Evidence for God from Science

If I believed that it were completely or primarily up to me to affect the salvation and decision of another person, then that would indeed argue for my love for others (even a selfish love for those whom I directly know and care for) to motivate me to use every effort and waking moment.

Interesting. Do you believe this ? Romans 10:13- 15 - "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!". So, isn't it primarily up to us to bring the good news ? However, I do agree that it is not completely our work and must take the work of the Holy Spirit to convict and regenerate a person.

I grew up in quite an evangelistic local church and my parents were both saved from very non-church backgrounds. This church, in those days, was very concerned with the eternal destiny of others and not only pleaded with people to be saved but prayed constantly with many tears for the salvation of the lost. They not only believed in hell as a very endless torment place but also lived with the expectation that the rapture would take place at any moment and many would be left behind. There was much urgency, much praying and much sharing the Gospel in their evangelistic efforts.

Today, in my current setting, in a somewhat small 'e' evangelistic church, it seems like this urgency is gone. People talk about a 'faith journey' and are reluctant to 'rush someone to a faith that doesn't take effect'. The urgency thought I grew up with that 'today is the day of salvation and don't harden your heart if God is speaking to you' seems to no longer exist in the setting I am in. Instead I hear terms like - 'You may be kicking the tires and checking this Christian thing out. So take your time and give it much thought'. The altar call/decision time part of a service has been removed. Although I agree in not trying to humanly force a decision on the one hand, on the other hand I still believe that once the Gospel has been understood there is still an urgency to respond. (Life would be much simpler if I had Calvinistic beliefs ).

So, I wonder if this change happened because the concept of eternal torment is seldom, if ever, preached today or most people, in their hearts, really don't believe it anyway so why feel salvation has any urgency ?

Sorry, I may be going down a bunny trail here and wandering off topic. Personally, I think I should be so taken up with the free gift of abundant life in Christ, free from the bondage of sin, that this should motivate me most to be evangelistically involved so others can share in this life. I really think this was closer to the motivator in the early church rather than being motivated by fear of endless torment whether they believed in it or not. I admit that I am not loving my neighbour as I should when I don't share such a great salvation.

Whoops, I'm rambling on. Anyway, thanks Bart. You gave me more to ponder on this.

I understand the rationale. I think it's reflective of some of the all or nothing type thinking that we get in using greek philosophical either/or constructs.

The fact is we play a part in terms of fulfilling the Great Commission but ultimately it is the Spirit of God who draws men unto himself. God did not create us in order to burden us with the fate of everyone else but rather to know Him, and fellowship with Him. The Great commission is important and Ican agree with you that many evangelical churches have lost focus on it. It don't think the answer however is to use these types of constructs and use shame, guilt and fear to motivate us in our service.

God calls upon us to love Him and love others. That's enough of a motive for me. I don't need to take on a burden God never intended me to carry.

Sudsy wrote:....Today, in my current setting, in a somewhat small 'e' evangelistic church, it seems like this urgency is gone. People talk about a 'faith journey' and are reluctant to 'rush someone to a faith that doesn't take effect'. The urgency thought I grew up with that 'today is the day of salvation and don't harden your heart if God is speaking to you' seems to no longer exist in the setting I am in. Instead I hear terms like - 'You may be kicking the tires and checking this Christian thing out. So take your time and give it much thought'. The altar call/decision time part of a service has been removed. Although I agree in not trying to humanly force a decision on the one hand, on the other hand I still believe that once the Gospel has been understood there is still an urgency to respond. (Life would be much simpler if I had Calvinistic beliefs...).

So, I wonder if this change happened because the concept of eternal torment is seldom, if ever, preached today or most people, in their hearts, really don't believe it anyway so why feel salvation has any urgency?

Sorry, I may be going down a bunny trail here and wandering off topic. Personally, I think I should be so taken up with the free gift of abundant life in Christ, free from the bondage of sin, that this should motivate me most to be evangelistically involved so others can share in this life. I really think this was closer to the motivator in the early church rather than being motivated by fear of endless torment whether they believed in it or not. I admit that I am not loving my neighbor as I should when I don't share such a great salvation...

If you look into the bible and history, you see how God restores certain truths in various generations. In Ezra’s and Nehemiah’s time – the reading of the law and rebuilding a country based on those principles, other times – proclaiming repentance and judgment. Martian Luther, restoration of the doctrine of salvation, Great awakenings – repentance and during Moody, Spurgon’s time, etc… restoration of fundamental doctrines.

So what is the focus today and is there a shift coming? Is there a turning of the page on the faith journey focus to another? Most likely…

People in all era’s in history do not know what sin is and spend long hours in self justification of it. God is calling them on it in all generations. Sin is cosmic treason against God. All sin misses the mark of the high calling God had for humanity. The other day on the news, Fox, shown a video clip on an TV Show in the UK where a woman stated it is merciful loving act to place a pillow over her disabled child faces to kill it, so it would not have to suffer. We now are calling evil like this good and good, not doing this, evil.

Her argument epitomizes the debate on this thread. For God to put a pillow over a wayward eternal being, snuffing out the gift of life he gave into non-being, to avoid them having to suffer his wrath causes God to commit sin. God will not do this. A little sin leavens the whole lump and that is why it must be contained, eternally, justly, without partiality.

Allowing one set of eternal beings to live eternally and another, to be eternally snuffed out into oblivion proves God indeed shows partiality. God providing choice, and with that choice violating a free will bent on sinning justly granting them opportunity to respond to that choice offered, involves true act of justice and shows no partiality. A mortal person then is either sealed in their sin or set free from it, without partiality, preparing their place in eternity.

Why is Hell eternal? - Because sin continues inside an eternal being once awakened to their eternal state and full knowledge of God. You reading this may not fully grasp what I mean by this, but coming to know God fully, in one’s sinful state would keep cosmic treason ongoing by misusing the attributes of God’s goodness against God. Playing God's eternal attributes against themselves... Temptiing, provoking God's goodness, justice, love thru moral wranglings ... Heaven turned into, well like it is on this mortal earth but worse...

One challenge is this – God hates suffering so he must snuff out into non-being and commit treason against his own life giving nature and his own impartiality to satisfy human beings, and let the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Gacy, Dahmer, off the hook ever so lightly.
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For God to put a pillow over a wayward eternal being, snuffing out the gift of life he gave into non-being, to avoid them having to suffer his wrath causes God to commit sin.

I don't think I indicated that God would just annihilate people without any punishment for their sins. I just disagree with your arguments that God, according to your view of this character, must be commited to everyone living eternally either in heavenly bliss or eternal torment. I believe God can be very true to Himself by giving us payment for what we sow and also terminate our existence altogether. You appear to see us as all being eternal (as in forever existing) beings but I do not. I see the term 'eternal' in many ways referring to an age or period that does not mean eternal in the sense that God always was and always will be. I think there is danger in us determining how God must be and must act according to our understandings of what He is all about. You think I have Him figured out wrong and I think you have Him figured out wrong on this issue.

Anyway, I doubt that either of us are 'hell fire' evangelists in the way we present the Gospel. It appears that my posts might have been perceived as placing a guilt trip on people who believe in never ending torment and don't live in a way that I think would be in accord with such a belief. I didn't intend to do this but rather to express what I think would be a natural outcome of such a belief.

Perhaps you will provide a response to why you think eternal torment was not used by the early church in their evangelism. So far, no one will address this issue. My view is they didn't because they didn't believe it.

God did not create us in order to burden us with the fate of everyone else but rather to know Him, and fellowship with Him.

I guess my question would be, how could we know Him and fellowship with Him and not be burdened with the things that burden His heart?

What is the point of loving others? It is immulating the same selfless heart that Christ had for us. to seek and save that which is lost. So, our loving others is rooted in seeing them won to Christ.

If the church or individual is lacking in their heart to reach the lost, I can't see why they shouldn't feel guilt. I agree there is a lot of misguided ideas out there that abuse this, and manipulate people with guilt and shame.

Or we're taking on too much (or even too little) personal responsibility and assuming that God isn't in control with a plan sufficient to meet the needs of others.

The root of responsibility is response. I agree that many take a very twisted self-sourced approach towards evangelism. However, if we are responding to God, then we are available to be used of Him to accomplish His plans. Eph 2:10 We are woven into the plan of God through His design. Just as Philip was woven into the life of the Ethiopian. It isn't about methods but is about sourcing. Philip was sourced by God. He didn't have some new fangled evangelism program. He was simply in the will of God. If this were the case for believers we'd see a lot more genuine evangelism. However, this usually comes at an inconvenience. Most of us are operating under our individual agenda. Persuing our lives, our will, etc. So, evangelism is a detour, an inconvenience.

I understand what Bart is saying. I see two extremes. All the hyper evangelism which usually manifest in methods and programs and hell fire preaching. And then the opposite where people are self absorbed in seeking their relationship with God. Jesus was all about others. And you can't be intimate with Him without arriving at this same position. No one had a more intimate relationship with God than He, and His life was all about spilling himself out for others.

Evangelism is first and foremost our response to God, because we love Him, and because we love Him, we love those he loves.

Evangelism motivated by guilt and shame focused upon how we perform may seem to be effective in terms of getting a job done, but in the end such a motivation changes the message we present to the world. God is Love.

Sadly, there are organizations and institutions that have figured out that guilt and shame are effective strategies in motivating people to be directed into their desired programs, performance patterns and to bring about action quickly. They rationalize (when they think about it) that the ends justify the means in this regard.

I stand by what I said earlier. All or nothing rationales are a product of an approach of philosophy that isn't always healthy.

I love my children and want them to eat. I don't however, spend all my efforts in meeting that need even though it's a responsibility. It's one responsibility amidst a myriad of others in a balanced life. What I do to feed them I count as a joy because I love them and am glad to be able to meet their needs.

Evangelism is much the same. I love God, and I love others, and as such I'm glad to personally and vicariously at times through my financial support, do my part to give the good news. All or nothing scenarios that ask me to believe that God is unhappy with me, limited by me and angry or upset with me because I'm not performing as He wants, usually come from people with motives that blur the lines between what God wants and what they want (eg. Money, power, a sense of importance, a sense of being better than others and more spiritual, participation in their church or program etc.)

That may seem harsh to some. I speak from experience however that these types of elements are present far more often than they're recognized. They're subtle. Even outwardly good things can be done from less than pure motives. I'm by no means perfect or above and beyond these things in my own life. I do choose however whenever I can, through thought and focus, to make love for God and others the motivator in my service and reject the manipulations of what so often is a false guilt or shame coming from a source that has their own stake in my performance and doesn't recognize that, choosing instead to look to force my response.

Thanks jlay, you made some of what I was getting at much better than I did.

I ran into a good friend today that spends most of his awake hours spreading the Gospel through a tract ministry, which many today think is outdated and/or primarily ineffective. He shared some of his latest experiences and told me of this lady he had given a tract to and witnessed to years ago and just recently met her again at the same location. She expressed how thankful she was and how that little tract was what lead her to receiving Christ and now is an active Christian in a local church. He hands out thousands upon thousands of Gospel tracts and has many open doors to proclaim the Gospel.

I often marvel at the love he has for anyone and everyone and desire to see them come to Christ. When I stop and reflect on my life, I see much selfishness in attitude and need to have more of God's love operating in my heart. This fellow keeps a fairly loose involvement with the local church as an institution. He is not into any doing evangelism as a duty rather than as a joyful mission. He views the local church more as a place for believer growth and evangelism to be done outside the church walls. I agree with this view and believe this is what Jesus modelled. We are primarily to bring people first to the Kingdom and then to the local church. Well, I guess that is another topic.

jlay, IMO, there is so much truth in what you just posted. May the love of Christ truly grip our hearts so we can see our fellow man as Christ sees him. Not to operate out of guilt or any sense of imposed obligation but rather to allow the love of God to flow through us as we workout our salvation.

Sudsy wrote:

For God to put a pillow over a wayward eternal being, snuffing out the gift of life he gave into non-being, to avoid them having to suffer his wrath causes God to commit sin.

I don't think I indicated that God would just annihilate people without any punishment for their sins. I just disagree with your arguments that God, according to your view of this character, must be commited to everyone living eternally either in heavenly bliss or eternal torment. I believe God can be very true to Himself by giving us payment for what we sow and also terminate our existence altogether. You appear to see us as all being eternal (as in forever existing) beings but I do not. I see the term 'eternal' in many ways referring to an age or period that does not mean eternal in the sense that God always was and always will be. I think there is danger in us determining how God must be and must act according to our understandings of what He is all about. You think I have Him figured out wrong and I think you have Him figured out wrong on this issue.

Anyway, I doubt that either of us are 'hell fire' evangelists in the way we present the Gospel. It appears that my posts might have been perceived as placing a guilt trip on people who believe in never ending torment and don't live in a way that I think would be in accord with such a belief. I didn't intend to do this but rather to express what I think would be a natural outcome of such a belief.

Perhaps you will provide a response to why you think eternal torment was not used by the early church in their evangelism. So far, no one will address this issue. My view is they didn't because they didn't believe it.

Here is something more to consider from the bible:

Revelation 21:27 - But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

Revelation 22:14, 15 - Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

Revelation 20:15 - And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. NKJV

This does not speak of a time when punishment / recompense will cease, or those outside can enter back in, or even those outside ceasing to be...They will never enter... Fact that they are mentioned reveals that what Jesus says in Matthew 25 is true - punishment is eternal for eternal beings...

God must be true to himself - or He is not God. Sin tires its best to convict God of wrong doing...

God can do as he pleases and take away the spirit of life and cause us to cease but He does not as that is not his nature or character to do. Armed with this knowledge about God, is how Satan acheived rebellion and seeks to overthrow God.

I am thankful that God sent Jesus to warn us and save us, justly, and will not violate/deny who and what He is. In this, we can rely on the Lord and not ourselves – A God so Holy, Pure, Perfect, and not moved. That is someone we can love and become united with. He is trust worthy! Amen

I base what I have written on the word of God – not how I want to view God. The Bible reveals who He is and how He remains true to himself – unmoving in that. It is humanity that tries to tell God what is fair but few dare explore what is fair for God. I pose – what is fair for God based on who he is as revealed in the bible, not my opinion. In doing so, the majesty of God is more edifying than our concept of what makes unfair or harsh.

Not arguing with you at all - only trying to help people see a glimpse of God's Glory...

Our glory falls way short...as it must exposed by His great Light...
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I do consider these verses but interpret them to have somewhat of a different implication regarding endless torment than you. Verse such as John 3:16 that does not say the opposite of eternal life is eternal torment but rather 'shall not perish' and Romans 6:23 - the wages of sin is 'death' and the opposite is 'eternal life'. And I could go on and on with verses that suggest an end to the unbeliever. I do not believe everyone will be resurrected to receive an immortal body.

I find it interesting that you repeat this phrase 'God must be true to himself - or He is not God' when arguing your view. I could suggest the same that God must be true to Himself by destroying what He made that will not accept His gift of salvation. 'He giveth and He taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord'. Again, it is our perceptions on what about God causes God to act accordingly.

I do agree that punishment is eternal in the sense that it has a permanent effect. The fire is not quenched as nothing can put it out until it accomplishes it's purpose of destruction.

I pose – what is fair for God based on who he is as revealed in the bible, not my opinion.

I pose, this to be your interpretation of God and therefore, how He will ultimately punish for sin.

I,too, don't want to get into an extended argument over our interpretations but from my perspective God's glory is wonderfully displayed without any need for endless torment. So, I guess we agree to disagree.

Sudsy wrote:I do consider these verses but interpret them to have somewhat of a different implication regarding endless torment than you. Verse such as John 3:16 that does not say the opposite of eternal life is eternal torment but rather 'shall not perish' and Romans 6:23 - the wages of sin is 'death' and the opposite is 'eternal life'. And I could go on and on with verses that suggest an end to the unbeliever. I do not believe everyone will be resurrected to receive an immortal body.

I find it interesting that you repeat this phrase 'God must be true to himself - or He is not God' when arguing your view. I could suggest the same that God must be true to Himself by destroying what He made that will not accept His gift of salvation. 'He giveth and He taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord'. Again, it is our perceptions on what about God causes God to act accordingly.

I do agree that punishment is eternal in the sense that it has a permanent effect. The fire is not quenched as nothing can put it out until it accomplishes it's purpose of destruction.

I pose – what is fair for God based on who he is as revealed in the bible, not my opinion.

I pose, this to be your interpretation of God and therefore, how He will ultimately punish for sin.

I,too, don't want to get into an extended argument over our interpretations but from my perspective God's glory is wonderfully displayed without any need for endless torment. So, I guess we agree to disagree.

Very well put Sudsy.
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Throwing this out for consideration.

Jesus only addressed his comments regarding hell toward religious people, not "sinners." Why might that be?

Hi Sudsy!

Sudsy wrote:I see the term 'eternal' in many ways referring to an age or period that does not mean eternal in the sense that God always was and always will be.

I see you are starting to come up with the correct counter argument for your beliefs. But you are using the wrong scriptures and even the ones that would best defend your beliefs do not mean an end to existence at all. But as I said, applying that reasoning to God, Heaven, His Laws, His Promises, the bible etc, ends in there being no God...period. If you are going to believe in God, then he always existed. I assure you, using your reasoning and applying it to the bible will make it impossible for you to represent God and not have the discussion end with God’s word losing and looking foolish....And God does not do foolish. I know their are many things involved with how you feel, and some of the feelings have good intent. But God’s word is God’s word. If we say we are a Christian (and it is true) then God holds us to a much higher standard then the unsaved and will judge us according to that standard.

If the unsaved claim to be Christian but do not accept Jesus as their God. And their false Christianity is nothing more than a tool they use to protect their own fears and their own selfish agenda so that they can have comfort for their sins while at the same time deceiving God’s creation than they will have much to answer for. This is not a game, we are dealing with a real, Loving God here as well as where people will spend eternity. I am not saying you are doing this, but there are those that do. It would be best for those fake or selfish Christians to keep their mouth shut rather than mislead God’s creation so they can be comfortable in their own sins. That is not for anyone that is not guilty and not necessarily anyone in this thread.

I feel that maybe you are believing these things without really taking a close look at how what you are saying relates to numerous scriptures and countless factors. The bible is clear concerning the fact that hell and the punishment in hell last forever. The flames of hell are not eternal for no reason, they are eternal because there is always something to burn. The unsaved have to be alive to account for the loss of eternal life, theirs and possibly aiding in the loss of others eternal life or even many others. For causing the loss of eternal life, one will receive eternal punishment, and they will live to take account for their crimes. There are no loopholes and no way out of it. That is God’s law, we will all take responsibility for our actions. Neither B.W, the countless theologians , pastors, profits or I etc are telling you or anyone what we feel. We are telling you (best we can) what the bible says. Can we be wrong, along with countless others, who have said that the unsaved are tormented in hell for all eternity because the bible makes it perfectly clear? No, I seriously doubt it...that’s what it say’s, all one has to do is be willing to see it. As B.W said earlier. What matters is what's best for God, because he knows what’s best for all. I gave several reasons for Why the punishment in hell is eternal just as B.W has. But as far as the bible is concerned, there is no question about if the unsaved are tormented for all eternity. The only question is why...And really, it does not matter one bit what we think. Even if we play with words or scriptures and convince ourselves that hell does not exist-The unsaved will still live there forever. It does not matter if one can win an argument against a Christian etc. It’s God’s word, not ours.

Sudsy wrote:Perhaps you will provide a response to why you think eternal torment was not used by the early church in their evangelism. So far, no one will address this issue. My view is they didn't because they didn't believe it.

Concerning the disciples not talking on hell often? Did you see the scriptures I gave from Jesus? The whole bible is the book of God but there is no book within the bible called the book of Jesus. That means that everything that is written in the new testament was taught by the disciples. They repeat what Jesus told them, meaning that they brought up hell a lot. Everything concerning hell in the new testament was written and taught by the disciples. And regardless of that fact, if Jesus said it than is does not matter what anyone else said. I did not address the point because I thought it was clear.

But as I said, talk of hell is not my preferred way to help others help themselves. But the question was asked, I answered.

Guilt Trip?

What is all this talk of guilt...(smile). People feel guilty when they sin, that is natural. And many of them cover their guilt with more sin, lies and excuses and cause harm to those around them because of their need to sin and have it be ok. Some would go so far as to destroy God’s word and his servants completely, just so they can be comfortable in their sins, it has been done and it continues today. Those Christians who are guilty are guilty because of their own actions and inability to allow God to remove their guilt for reasons clear only to God and the guilty. Those who are unsaved and feel guilt are right to do so, Indeed, we are all guilty and need Jesus to release our guilt. If we keep our guilt it becomes fear and our fears cause us to act selfishly and cause much harm to others. It destroys families, churches, kills, manipulates, abuses and brings about complete ruin and chaos. I know this well and so do many here...it destroys love and joy and life and leaves only death.

The only way to stop the destruction is to face our guilt and fears head on, be honest with ourselves for why we feel the guilt, and allow God to help us make a change. If we cover our guilt with lies, excuses and have a need to keep our guilt because the cause of that guilt gives us comfort, even if that cause is bad (such as you killed someone by mistake etc) then the guiltily (not those things that trigger guilt) will cause the guiltily not only self destruction, but their guilty conscience will harm others, they will bring about destruction because of their own need to hold on to guilt or their inability to release their guilt.

I do my best to deliver God’s word in a way that I feel is best for the given situation. I say what God said concerning hell. My motives (and I know you guy’s are not attacking me, Admin‘s and jlay) come from a sincere heart. Much of what I say comes from experience. And I give to others because I love it and because I know much of God’s love. If I can help people (with God’s guidance) be free of pain, depression, heart break, keep love in their life, save relationships that suffer from misunderstanding, guilt and a need to cover that guilt so the guiltily do not have to accept their wrong then I will do it. The pain of accepting one’s wrong doing will last for a short time but the results of accepting responsibility will add much good to their life.

No one makes me feel guilty if their is no wrong in my heart. All who feel guilty do so for a reason and just as feeling pain from touching fire is good, as it will save you from further destruction, feeling guilt for your wrong doing, should you seek to stop the pain, will save you from further destruction. Trust me when I tell you that I would never knowingly or intentionally cause harm to God’s creation for my own gain. I have been the recipient of this kind of treatment and would never do it to others. I can see pretty deep into matters of the heart and if I know I can help and do not than God will hold me accountable for my guilt. We may not always want to accept something but when we are caught in our own web of denial, we struggle to find away out, either lies or the truth. If we do not accept that our web binds us so we can feed on our own desires, despite God’s word, then we will remain entwined in a web that will lead to destruction. If not hell (because you are saved) then emotional, financial, damaged relationships etc. And for the unsaved, it will lead to hell.

Those who are free from a particular situation (web) are free because of God’s mercy. And it is right to allow God to use us to help free others from their web. That is all I am doing here. And if what I say makes any of you feel guilty than confront yourselves. You own your own guilt and I account for mine. But you are free to ask me questions concerning the nature of your guilt, maybe a PM.

J. Davis, I see you have completely mis-understood the point I was making regarding the word 'eternal'.

The bible is clear concerning the fact that hell and the punishment in hell last forever.

Again, although I respect your zeal and conviction on what you believe, it is still, IMO, your interpretation of what the Bible makes clear regarding never-ending punishment. Regardless of whether or not the majority in Christianity believe in never-ending torment or not, does not make it fact. Many and perhaps most believers up until the reformation did not believe in a salvation by grace alone but most of us believe them to be wrong.

That means that everything that is written in the new testament was taught by the disciples. They repeat what Jesus told them, meaning that they brought up hell a lot.

Really ? You know that to be a fact even though you have no examples of this in the Acts of the apostles or any of the letters Paul wrote. Don't you wonder why such an important issue was not made adamantly clear in the NT writings by the apostles and their instructions to the early churches ? Sounds like speculation to me. It is one thing to interpret scriptures a certain way but this is reading into what happened that is not found in scripture. If we are to speculate on what really did occur, I can speculate that what Jesus said did not cause them to preach a 'hell fire' message and so it appears that what they interpreted from what He said regarding never-ending torment was something other than what you interpret.

I think it is easy for some just to write-off people who disagree with never-ending torment as basing their beliefs on sentimental feelings, regardless of what scriptural support they use. And some may think those who believe in never-ending torment but live basically uncaring lives are reflecting very cold feelings toward the lost. So, feelings aside, and just looking at what scripture does record, I think there is ample interpretive support for an end to punishment. You chose to see this differently.

I haven't brought this up but why is it that when we talk of the unsaved being judged we only think of punishment ? In other words, is this not saying that a good living Buddhist ot Atheist who may have more good works than most Christians and has given his/her life sacrifically to serving others will not merit anything for this way of living but instead will only receive a punishment in never-ending torment ? Is this how you view God and how He MUST hand out justice because that is just the way He is and must be true to Himself ? I prefer to just leave this with God as my understandings may just have some big holes that I someday will find quite embarassing. God just might surprise some of us and after they recognize Him as Lord in a way and at a point in time we never expected could happen, their good deeds might merit them more reward than many Christians. Whoa, now I'm really thinking outside the box. I guess such thoughts would make me a heretic and worthy of burning at the stake in times past. Hope there is no extreme right, terrorist Christians reading this or I may be in trouble. Well, I better shut up for now.

Anyway, God bless you eternal torment believers and IMO, whats most important is we become more and more like Jesus so we do have the mind of Christ operating in us so we can fulfill the mission He has given us.

Sudsy and Bav regard what you posted to me...

We were fashioned in whose image and likeness? We are not exact duplicates of God or another god. We were fashioned in His eternal image – that is why bible declares God places eternity in our hearts at birth and what he does forever as well as God will not take away life (your living spirit); that the bible declares God as the living God more than able to perform and keep his word, not renege on his giving and promises. That what God does regarding these matter endures forever.

If God designed human beings as not being eternal beings then we were not fashioned in his eternal image and Genesis 1:26, 27 is untrue. God would be reneging on what he gave mankind, as well as his promise in Genesis. God would be unjust and unable to perform his word and keep his promise (declaration) as well....

God favoring one group with becoming an eternal being and another group disfavored by denying them the same by blasting such off into non-being – makes God show partiality: Bible says, God is impartial.

What you and Bav state, makes God show true absolute partiality. How can God be truly impartial by sending one off into oblivion of non-being, remain true to his word, gifts (givings) and promises?

Explain how before citing that I am in error…

Does your doctrine cause God to disprove any of his attributes?

Back to this question: How can God be truly impartial by sending one off into oblivion of non-being and another not and remain true to his word, gifts (givings) and promises? Response: By Both made with eternity in their hearts,not denying this to either and both given equal opportunity to decide where each wants to spend that eternality: That is Just/ justice.

To be otherwise proves contradiction and the bible untrue in its declarations about God.

As for John 3:14, 15, 16 – perish/destruction means ruin – brought to a place of ruin. It is either Eternal Life with God in heaven forever under his terms or eternal life lived in eternal ruin is what is being conveyed here. This lines up with what Jesus taught on Hell. In fact notice John 3:18, 19, 20, 21 and use of word condemn (judge in NASB) – it does not imply at all in any way or mean – non-existence. It infers a life eternally condemn to live in continual ruin in a place as Jesus stated in Matthew 25:41.

People wrongly imply that perish is only limited to non-being – it does not. I think of the two criminals who in Connecticut robbed, raped, tortured, burned, killed a mother and her two daughters, the father tortured but managed to escape. When they are sent to be executed or die in prison, non-being is too easy an escape for them as that proves that in reality there are no true consequences for ones actions but rather an escape from consequences. Final Justice without lasting consequences is not Justice. Is God a God of Justice or Not? What does the bible say?

It is also due to his great love that makes His justice – just. Granting one either life with Him in his full glory revealed, or life without Him lived in ruin as that is how they responded to his love, rejecting it, and despising Him such that do this are banished forever away from God to a doom of eternal perishing, ruin, where how they destroyed others lives, as well as their own, is meted back in equal forums of destruction. That is what is meant by destruction.

That is more to be feared than non-being as non-being provides escape from God’s eternal justice of wrath. The torment one feels, is recognition of what they rejected, exchanging the truth about God for a lie. You may think your idea of God’s Love as preventing him from inflicting eternal wrath. It does not. It is the fury of love, rejected, scorned, mocked, manipulated that cast the rejecters away to a place where they serve an eternal life sentence in the mire they made of life (this life given to them) reaping what they have sown.

This is not unjust to them, nor do such undergoing it view it as unjust because they understand God and eternity better than you (Trust me, you will someday understand this fully as will all people but for now – let’s continue). Non-being is unjust for a just loving God to inflict. God could do this, but does not, due to his love that defines his justice and justice that defines his love. God remains true to himself, showing no partiality, fore without him all things would cease. Truly a God of the living! The Living God!!!

God’s kind of Love would not make life cease to exist, nor deny setting before one a clear choice. Such love will not be partial, and it will not act unjustly. His love would keep all promises, givings, callings, and be perfect to all.

Such love would grant one what they desire: if they despise God and reject him – he grants them their request banished away forever from him in the ruin and brands of destruction they impose. Love can and does inflict wrath upon enemies after much long suffering patience has proven the enemies unrepentant in a manner just and fair to them as well.

Love would grant such enemies life of banishment, not non-existence. Such love takes not away life into a non-being state as love would cease being love if it did. God is true to himself and all his ways. His love is greater than ours and cannot be measured by our idealistic mortal view of love.

Such love warns us to flee the Wrath to come, provides the grace by which one is forgiven and changed, provides the call – the choice when before there was none to escape the hopelessness of sin’s enslaving rule. Sealing them for a bright future, working in them to transform them out of darkness into light back as was before the fall. Or such love permits one to freely reject all this granting them the ruin they impose. Such Love does not seek its own way over another.

It is up to you to prove how your doctrine does not violate God’s justice, impartiality, gifts, callings, and promises, yes even his own love. Measured against God’s attributes, your doctrine causes God to deny himself and act contrary to himself in many diverse ways and disproving the bible as true along the way.

So the challenge is this:

God favoring one group with becoming an eternal being and another group disfavored by denying them the same by blasting such off into non-being – makes God show partiality: Bible says, God is impartial.

How can God be truly impartial by sending one off into oblivion of non-being and another not, and remain true to his word, gifts (givings) and promises, yes even to his own love?

What I share does not violate God’s impartiality but rather makes it known as true…

Yours???

Hmmmm????
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