we do to you to make the sea calm down for us?" Jonah said to throw him overboard and this storm would stop. They ignored Jonah. Jonah didn't tell the men that if they threw him overboard that God would kill them. That was their own imaginations. In fact, he told them the opposite was true. They finally threw him overboard, it stopped. Period. Jonah said exactly what would happen. (prophesy) The men were converted. They made Vows to God. The God. It's right there, black ink on a white page. Where is there any evidence that God ever intended to kill these sailors?

jlay, it seems we are at a difference of opinion on scriptural interpretations. So, for now I will agree to disagree. Although I will take what you have said into consideration and search scripture further. Please know that I'm not so prideful to think I have all the answers. I have been wrong before, and will be again. So as not to cause strife between you and I, I think it is in the best interest to humbly bow out.

GOD Bless

Interpretations?

Not sure I am following you here. This isn't poetic or symbolic. This is a historical narrative. It says what it means. Just what exactly are you reading from the text that shows God's intention for the storm was to destroy these sailors? You'd have to give me some specifics on just how and why you are interpreting Jonah this way.

jlay wrote:Interpretations?
Not sure I am following you here. This isn't poetic or symbolic. This is a historical narrative. It says what it means. Just what exactly are you reading from the text that shows God's intention for the storm was to destroy these sailors? You'd have to give me some specifics on just how and why you are interpreting Jonah this way.

First, I would like to apologize in advance for lying. I said I was done with this bickering about Jonah. You just wont let this die will you jlay? You are misinterpreting my replies. So, lets take this one step at a time.

jlay wrote:Interpretations?

Definition of Interpretation:
1. establishment of meaning: an explanation or establishment of the meaning or significance of something.
2. ascription of particular meaning: an ascription of a particular meaning or significance to something.
Encarta® World English Dictionary[North American Edition]

jlay wrote:Not sure I am following you here.

Agree

jlay wrote:This isn't poetic or symbolic.

Agree

jlay wrote:This is a historical narrative. It says what it means.

Agree. See Matthew 12:39-41. To doubt the historicity of Jonah is to doubt the words of Christ.

jlay wrote:Just what exactly are you reading from the text that shows God's intention for the storm was to destroy these sailors?

Disagree. God's intention, was to get Jonah's attention. I never said it was to destroy the sailors. This is what I said,

When they saw that the cause was hopeless, they asked Jonah's God for His forgiveness for throwing Jonah into the stormy sea.

GOD had quite talking to Jonah at that time and needed to get his attention, he did so by the tempest.

Now, jlay I have answered you ever single time you have questioned me. It is your turn to answer my questions to you. You said, and I quote:

jlay wrote:Jonah said exactly what would happen. (prophesy)The men were converted. They made Vows to God. The God. It's right there, black ink on a white page

Where in the book of Jonah did it say that he/Jonah prophesied to the sailors? Can you please show me.

Also, where does it say the sailors were converted? There are two words we need to take a look at, sacrifice and vows. First lets take the word vows used in Jonah 1:16.

Neder, This is the word used in Jonah 1:16 for “Vows”

neder (neh'-der); or neder (nay'-der); from OT:5087; a promise (to God); also (concretely) a thing promised:
This description can be found in your Strong's

Vows, as defined by, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
Septuagint: A vow could be positive (nedher) and included all promises to perform certain things for, or bring certain offerings to, God, in return for certain benefits which were hoped for at His hand (Gen 28:20-22, Jacob; Lev 27:2,8; Num 30:1; Judg 11:30, Jephthah; 1 Sam 1:11, Hannah; 2 Sam 15:8, Absalom; Jonah 1:16, vows of heathen); or negative (°iccar), and included promises by which a person bound himself or herself to abstain from certain things (Num 30:3). Nowhere in the Old Testament do we find the making of vows regarded as a religious duty (Deut 23:22), but the fulfilling of a vow was considered as a sacred and binding duty (Deut 23:21-23; Judg 11:35; Eccl 5:4; compare Ps 22:25; 66:13; 76:11; 116:18). A vow was as binding as an oath and therefore to be kept to the letter; and it was not to be lightly made (Prov 20:25).

Next, lets take sacrifice as used in Jonah 1:16.

Zebhach, This is the word used in Jonah 1:16 for “SACRIFICE”

Zebach (zeh'-bakh); from OT:2076; properly, a slaughter, i.e. the flesh of an animal; by implication, a sacrifice This description can be found in your Strong's

Zebhach, as defined by, International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
: a "slaughtered animal," a "sacrifice," general term for animals used in sacrifice, including burnt offerings, peace offerings, thank offerings, and all sacrifices offered to the Deity and eaten at the festivals. More particularly it refers to the flesh eaten by the worshippers after the fat parts had been burned on the altar and the priest had received his portion.

Finally, You'll have to give me some specifics on just how and why you are interpreting Jonah this way. I tried to let this go, to back away, and leave it alone, but, you wouldn't see it that way.

Where in the book of Jonah did it say that he/Jonah prophesied to the sailors?

Prophecy can be many things. It can be devine Words from God. It can also be something as simple as speaking the truth, or even a prediction. you can look up the definitions if you like.

Jonah told the men to throw him overboard and the storm would stop. They did, and the storm stopped. That meets the most basic definition. Jonah knew the strorm was due to his disobedience. He knew that if he were thrown overboard, God would end the storm, and the men would be spared.

You'll have to give me some specifics on just how and why you are interpreting Jonah this way. I tried to let this go, to back away, and leave it alone, but, you wouldn't see it that way.

Gotcha. That is a fair question regarding the conversion of the men. Yes, that is my interpretation of the matter. However, this is NOT at issue with the topic of the thread. I was adressing the matter of the storm and Jonah, and did God hear the prayers of the unbelievers. The conversion is a secondary point that came up in the discussion. FWIW, the vows and sacrifices would be evidence that the men believed in the God of Jonah. If you disagree, that is fine. But still it has nothing to do with the issue regarding did God hear the sailors. Nothing. I also fail to see how it has anything to do with why you asked, "why didn't God kill the sailors?" Which is why I asked, "You'd have to give me some specifics on just how and why you are interpreting Jonah this way." Did I read something wrong. Did you not ask me, "why didn't God kill the sailors?" Here is the crux of the matter. This would clearly indicate to me that you were saying this: The men prayed to Jonah's god not to be killed. The men didn't die, so God heard their prayer. Am I wrong on this?

Also, I am not forcing you to reply. You are under no obligation to respond to my posts.

Kristoffer wrote: Please do not bunch me in with "they", also i saw that it was mentioned that athiesm is a "world view", it is not naturalism or nihilism, it is just the position of rejecting certain claims, even christians have been called athiest... So why do people who have been called it, find it so offensive for other people to be like that?

Kristoffer, some of us had tried to define atheism and agnosticism with you, but you never go anywhere with it. What is your definition of atheism, and can you cite sources for this definition? Please do, so we all may know what it is we're talking about. If certain Christians have been called atheists, then either the person calling them that didn't know what they were talking about, or the Christians weren't actual believers. Atheists are those who do not believe in a diety, Christians believe fully in a diety, so calling a Christian an atheist makes absolutely no sense.

The Book of Jonah is short, but full of prayer. It is a foreshadowing of Christ and his work, as Jesus himself said. Not only did Jonah rise out of the depths after three days, but he preached to grave sinners to change their ways and accept God's word (in the church age, the gentiles are God's people too, after having their savior come out of God's chosen people).

Jonah in 1:12 told the sailors that the storm was his fault and that if they threw him over, the storm would cease. The sailors wouldn't do it, though, because they were compassionate and didn't want Jonah to die. Of course they knew that anyone thrown in that raging sea would die, and they say they didn't want to be guilty of murder. They pray to God (who they probably rightly understood as the supreme God, and God of the sea) to hold them unaccountable. Then because the sea was calmed after throwing Jonah over, they viewed it as an answer to them. If God didn't want them to think that he answered their prayer, he wouldn't have calmed the sea (they would still be held accountable in their eyes). Jonah prophesied it, but all prophesy is from God - not persons. God answered the prayers of the sailors. God is the God of all humans, and wasn't just the God of Israel; he wants people to come to Him, and He also does things to bring Glory to Himself. The whole message of Jonah is that God knows what is going on with all peoples, and He wants to bring them to repentance, even the most vile, like the Ninevites.

The Ninevites did works to show remorse and repentance, but it also says that they prayed to God. Jonah 3:8. God heard their prayers, their calls to Him, and He had compassion on them.

I can't recall the verses off the top of my head, but there is indication in the Bible that God will not hear certain people's prayers, or certain prayers. But I bet that there are persons out there, atheists or agnostics, who have prayed and tested God, perhaps even in a mocking way, who had their prayers answered and had come to faith. Some of the most vocal atheists have come to Christ later, and arguing about when that person's heart turned enough in order for God to hear their prayers, seems like useless arguing. God knows a person's heart, and a person's final decision in the end; we don't. Kristoffer, from some of the things he's written on the board, and from some things that he wrote me in private, well, why shouldn't we encourage him to pray and see what happens? Of course he should. He has some inkling of God, God seems to be working on Him, so he should pray sooner rather than later.

(groan) jlay….this is fruitless. To address the primary point of this discussion. This is what I see about the sailors in the book of Jonah. The sailors were pagans. They cried to their gods. They feared Yahweh only after finding out it was he (GOD) who made the storm. The storm was to get Jonah's attention. In fearing for their lives, the sailors called out to the Lord GOD.

This is where I ask myself the following, why didn't GOD destroy the sailors. They were pagans. He (GOD) hates idol worship. He's a jealous GOD. Is it because they prayed to him(GOD)? Now, if sin is sin, and, Jonah disobeyed (sinned ) GOD and, the sailors worshipped false gods (sin). Why didn't GOD destroy the sailors? Here, is where I am left, with two options. Option 1. GOD cared nothing about the sailors. OR Option 2. GOD cared about the sailors. So far I'm leaning toward option 2. This is why I said, I believe, GOD heard their prayers. This is nothing more than my interpretation based on scripture.

Now to address the secondary point of this discussion. I believe you are confusing the definition of, the gift of prophecy in the new testament with prophecy of the old testament. There is a difference. In the old testament, it is attributed to the word of the Lord, usually spoken by a prophet, to relay a coming event or pending doom (as seen in the book of Jonah to the people of Nineveh).
In the new testament, as for the gift of prophecy, it should be distinguished from the office of prophet. Paul taught that all in the local assembly may have the privilege of prophesying (1 Cor 14:31), but not all are considered "prophets."

I realize prophecy is not the topic of this thread. Neither is arguing. I don't see the point in trying to top one another. I feel this gives GOD no glory. I hope you understand that I consider this subject finished. If you choose to reply further, that is fine. I will not continue to be a part of the works of the flesh in regard to our discussion. I would also like you to know, that I still consider you my brother in Christ even though we don't see eye to eye.

GOD Bless brother.

If God didn't want them to think that he answered their prayer, he wouldn't have calmed the sea (they would still be held accountable in their eyes). Jonah prophesied it, but all prophesy is from God - not persons. God answered the prayers of the sailors.

I have to vehemently disagree, for several reasons. First, in regards to this above quote, you are claiming to know what God was thinking, when the text gives ZERO information regarding this matter. Totally speculative. The text gives no indication of God's thoughts towards these sailors in this moment. So, why would God's thoughts be contrary to how He deals with men in other parts of the scriptures? It seems very far fetched to think that God would bow his knee to these pagans because He didn't want them to be confused when the storm ceased.

The Ninevites did works to show remorse and repentance, but it also says that they prayed to God. Jonah 3:8. God heard their prayers, their calls to Him, and He had compassion on them.

You left out a pretty important part of Jonah three. v5 The Ninevites believed God. They declared a fast, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth. v.10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened
So, of course He heard their prayer. Consistent with exactly what I have been saying.

Nowhere in all the scripture does it tell one to pray who is not a child of God. The most plain verse is here.
"We know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth. " (John 9:31, ASV)
But there are several others that touch the subject.
Proverbs 1:28-33
“Then they will call to me but I will not answer;they will look for me but will not find me.Since they hated knowledge and did not choose to fear the Lord,Since they would not accept my advice and spurned my rebuke.

1Pet, 3:12, "For the eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, And His ears attend to their prayer."

"He (any man) that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, Even his prayer is an abomination." (Proverbs 28:9, KJV)

"Surely God will not hear an empty cry, neither will the Almighty regard it. " (Job 35:13, ASV)

"And this is the confidence that we (believers) have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we (believers) know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him. " (1John 5:14-15, ASV)

" Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do. If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. " (John 14:11, 13-15, ASV)

well, why shouldn't we encourage him to pray and see what happens?

Because there is ZERO evidnece in all the NT, from any sermon, admonision, instruction, or teaching for an unbeliever to experimentally pray in the way it is being mentioned.

"For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. " (Psalms 86:5, ASV) The calling on the Lord is the sign of repentance (change of mind from unbelief to belief) and God will hear those who call on Him. God is ready and able to hear anyone who will turn to Him in faith.

The whole message of Jonah is that God knows what is going on with all peoples, and He wants to bring them to repentance, even the most vile, like the Ninevites.

That is certainly a great part of the message. I'm puzzled though as to how you would confuse the two matters, or imply that I don't agree with this purpose.

SBB
Jonah was most assuredly considered a prophet. As far as the discussion. As Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. I hardly see this as arguing for the sake of arguing. I very seriously think some folks have a very distorted unbiblical view regarding this matter and advising certain people to pray in this manner.
FWIW, I view your interpretation wrong regarding the points you site. You view my interpretation wrong that the men were converted. As you say, I can still consider you my brother in Christ. The only work of the flesh is if it gets personal, or one of us takes it personal. Quite simply, we can't have contradicting views and both be right. We can both be wrong. So, perhaps through the discussion one of us comes to see the error, and is able to come to a right knowledge, then it is fruitful. Through the searching the scriptures on the matter, I have been edified.

jlay wrote:

If God didn't want them to think that he answered their prayer, he wouldn't have calmed the sea (they would still be held accountable in their eyes). Jonah prophesied it, but all prophesy is from God - not persons. God answered the prayers of the sailors.

I have to vehemently disagree, for several reasons. First, in regards to this above quote, you are claiming to know what God was thinking, when the text gives ZERO information regarding this matter. Totally speculative.

Lol, good for you! I gave my reason for writing what I did, but you disagree. My reasoning was not without a foundation or explanation. If you want to claim I didn't give a reason, well, it just goes to show that you don't want to read it or see it. I don't claim to know the mind of God, but He does give me insight sometimes, as He does all believers. As SBB said, you have a different interpretation, as many believers do on certain issues and verses. It's no reason to go on and on and keep on insisting that everyone else is wrong and you are right. Many of us, including myself, use the whole word of God as context. SBB is doing that too, as far as I can tell. We are to love and respect everyone, especially the brethren.

CSLL,
I read your post thouroughly (Based on your reply, I have to wonder if you gave mine the same consideration) and gave a well thought out, level headed response with scripture to support my conclusions. I also showed you in the scripture you sited where you left out obvious contextual facts in Jonah 3 that supported the very position I was making.

I didn't say you didn't have a reason. I said your reason was speculative and in contradiction to the verses I sited regarding the matter. If you refuse to review the verses I provided, and even the one you provided, (out of context) then I don't think you are giving me the same love and respect you are espousing.

jlay wrote:CSLL,
I read your post thouroughly (Based on your reply, I have to wonder if you gave mine the same consideration) and gave a well thought out, level headed response with scripture to support my conclusions. I also showed you in the scripture you sited where you left out obvious contextual facts in Jonah 3 that supported the very position I was making.

I didn't say you didn't have a reason. I said your reason was speculative and in contradiction to the verses I sited regarding the matter. If you refuse to review the verses I provided, and even the one you provided, (out of context) then I don't think you are giving me the same love and respect you are espousing.

Jlay, I haven't read everything in all posts (on the board), no. On the one hand, I don't have the time. On the other hand, in certain topics, I've read enough to know why I believe what I do. I've been around enough to know, thoroughly, how there are verses that support one position that seem to contradict the same position. At a certain point, I don't need to look at all the debate any more. Sure, there are times where I go and review a doctrine or theological issue, of course. I came to this thread more as a moderator, not a debater. I was concerned at the direction of this thread as a moderator. As a Christian, I felt the need to say something too. It did seem to me, based on all the posts up until the one I posted, that you were limiting God. That's my opinion. But as far as how I view what is in Jonah, I said why I believe what happened. In some ways I wouldn't mind discussing it more, but I have no desire to debate with you. God was gracious to give the sailors a sign in confirmation of their request. He didn't need to do this. God was gracious to them, and to the Ninevites. The overall message is that God is gracious to those who bother to call on Him. God is loving and merciful. I don't see what good it does anyone to nitpick about how we think God may listen or not to a specific person at a specific time. If someone wants to call on God, then please let us encourage them to do so. We as believers are allowed to call on God in an informal manner, as Abba (prayer being "sacred" can connote ritual and some kind of specialness the believer needs to have, like being an official priest); we can only hope and pray that others will get to that point where they feel the same, where they easily call on their true Father.

I don't see what good it does anyone to nitpick about how we think God may listen or not to a specific person at a specific time. If someone wants to call on God, then please let us encourage them to do so.

Vicki, respectfully, I don't view siting specific scriptures that deal with specific matters that are being discussed as nitpicking. The topic of this thread is the purpose of prayer. Everything I've mentioned has been topical, and within compliance of board discussion guidelines. I have challenged your position and others, as obviously I don't agree with them. This is a discussion board, and I expect that we can disagree. And i would hope that we could disagree, expose our points of contention and challenge one another without getting offended.
I expect a hardy debate with discussion and scriptural defense. Instead of the scriptures I have sited being addressed, inferences of nitpicking and being unloving are coming out. Is it surprising that I would view this as an unfair tactic, and an avoidance of the points I've made? When the scripture of Jonah was brought before me, I gave it a studied thorough reply. I didn't ignore it.

(prayer being "sacred" can connote ritual and some kind of specialness the believer needs to have, like being an official priest);

It is Vicki. Prayer is sacred, and we are priest. 1 Peter 2:5
I'm very surprised that you would somehow take exception with this fact and the use of the word sacred for prayer.

If someone wants to call on God, then please let us encourage them to do so.

Ahh, but that is exactly my point. And this should comply faithfully to the Word of God and what it teaches.

how there are verses that support one position that seem to contradict the same position.

Could you site an example? A scripture may have more than one interpretation, yes, but can never have conflicting interpretations.

Jlay, I said what I did because that's the way it looks to me. That is, the nitpicking. That's just my view of what I see happening, and I said it in a more lenient way than I might naturally want to say it. I haven't missed what SBB had posted, and how you responded, besides your responses to BW and Zoegirl. There's a difference between having a fruitful discussion regarding verses and seeming to want to pick a fight, or prove oneself more right than someone else. It seems like there is often more agreement than not, but your posts don't reflect that.

Some of the things you quote of me, for instance (including what started this), seem to me that you don't understand what I'm saying, or you choose to go on a tangent with it anyway. I don't know all for sure, and I know that posts can mean different things to different people, even if you're trying to be clear. The thing about sacredness in prayer, for instance. What's so hard to understand about what I said? How would Kristoffer, say, understand your meaning? I was getting at how a non-believer or new believer might view it. That's why I said it "can connote."

I'm taking Jonah in the context of itself, and in context of a sign of Christ and what He did and what He means, and the overall character of God. It would be hard to list all the verses. The overall message of Jonah I believe is what I already stated. When viewed in its overall context of God listening to gentiles and being gracious, then the meaning of the verses seems clear (or clearer). It would be good if others posted on it, to see what they think too.

As for examples of people thinking a verse means one thing, and another person thinks it means another (based on other verses, context, etc.), all's you have to do is look at the YEC and OEC threads, if not most threads on this board.