Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:Ok this is a gross subject... I'll admit that. It's sick, but I have a question for Young Earth Creationists. Let's face it. Farting is not only embarrassing, but they also can stink and are disgusting, and according to Genesis there was plenty of fruit in the Garden of Eden to supply the fuel for the fire.

My question is, before sin, in the Garden of Eden was there any farting going on there? It was a perfect world, correct? How could God allow such a gross embarrassing thing in the garden? AND if there wasn't any farting going on in the garden, how was God going to stop it?

We won't even get into burping.. Or acid reflux.

Just curious...

Have to say Gman - you sometimes come up with the most random posts. Love it.

Actually - I think Farting is just proof that God has a sense of humour. How many tense situations have been avoided by someone dropping their hat as it were and people collapsing in fits of laughter. I know that everytime my 6 month old daughter farts I am in hysterics. And if we are going to be gross......I suffer from IBS and farting is a blessed relief sometimes.

Okay.....have I gone too far........is the line a dot to me now.....

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:I'd like to think that God created man with the potential to produce a loud, smelly fart. I'm not sure I'd agree that God created Adam with gas already inside him so he could fart immediately upon being created. Besides, I wouldn't agree that the loud farts are the smelliest ones. The slow, silent farts are usually the worst imo.

Yes and there is some decay that is happening in the intestine when bacteria breaks down solids. According to the YEC beliefs, there was no decay before sin.. I think this is a problem for them..

Well, unless they are wiling to say that our skin was completely different and that they skin cells didn't die, then you have to see that we are, at some level, decaying. Our stomach lining cells replace themselves over 3 days because of the corrosive nature of the hydrochloric acid.

Was there no hydrochloric acid before the fall?

Did plant cells not die in autumn? (Were there seasons?)

Did red blood cells die after 4 months? (same question with white blood cells)...

Canuckster1127 wrote:
There's an underlying tendency in YEC doctrine and viewpoints to take a similar view when looking back to the garden and to the impact of the fall. Part of the whole interpretation of Romans 5 is to see an idyllic setting in the garden that equals "perfect" in the sense that everything that we experience now is uncomfortable to think of in the garden. No death. No entropy. Vegetarian diet only for all creatures (including what are now carnivores).

I think the vegetarian diet in the garden is an inescapable venue for flatulence..

Canuckster1127 wrote:And yes, it seems ridiculous, but I'd dare say even some who might include no farting or excrement (do you want to go there GMan? )

It would appear that in the YEC camp that might be so.. Yes, of course we are not only talking about flatulence here, but what about simply going to the bathroom? I'm mean was poop also allowed in the garden? How can poop be good? No offense to anyone but it is fowl.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Want to know something? I'll step out on a limb here and say that Jesus in his incarnation here on earth, ate, drank, belched and even farted on average 14 times a day (which is the medically established average.) Jesus experienced physical life as we do and it wasn't "evil." It's how God created us and how God entered into our experience to reach out to love us.

Good point..

Silvertusk wrote:Have to say Gman - you sometimes come up with the most random posts. Love it.

Actually - I think Farting is just proof that God has a sense of humour. How many tense situations have been avoided by someone dropping their hat as it were and people collapsing in fits of laughter. I know that everytime my 6 month old daughter farts I am in hysterics. And if we are going to be gross......I suffer from IBS and farting is a blessed relief sometimes.

Okay.....have I gone too far........is the line a dot to me now.....

I guess we could call it the fart theory that brought down the YEC camp..

Ok this is getting gross now.

Guess after teaching anatomy, I'm kinda immune to the weirdness of talking about it...we all hate that it happens and it's embarrassing but there's nothing inherently shameful or gross about it.


We got into talking about placentas yesterday...that was a weird conversation....

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:I'd like to think that God created man with the potential to produce a loud, smelly fart. I'm not sure I'd agree that God created Adam with gas already inside him so he could fart immediately upon being created. Besides, I wouldn't agree that the loud farts are the smelliest ones. The slow, silent farts are usually the worst imo.

Yes and there is some decay that is happening in the intestine when bacteria breaks down solids. According to the YEC beliefs, there was no decay before sin.. I think this is a problem for them..

Gman, I don't think most YECs still believe that there was no decay before man's sin. In a debate a while back, I believe it was Ham who said that the 2nd law of thermodynamics was present before Adam sinned. I think most YECs changed their belief on that a while back.

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:I'd like to think that God created man with the potential to produce a loud, smelly fart. I'm not sure I'd agree that God created Adam with gas already inside him so he could fart immediately upon being created. Besides, I wouldn't agree that the loud farts are the smelliest ones. The slow, silent farts are usually the worst imo.

Yes and there is some decay that is happening in the intestine when bacteria breaks down solids. According to the YEC beliefs, there was no decay before sin.. I think this is a problem for them..

Gman, I don't think most YECs still believe that there was no decay before man's sin. In a debate a while back, I believe it was Ham who said that the 2nd law of thermodynamics was present before Adam sinned. I think most YECs changed their belief on that a while back.

That maybe true... However, I believe that the YEC beliefs about the 2nd law of thermodynamics are quite different from the OEC beliefs. OEC believes that death and decay were evident before the fall whereas YEC has a different interpretation of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Yes, they might except some concepts of decay, but they do not embrace the entire laws of thermodynamics as it relates to us today.

I think you're right Rick. Most don't go to the extreme. Many however do, I think, make those kind of assumptions in their thinking in other areas and don't note the inconsistency and implications in this one.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I think you're right Rick. Most don't go to the extreme. Many however do, I think, make those kind of assumptions in their thinking in other areas and don't note the inconsistency and implications in this one.

I've heard YEC people say that the Garden of Eden was a "perfect" place. Well, I'm sorry but foul smells do not conform to the standards of "perfect." If that weren't true, then our thanksgiving meals would be accepting of them (i.e. farts) at the dinner table..

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I think you're right Rick. Most don't go to the extreme. Many however do, I think, make those kind of assumptions in their thinking in other areas and don't note the inconsistency and implications in this one.

I've heard YEC people say that the Garden of Eden was a "perfect" place. Well, I'm sorry but foul smells do not conform to the standards of "perfect." If that weren't true, then our thanksgiving meals would be accepting of them (i.e. farts) at the dinner table..

But why can’t they say that the garden of Eden was perfect,at least under these conditions?

Many other things (bugs, animals chemicals etc) on earth stink or make funny sounds. So one who accepts the YEC view could say that farting or various smells and funny sounds is a common attribute found in the majority of the mammals God created. Therefore, it is likely that farting is not an imperfection. In this case, any mammal that did not emit some kind of smell or sound would be seen as odd or imperfect. You would have to prove that God does not see mammals that fart and/or emit bad smells or embarrassing sounds as perfect. Humans can not see perfection in many things but that does not mean that God does not see the things he created as perfect for what they are.

Job 1:1 Genesis 6:9 Job and Noah were seen as men who walked perfectly (blameless) before the lord, not that they did not sin but they were perfect for sinful humans/humans after the fall (they did what God said was right to do). So, you can have a perfect fallen human…. Also, God called himself good even though he is perfect Mark 10:18. But the catch is that his definition of good is perfect. When God created the earth and mankind, he said that things were good and humans were very good. But this comes from a perfect God, compared to Him, nothing else can be perfect.

If Adam and Eve did not sin then they would not have died-when Jesus comes back, he will give his children a body that does not die. Does this mean that Adam and Eve had the kind of body Jesus will give his children? If so, then their bodies were as good as humans will get and therefore they were physically perfect humans (just not perfect compared to God).

Or, if a YEC wanted to say that their was no farting then they can also use what I said in my first and second post here (which I said for fun or as a joke).

As Bart said, Jesus most likely farted, that is logical. But a YEC could still say that Jesus came down to be an example for fallen sinful humans. And so he was born with the type of body that fallen sinful humans have and suffered as one of us and he did this because he loved us. But he left earth with a different body, who can say how that body will function or that Adam and Eve did not have the same body or say what kind of food God will provide etc.

It all depends on one’s perspective….

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I think you're right Rick. Most don't go to the extreme. Many however do, I think, make those kind of assumptions in their thinking in other areas and don't note the inconsistency and implications in this one.

I've heard YEC people say that the Garden of Eden was a "perfect" place. Well, I'm sorry but foul smells do not conform to the standards of "perfect." If that weren't true, then our thanksgiving meals would be accepting of them (i.e. farts) at the dinner table..

I'll repeat, and since you won't address me I'll continue to repeat: The body farting is no negation of a properly functioning body. I'm not saying we were perfect before the fall, but you need to show how farting is a negation. Not your subjective opinion about the smell; show me how farting is a negation of a properly functioning body...

Or continue to ignore the point.

DannyM wrote:

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I think you're right Rick. Most don't go to the extreme. Many however do, I think, make those kind of assumptions in their thinking in other areas and don't note the inconsistency and implications in this one.

I've heard YEC people say that the Garden of Eden was a "perfect" place. Well, I'm sorry but foul smells do not conform to the standards of "perfect." If that weren't true, then our thanksgiving meals would be accepting of them (i.e. farts) at the dinner table..

I'll repeat, and since you won't address me I'll continue to repeat: The body farting is no negation of a properly functioning body. I'm not saying we were perfect before the fall, but you need to show how farting is a negation. Not your subjective opinion about the smell; show me how farting is a negation of a properly functioning body...

Or continue to ignore the point.

I'm not ignoring you... Yes of course the body farting is no negation of a properly functioning body. My question is however how can gross smells and embarrassing noises be part of a "perfect" world?

Gman wrote:

DannyM wrote:

Gman wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:I think you're right Rick. Most don't go to the extreme. Many however do, I think, make those kind of assumptions in their thinking in other areas and don't note the inconsistency and implications in this one.

I've heard YEC people say that the Garden of Eden was a "perfect" place. Well, I'm sorry but foul smells do not conform to the standards of "perfect." If that weren't true, then our thanksgiving meals would be accepting of them (i.e. farts) at the dinner table..

I'll repeat, and since you won't address me I'll continue to repeat: The body farting is no negation of a properly functioning body. I'm not saying we were perfect before the fall, but you need to show how farting is a negation. Not your subjective opinion about the smell; show me how farting is a negation of a properly functioning body...

Or continue to ignore the point.

I'm not ignoring you... Yes of course the body farting is no negation of a properly functioning body. My question is however how can gross smells and embarrassing noises be part of a "perfect" world?

Gman, I'm starting to see your point. YEC does say that creation was created as perfect(without flaws), and only becoming imperfect after man's sin. As opposed to OEC that believes it was created as perfect for its purpose, and is still perfect for its purpose even after man's sin. How could creation be without flaws if stinky farts are far from perfect? I do think your point does raise an interesting question for at least the "perfect creation" belief that is prevalent in YEC.

Thanks Rick..

I had a very unusual church service today.. During the service, while we were all singing, someone in front of me actually passed gas. And you know what? It wasn't a pleasant experience... At all.. In fact I actually had to move to avoid it.. And you know what? I have been going to this church for years and HAVE NEVER experienced something like this, or if I did, never this smelly.. Usually the place smells like cologne, but never like ... Well you know.

A sign from God? What are the chances of this happening while we are writing about this very subject?

Anyways I'm not sure if i want to write about this anymore.. Especially during the holidays.

Let's move on to other subjects.

Anyways I'm not sure if i want to write about this anymore.. Especially during the holidays.

But Gman, holiday foods produce the stinkiest farts!