Evidence for God from Science

I think we focus too much on the mechanics of things and fail to focus upon the organic living nature of a relationship with a living God.

Much of systematic theology, while a beneficial practice to some extent, in my opinion, pushes the Bible into the context of Greek Philosophy and Roman Law and can draw things out that were never intended by the original authors or understood by the original audience.

It also results at times in the book of the Bible being elevated and placed upon a pedestal as the primary focus of Christians without the primary relationship and focus upon Christ whom it points too.

I believe in the Bible and affirm plenary inspiration, but I make that statement never the less.

Byblos wrote:What I DID mean by buzzwords is your claim that you know the future. That, sir, is a blatantly false statement and where you are denying the obvious truth, which is that NO ONE can know the future, unless of course they have received a special revelation from God. If you did receive such a direct revelation then my apologies, I am talking to the wrong person. But if you didn't then to claim you know the future is disingenuous at best.

Honestly, I have not and do not claim to know the future beyond what God has revealed in His infallible word.

What I am saying for the umpteenth time is if a person genuinely believes he has eternal life then at the time he does have absolute assurance, so far so good. If he later proves that he never had it to begin with (by apostatizing), then his absolute assurance was no assurance at all. And once again, this leaves us with 2 types of assurances:
1) Absolute assurance IRRESPECTIVE of actions post-belief, even becoming an apostate (this is if you do not believe Christians can lose their salvation)
2) A moral assurance because it is possible for one to lose their salvation or prove they never had it.
I know you don't believe 2) is possible, which leaves you with one and only one option. It is truly beyond me why this is so difficult to see.

truthman wrote:As far as assurance, I quoted Scripture: 1 John 5:13 & 2 Timothy 1:12 along with others and that is what I believe and where I stand. You gave no direct scriptural support for your conclusions.

And once again, my argument is not with scripture, it is with your understanding of its implications.

A person who has truly "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" may have complete and absolute assurance because it is totally based upon the infallible word of God. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13) It clearly says that a person who truly believes may know that he has eternal life. That is not my interpretation but a straightforward rendering of the text. That is not a claim on my part to know the future, but a statement that I believe the word of God. To say that a person who has truly believed cannot know for certain that he has eternal life is to contradict Scripture.

A person who has not truly "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" may think or say that he has assurance, but it is not founded on the infallible word of God, and is therefore a false belief. Knowing that you have eternal life is clearly conditional on genuine faith, and it is therefore incumbent upon anyone claiming to know they have eternal life to examine themselves as to whether they be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5)

Canuckster1127 wrote:

sinnerbybirth wrote:Not to sound ignorant. But, is there a difference in everlasting vs eternal?

Depends on context. Eternal means with no beginning and no end. Everlasting can means there is a definite beginning but no end.

In the context of salvation the terms are often interchangable and the implication is that once salvation takes place in a person's life it cannot be taken from them or even surrendered willingly.

Quite correct.
I might add that they are used interchangeably (John 3:15 & John 3:16 for example) with respect to the new birth because when a person is born of God he receives the life of God in the resurrection of Jesus Christ which is eternal (without beginning or end). It is also called everlasting because it lasts forever from the moment it is received.

So therefore, truthman, you think it is impossible to lose "true faith"? Too bad Jesus Himself says otherwise. And too bad there are numerous real-life examples of dedicated Christians losing their faith (e.g. Bart Ehrman).

As Byblos has said, there are really only two options:

1) Drop the doctrine of eternal assurance (ignores John 3:16 and over 150 other verses)

2) Embrace the belief that it is possible to lose faith, fall into sin, and still go to Heaven

smiley wrote:So therefore, truthman, you think it is impossible to lose "true faith"? Too bad Jesus Himself says otherwise. And too bad there are numerous real-life examples of dedicated Christians losing their faith (e.g. Bart Ehrman).

As Byblos has said, there are really only two options:

1) Drop the doctrine of eternal assurance (ignores John 3:16 and over 150 other verses)

2) Embrace the belief that it is possible to lose faith, fall into sin, and still go to Heaven

Please site your references and make sure they say what you say they say. Don't just say that Jesus said something unless you can prove it.
I base what I say on Scripture. Your claims of real life examples is purely anecdotal. You do not and cannot know what was in their heart and mind to be able to claim absolutely that they once had genuine faith.

truthman wrote: Please site your references and make sure they say what you say they say. Don't just say that Jesus said something unless you can prove it.

Luke 8:13

They believed for "a while". Thus, they had faith at one point and lost it.

Your claims of real life examples is purely anecdotal. You do not and cannot know what was in their heart and mind to be able to claim absolutely that they once had genuine faith.

Nonsense. If someone goes to a Bible college, goes to church every day and prays to Jesus, then it is safe to say that they believe. To deny this would require you to redefine the word "belief".

If you deny this, then how do you know that you "really" believe?

Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Thank you Smiley. That is better.

1. As we study this parable we note first that Jesus said that the seed is representative of the word of God.
2. The ground must refer to the soul including the heart and mind which receives the word of God through reading or hearing.
3. When a person hears or reads the word of God there are 4 different options that Jesus described.
4. The second option which is described in verse 13 is for a person who has a hard heart, as hard as stone, who hears and receives it into his mind and heart, but it does not take root and never produces fruit.
5. The fourth option is described in verse 15 and is clearly a description of a person who receives the word of God and totally accepts it: the person keeps it. That is to say that he totally believes it and puts his faith and trust in it and it takes root and produces fruit.
6. Their is a clear distinction and difference between #2 & #4 from the beginning. It is not a case of #4 who is obviously representative of a true believer turning into a #2. #2 was never a #4.
7. #2 is said to believe for awhile, but his faith is not the same as the faith of #4 because the word of God never took root in his rock hard heart. His rock hard heart resisted the word of God. He obviously only believed with his mind. That is not true faith. That is belief that is only knowledge without trust. This is the same kind of belief that the devils have as described in James 2:19. Romans 10:9-10 makes it clear that a person has to truly believe with all the heart to be saved.

Nonsense. If someone goes to a Bible college, goes to church every day and prays to Jesus, then it is safe to say that they believe. To deny this would require you to redefine the word "belief".
If you deny this, then how do you know that you "really" believe?

I have a pastor friend in Vancouver who went to Bible college, went to church all of his life, and prayed regularly, but came to realize that he had never truly put his faith and trust in Jesus Christ as his personal Saviour until several years after he was out of college and in the ministry. Thankfully, he then did. I have known others as well.

Having grown up in a pastor's home myself and gone to church all of my 57 years, then graduated from Bible college and entered the ministry I understand how it is possible. I saw some in Bible College who showed no fruit of genuine faith, and I have seen it in churches I have pastored. I have also been greatly saddened by hearing many give a false answer as to how to be saved which has led many into a false belief that they were saved, along with those who heard the true way of salvation but had a hard heart and never truly believed with all of their heart.

truthman wrote:Honestly, I have not and do not claim to know the future beyond what God has revealed in His infallible word.

Then you cannot possibly claim that you do have eternal life because you cannot predict the future and cannot be certain that your faith may turn out to be not so genuine. It is a distinct possibility you cannot deny. Now there is a way to make that claim of having eternal life with ABSOLUTE assurance and the ONLY possible way I know of is to TAKE FUTURE EVENTS OUT of the equation. Then and only then can you have absolute assurance. That, my friend, is what absolute assurance means and what OSAS is truly about. Are you ready to accept the implications? If not, then you do not believe in absolute assurance, you just won't admit it.

truthman wrote:A person who has truly "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" may have complete and absolute assurance because it is totally based upon the infallible word of God. "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:13) It clearly says that a person who truly believes may know that he has eternal life. That is not my interpretation but a straightforward rendering of the text. That is not a claim on my part to know the future, but a statement that I believe the word of God. To say that a person who has truly believed cannot know for certain that he has eternal life is to contradict Scripture.

A person who has not truly "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" may think or say that he has assurance, but it is not founded on the infallible word of God, and is therefore a false belief. Knowing that you have eternal life is clearly conditional on genuine faith, and it is therefore incumbent upon anyone claiming to know they have eternal life to examine themselves as to whether they be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5)

And no one will ever know the difference (save for God of course). So anyone may THINK they have true and genuine faith (and absolute assurance as a result), that turns out to be false faith (and no assurance at all). We will keep going in circles until you see that. The only way to have absolute assurance is to believe once. What happens next is irrelevant. Those are the implications of true OSAS, at the heart of which is ABSOLUTE, IRREVOCABLE, NO MATTER WHAT assurance, otherwise it is no assurance at all. Whether or not you want to accept these implications is up to you but they are clear and indisputable.

truthman wrote:

smiley wrote:So therefore, truthman, you think it is impossible to lose "true faith"? Too bad Jesus Himself says otherwise. And too bad there are numerous real-life examples of dedicated Christians losing their faith (e.g. Bart Ehrman).

As Byblos has said, there are really only two options:

1) Drop the doctrine of eternal assurance (ignores John 3:16 and over 150 other verses)

2) Embrace the belief that it is possible to lose faith, fall into sin, and still go to Heaven

Please site your references and make sure they say what you say they say. Don't just say that Jesus said something unless you can prove it.
I base what I say on Scripture. Your claims of real life examples is purely anecdotal. You do not and cannot know what was in their heart and mind to be able to claim absolutely that they once had genuine faith.

Please re-read your own words (what I emphasized above) a few times to yourself truthman; thank you for proving my point. Tell me again how this person who ABSOLUTELY THOUGHT he had absolute assurance, to later discover his faith was not genuine and had no assurance at all. That absolute assurance he had didn't turn out to be so absolute, did it?

Byblos,
No one can know absolutely the heart and mind of someone else. 1 John 5:13 does not say that you can know that another person has eternal life. It does say absolutely and unequivocally that an individual can know himself that he has eternal life.

truthman wrote:Byblos,
No one can know absolutely the heart and mind of someone else. 1 John 5:13 does not say that you can know that another person has eternal life. It does say absolutely and unequivocally that an individual can know himself that he has eternal life.

There is one of 2 possible answers:

1) Of course they do. Because they believe in absolute assurance in the truest sense of the term, independent of their future actions.
or
2) Of course they do. Unless, that is, they find out their faith is not a genuine faith and their assurance was no assurance at all.

Take your pick.

Byblos,
Please pardon my ignorance, but what is the antecedent of "they" in your post?

truthman wrote:Byblos,
Please pardon my ignorance, but what is the antecedent of "they" in your post?

I should have been clearer that I was referring to your second statement

truthman wrote:It does say absolutely and unequivocally that an individual can know himself that he has eternal life.

As to the first statement:

truthman wrote:No one can know absolutely the heart and mind of someone else. 1 John 5:13 does not say that you can know that another person has eternal life.

I am in full agreement.

As I said above:

A person who has not truly "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" may think or say that he has assurance, but it is not founded on the infallible word of God, and is therefore a false belief. Knowing that you have eternal life is clearly conditional on genuine faith, and it is therefore incumbent upon anyone claiming to know they have eternal life to examine themselves as to whether they be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5)

truthman wrote:As I said above:

A person who has not truly "believed on the Lord Jesus Christ" may think or say that he has assurance, but it is not founded on the infallible word of God, and is therefore a false belief. Knowing that you have eternal life is clearly conditional on genuine faith, and it is therefore incumbent upon anyone claiming to know they have eternal life to examine themselves as to whether they be in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5)

I think we've exhausted this angle of the discussion so let me ask you a question from another angle.

You say a person should examine themselves to see whether they be in the faith. My question is, how much testing does it require?