B. W. wrote:Dictionary of New Testament Theology, by Verbrugge, defines faith / believing and its root meaning denoted faithfulness that comes from what one places faith in. Verbrugge goes on to show how the Hebrew word for believe -faith stressed reliability, remaining true, dependability. So Faith in God in the Hebrew sense meant to be fully persuaded in God's reliability, remaining true, dependability that it changes the course of one's personal life to likewise be reliable, true, dependable towards God.
Do you really want to get into a source war?
In any case, Verbrugge is wrong. There is a difference in the word "faith" and the word "faithful" or "faithfulness."
Pisteuo, the verb form of the noun for "faith" means "to believe" or "to put trust in." It does not mean "to be faithful." The fact that a cognate word means "faithfulness" doesn't mean
pisteuo means "to be faithful." That would be a fallacy called
illegitimate totality transfer, humorously illustrated with this part of the old joke,
"The Hermeneutics of a Stop Sign":
- A seminary-educated evangelical preacher might look up "STOP" in his lexicons of English and discover that it can mean: 1) something that prevents motion, such as a plug for a drain, or a block of wood that prevents a door from closing; 2) a location where a train or bus lets off passengers. The main point of his sermon the following Sunday on this text is: When you see a stop sign, it is a place where traffic is naturally clogged, so it is a good place to let off passengers from your car.
With reference to the Hebrew, Verbrugge is right insofar as the meaning of
aman. The root idea is certainty. Abraham, in Gen 15:6, was certain that God could do what He promised, and therefore, God saved him. That has nothing to do with whether or not Abraham, though, would become dependable. Abraham declared God dependable; God did not declare Abraham dependable. It is very dangerous to say that we are saved when we declare ourselves dependable, which is what your interpretation of "faith" would mean here.
Abraham believed God it was account to him righteousness Romans 4:3. What did that do to Abraham? Was he passive or active? Did he live according to what he Believed?
Yes, he did. Look at your own words, BW. He lived ACCORDING TO what he believed. That statement presupposes belief. It is, however, just as possible that he could have not lived ACCORDING TO what he believed. Lot is just one such example. He didn't live according to his faith (look how he ended up!). But he is listed in Hebrews as being righteous . . .
How we live, BW, has nothing to do with whether or not we really believed. Many will say on that day, "Lord, Lord", we did lots of things for You . . .
Are we called to be conformed into the image of Christ or remain comfortably numb sitting on our blessed assurances?
We are absolutely called to be conformed to the image of Christ. Are you suggesting that if we do not allow ourselves to be conformed, then we go to Hell?
Dictionary of New Testament Theology, Verbrugge, Points this out:
“Pistis as faith in God stood for a theoretical conviction. But stress was laid on the belief that life was constituted in accordance with this conviction.”
Dictionary of New Testament Theology goes on to show how Neo-Platonism came and gave Faith a new definition:
“Neo-Platonism had a materialized concept of faith that called for a definite, intellectualistic conviction, which was conditioned by tradition…”
Jac, you appear to hold dear to the Neo-Platonic concept of faith.
Actually, I hold to an Aristotelian view of faith, but that's another story. Whether Aristotelian or Neo-Platonic or whatever means nothing. The question is whether or not it is biblical. As I already discussed with TM, the basic meaning of
pisteuo is "to trust."
And, for what it is worth, the Bible disproves your definition of faith as commitment. John 12:42 has men who John expressly says believed, and yet they didn't have a "life constituted in accordance with this conviction."
What Gab and others here are saying is one: simple believing in Christ / God's reliability, his remaining true, his dependability, his loyal fidelity in what he accomplished ALONE saves, within this, this then affects ones course of life to learn how to be likewise loyal, dependable, reliable, true to God.
If Gabe is saying you can lose your salvation, he is saying a lot more than that. Certainly, believing in Jesus makes you a new man, which allows you to live differently. Only then can you walk according to the Spirit. But believing the Gospel doesn't mean you WILL walk according to the Spirit, and refusing to walk according to the Spirit, contrary to Gabe, does NOT mean that you will lose your salvation. John 3:16 guarantees that.
In fact the New Testament teaches this: Gal 4:19 -- Romans 8:29 -- John 17:19, 23, 26 -- 1 Corinthians 15:49 -- 2 Corinthians 3:18 —- Eph 1:4 —- Eph 4:24 —- Col 3:10 —- Romans 13:14 -— 1 John 2:29 in fact read all of 1 John for more details.
BW, you're a nice guy, but listing a ton of verses doesn't do anything to help you. If you think any of those disproves my argument, then explain how. I'm not going to offer an exegesis of each one of those, line by line, hoping to try to see your point in there somewhere. Obviously, I believe everyone of those verses.
I find it telling that in all the verses you mention, you don't deal with the points I've already made about John 3:16.
This is not terrifying Jac, but the process and walk of the Christian life that the bible proclaims. Simple believing is but the start. True believing / faith is a journey of transformation. These are not works that keep one saved but rather what God himself predestined us who believe to be conformed into Rom 8:29). What I hear you say is this: the journey of transformation is uselessly unimportant to God, just believe and become comfortably numb is the only thing acceptable to God.
Can you show me ANYWHERE in Scripture where the word "true" is used to describe "faith"? Or where "false" or "spurious" is use to describe faith? Hint: the Bible doesn't do that. You theologians do.
What is terrifying is not the Christian walk. What is terrifying is the idea that so many Christians put forward that in order to be saved, you must live the Christian life. If that is true, then NONE OF US ARE SAVED. Do you always live the Christian life, BW? Are you living it fully enough? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the standard is nothing short of Jesus Himself. Can you say you meet that standard? Can you HONESTLY say you are living the Christian life?
Please. It's the height of arrogance to say you are. None of us are. That, my friend, is the grace of God - the grace upon grace.
Your view of believing, faith is in line with strict tradition that according to the Dictionary of New Testament Theology, by Verbrugge, points out is based solely on… “Neo-Platonism (that) had a materialized concept of faith that called for a definite, intellectualistic conviction, which was conditioned by tradition…”
That is what you appear to be in essence teaching — the Neo-Platonic view of faith, not the life altering kind of faith the bible teaches.
Already dealt with this . . .
Is that true? Are you totally against faith that changes ones direction and course of life? Why is that so terrifying?
UNTIL I GET AN APOLOGY FOR THIS LINE, YOU AND I WILL HAVE NOTHING MORE TO SAY ON THIS SUBJECT. I am HIGHLY offended at this. Where did I once say or imply that I am against living the Christian life? WHERE?
I didn't. This is nothing more than a dirty debate tactic. It's despicable.
What I am against is saying that if you DON'T change you life, then you haven't believed.
Remember, we are not saying nor teaching salvation by works but rather that true heartfelt faith will change one's life during each person's Omnipersonal journey with the Lord. Like Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Matthew, Peter, Paul, Luke, Phoebe, Timothy, etc & etc…Like the New Testament reveals, we are not afraid to proclaim it for fear of being misunderstood. We know that He who Began a good work in a person will complete it - that's faith!
Faith that does not alter one's life is not true conviction in what the Lord has done…alone…
Philippians 1:6
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What makes you think the good work in Phil 1:6 is personal salvation? Did you notice that the "you" was plural? Did you notice that Paul was talking about their fellowship in the Gospel with him - referring to their financial support of him? Did you notice that the good work that God was doing, He would continue to do until Jesus comes back? I don't think any of those Philippian saints are still alive to be growing in Christ, do you?
The good work is not their salvation or sanctification, BW. You're a smart guy. I'll let you figure it out.
Now, I'll say the same thing to you that I've said to everyone: until you are willing to put down your pride and accept that the ONLY thing you can do is just trust Jesus to save you, with COMPLETE DISREGARD TO ANYTHING YOU HAVE DONE OR WILL EVER DO--just faith, that is trust, alone, BW--until you do that, you can't say you believe the Gospel.