Question about salvation assurance...

[Gabrielman]

Certainly, but even with the Holy Spirit's help its not easy. It is still a struggle for us to live in humility and purity, and to choose His will above our own.

Very true, life is hard sometimes.... well often, and we get tempted away from the will of God by our own short comings!


By the way, I didn't see you come in! Welcome to the forums!!!!!!

[RickD]

RickD,

You believe talking to dead saints and Mary is o.k. because they're not really dead. Why is it any different when you speak to dead people then when someone conducts a seance and attempts to speak with the dead?

I think you just answered you're own question. It's not the same as speaking with the dead, because they are not dead.

And we are not going to a witch to call up a spirit. We are speaking to our victorious brothers and sisters who are in the kingdom of God, and who will never die {St. John 6:50}. They are alive in Christ. Christ has defeated death, and they are in Christ, therefore they have overcome it are are with Him.

how do you know the people that are being contacted in a seance aren't dead saints? If I use a ouiji board to call upon the spirit of my dead relative who died in Christ, how is that different than Priest Joe Schmo calling upon a dead person? It's the practice that is detestable to the Lord. Whether done by me, a witch, a Priest, or anyone else. Please show me in the Bible where it is ok to pray to any physically dead person.

We are speaking to our victorious brothers and sisters who are in the kingdom of God, and who will never die {St. John 6:50}.

But, they did die. John 6:50 isn't talking about physically living forever in this earthly realm.

[RickD]

James, please read this and then tell me where in the Bible we're told it is ok to pray to or ask dead saints to pray for us.http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

[RickD]

This one's a double whammy! Praying to Mary AND asking her to pray for us!

Probably the best known prayer to Our Lady, which is easy to memorize, is the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

[RickD]

Jesus said: Matthew 18:19. Notice He said "on earth",not dead saints, and didn't say "ask my Mother to pray for you".

[Gabrielman]

Jesus said: <a target="_blank" class="lbsBibleRef" href="http://bible.logos.com/passage/nasb/Mat ... 9">Matthew 18:19</a>. Notice He said "on earth",not dead saints, and didn't say "ask my Mother to pray for you".

Hm.... I didn't read through all of the things on this thread, lol maybe I should have as I feel in the dark. Is this about salvation, or prayers to saints? my poor little brain, recently has gone through too much!

Yes, I do not think we should pray to any but the Lord, that is how He told us to pray:

Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.

[JamesScott]

Certainly, but even with the Holy Spirit's help its not easy. It is still a struggle for us to live in humility and purity, and to choose His will above our own.

Very true, life is hard sometimes.... well often, and we get tempted away from the will of God by our own short comings!


By the way, I didn't see you come in! Welcome to the forums!!!!!!

Thanks. I posted an introduction a good while back, but I only just started posting in conversations.

[JamesScott]

RickD,

how do you know the people that are being contacted in a seance aren't dead saints? If I use a ouiji board to call upon the spirit of my dead relative who died in Christ, how is that different than Priest Joe Schmo calling upon a dead person?

Did Jesus defeat death?

But, they did die. John 6:50 isn't talking about physically living forever in this earthly realm.

I know. They are spiritually alive in and with the Lord. That is why we ask them to pray for us.

[JamesScott]

James, please read this and then tell me where in the Bible we're told it is ok to pray to or ask dead saints to pray for us.http://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html

That site made a case how we are not to ask any saint for intercession, yet it turns right around and says we can ask other Christians for prayer. If its asking for intercession for those in heaven, its asking for intercession on earth. Its the same thing.

Jesus Christ defeated death {1 Corinthians 15:54}. Saints are not "dead."

The following Scripture shows our prayers are offered to God by those in heaven.

"Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and the golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the Saints." Revelation 5:8

There are other passages that Protestants would deem non-biblical, but it is in the book of the Bible called 2 Maccabees.

There is no reason why we can ask for each others prayers but not for the prayers of our glorified brothers and sisters in heaven.
Have they ceased to be part of the Church?
Asking for the prayers of the saints has been done through-out history and is taught by the Church Fathers. Did the Church get it wrong for over a thousand years, but got it right less than five hundred years ago?

[JamesScott]

This one's a double whammy! Praying to Mary AND asking her to pray for us!

Probably the best known prayer to Our Lady, which is easy to memorize, is the Hail Mary:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Killing 2 birds with 1 stone.

In our view "prayer" is just communication. To ask a saint for prayer, we would have to pray to them; that is, we would have to communicate with them to do this.
And why wouldn't we communicate with them? They are members of our Family.

[JamesScott]

Gabrielman,

Hm.... I didn't read through all of the things on this thread, lol maybe I should have as I feel in the dark. Is this about salvation, or prayers to saints? my poor little brain, recently has gone through too much!

Yeah, I mentioned a belief that seems to be unpopular around here about salvation on page one. It seems I have disturbed a hornet's nest

[derrick09]

I think most of you all here have gotten off track from my origional post, if anyone else wants to respond to my origional post feel free to do so, but if not, and this conversation still goes in the way it is going, in a week or so I may have to start this discussion over again with a fresh thread. So thanks ahead of time to the ones that have responded to my origional post.

[JamesScott]

I think most of you all here have gotten off track from my origional post, if anyone else wants to respond to my origional post feel free to do so, but if not, and this conversation still goes in the way it is going, in a week or so I may have to start this discussion over again with a fresh thread. So thanks ahead of time to the ones that have responded to my origional post.

I agree. If anyone wants to continue this discussion further, another thread should be made.

[B. W.]

I think most of you all here have gotten off track from my origional post, if anyone else wants to respond to my origional post feel free to do so, but if not, and this conversation still goes in the way it is going, in a week or so I may have to start this discussion over again with a fresh thread. So thanks ahead of time to the ones that have responded to my origional post.

I agree. If anyone wants to continue this discussion further, another thread should be made.

Yes - please make another topic on prayer subject elswhere and let's try to get back to derrick's original question
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[B. W.]

...I'm not denying the truth of Salvation. Yes, we can be made children of God and be saved from sin.
What I am saying is that we always have the free will to turn away from Christ if we so choose.

That's why I don't believe in saying "i'm saved." I'm still struggling against temptations, the passions of the flesh, etc. I am still fighting the good fight of faith. I am still being "healed." Once my fight is over, and I have been faithful, then I will be saved by the Lord's mercy.

As our Lord said, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." St. Matthew 24:13

St. Matthew 24:13 refers the time of the great tribulation notice in Mat 24:9 that some will die before the end comes - are they who die saved or not saved because they did not endure to the end? Context of chapter 24 has many die in what we today would term from collateral damage and also by being a direct intended target. This passage does not specify good works as the means to endure - it means soemthing else.

Look at Mat 24:22: "And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened..." For some their days will be shorten due to collateral damage and others by being a direct intended target Harsh but true - God will not cast away nor allow you to fully walk away...for others during this time period s raptured - others endure the strain...

God is more than able to keep his word.

Next, What do you do with a verse like this as well its context:

John 6:37, 38, 39, 40 --"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out...."

Since you were given to Christ by the Father - he is more than able to keep you from walking away and deliver you.

...That's why I don't believe in saying "i'm saved." I'm still struggling against temptations, the passions of the flesh, etc. I am still fighting the good fight of faith. I am still being "healed." Once my fight is over, and I have been faithful, then I will be saved by the Lord's mercy.

Question: Is your faith in the Lord alone or is your faith in your own efforts to be saved?

You stated that you are not denying the truth of Salvation, yet, where is your faith frimly placed? If not on the Rock then would not it be on shifting sands?

Do you really trust the Lord or yourself more?

Who do you Love?
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