Flaws with Dispensational Theology

[puritan lad]

B.W.

While your history of modern Israel is an interesting read, you haven't justified 1948 as being a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Dispensation Theology is just as much an interpretive grid for understanding the Scriptures as Covenant Theology. The debate here is which one is consistent with the teachings of Scripture. All you are really saying here is that you disagree with Covenant Theology and see it as dogma. But you are just as dogmatic about Dispensational Theology. We obviously disagree on many things, but dogma is a two way street, and we both have it. (Opposing "dogma" is itself a dogma). In the end, one of us is wrong.

I won't be able to respond to all of this at this time, as I'm currently working on a response to the Amos passages that you have in the other thread (a very long post). But I'll respond to a few issues here.

You are creating a false dichotomy in regards to Christ and His church. (In fact, I don't remember telling anyone that they had to join my church, which is what you seem to be implying). In any case, to be in Christ is to be in His Body, the church. Christ died for His church, to sanctify His church, to give His church the keys of the kingdom. Yes, the OT prophets saw the church age, established, sanctified, and commissioned by Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:8, among other passages that I have offered, removes any doubt concerning this.

In addition, while we may disagree on many things, one thing that we must be dogmatic about is that the Gospel of Christ crucified is the ONLY gospel, and it is for Jew and Gentile. Paul was pretty dogmatic about that, and if he is correct in Galatians 1:6-9, we would do well to be dogmatic as well. It is here, more than just the "interpretive grid", that jlay has some serious errors.

[Gman]

In addition, while we may disagree on many things, one thing that we must be dogmatic about is that the Gospel of Christ crucified is the ONLY gospel, and it is for Jew and Gentile. Paul was pretty dogmatic about that, and if he is correct in Galatians 1:6-9, we would do well to be dogmatic as well.

The kicker here is that the remnant of Israel (the just Jews) and the Gentiles will, sometime in the future, be redeemed by Christ. It appears that God wants the Gentiles to be grafted into this Jewish remnant or tree branch. Then and only then will the tree flourish. Once this tree has fully bloomed, then Christ comes to harvest it.

According to B.W's link...

"The overarching plan of the LORD is to redeem both Jews and Gentiles by means of the unconditional covenants and promises given to the faithful patriarchs of Israel. The Gentile Church does not exist instead of Israel (replacement theology); nor does it exist outside of Israel (separation theology); but rather it is incorporated within the faithful remnant of Israel"

So yes.. There IS only one gospel, and one day it will exist as one tree.. Perhaps even now...

[Gman]

In other words... Nothing is going to happen until the Jews and the Gentiles GET IT STRAIGHT. We Gentiles (the branches) are being held back by the Jews (the stem) and the Jews are being held back the Gentiles. Until these groups come together and form this spiritual tree nothing is gong to happen.. Christ won't return until the tree is ready to harvest.

Now that is amazing..

Think of it this way... God uproots His people, the Jews, and plants them in various parts of the world in 70 AD. Now God rips out these plants from various parts of the world and plants them back into their ancient roots in Israel in 1948. But how are these trees going to grow? No leaves or branches.. Is not God also the God of the Gentiles? Of course, so he grafts these branches into these stumps and the whole tree comes back to life.. God's word is the water that waters these trees and they start to grow. Harvest time yet? Well, once this tree starts to grow and is at it's fullest. Whala... Christ comes back to harvest it..

As they say here in California... Sweet dude..

They call it innestare... This is how God wants it folks.

From this.. Jewish stump or stem.



To this.. Gentiles get grafted in.



To this..



Or if you live in Hawaii.



Bing.. I get it now...

[Canuckster1127]

In the end, one of us is wrong.

That's a very revealing statement. What if in the end, both of you are wrong and this is about more than winning an argument?

[B. W.]

In the end, one of us is wrong.

That's a very revealing statement. What if in the end, both of you are wrong and this is about more than winning an argument?

Good point Bart,

With me, it is not about winning - Just to post and let the Holy Spirit do the rest with whichever way a person decides for themselves on this matter.

For me, I am not a dispensationalist – I am a Christian.

Gman is seeing something from this discussion and the bible is coming alive to him, so for that – Praise God - His work! – not mine. God has a plan for both Jew and Gentile Believers and for certain things to happen, the Jews will return to their land a second time, become a nation and from there – God knows…

Personally, I can’t find the Church as Israel or taking its place in the bible, anywhere, especially after studying the original language usages, grammar, context, etc. It is not there. What I and others before me have found is simple to grasp. As Christians we are called by the Lord’s name i.e. Character. The NT teaches that we are to be transformed into whose image – Israel or Jesus?

The reader from this can decide on his or her own from here on out if we are to be Israel's or Christ’s reflection. Whatever conclusion they come too, God will work with them on in His own way, so for me, I am not here to win an argument. I have no axe to grind. No holy crusade to win. Just help others see a better reflection of Christ in themselves – the hope of Glory!

Getting back to the real Root of our faith is important and each ones journey there is their own as the Lord speaks, leads, guides, rebukes, chastens, loves, whispers too to help them become better reflection of who He is and is about…
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[B. W.]

In other words... Nothing is going to happen until the Jews and the Gentiles GET IT STRAIGHT. We Gentiles (the branches) are being held back by the Jews (the stem) and the Jews are being held back the Gentiles. Until these groups come together and form this spiritual tree nothing is gong to happen.. Christ won't return until the tree is ready to harvest.

Now that is amazing..

Think of it this way... God uproots His people, the Jews, and plants them in various parts of the world in 70 AD. Now God rips out these plants from various parts of the world and plants them back into their ancient roots in Israel in 1948. But how are these trees going to grow? No leaves or branches.. Is not God also the God of the Gentiles? Of course, so he grafts these branches into these stumps and the whole tree comes back to life.. God's word is the water that waters these trees and they start to grow. Harvest time yet? Well, once this tree starts to grow and is at it's fullest. Whala... Christ comes back to harvest it..

As they say here in California... Sweet dude..

They call it innestare... This is how God wants it folks.

Bing.. I get it now...

Amazing isn't it!

I like Isaiah 62:6, ""On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; All day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; 7 And give Him no rest until He establishes And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth." NASB

Interesting statement isn't it?

Isaiah 62:10, Go through, go through the gates, Clear the way for the people; Build up, build up the highway, Remove the stones, lift up a standard over the peoples." NASB

In other words... Nothing is going to happen until the Jews and the Gentiles GET IT STRAIGHT. We Gentiles (the branches) are being held back by the Jews (the stem) and the Jews are being held back the Gentiles. Until these groups come together and form this spiritual tree nothing is gong to happen.. Christ won't return until the tree is ready to harvest.

As Isaiah recorded the Lord saying, and from the best I can gather, it begins with us Gentile believers making the first step...of faith...too...

Clear the way for the people and remove the stones, lift up a standard over the peoples...

Think of it this way... God uproots His people, the Jews, and plants them in various parts of the world in 70 AD. Now God rips out these plants from various parts of the world and plants them back into their ancient roots in Israel in 1948. But how are these trees going to grow? No leaves or branches.. Is not God also the God of the Gentiles? Of course, so he grafts these branches into these stumps and the whole tree comes back to life.. God's word is the water that waters these trees and they start to grow. Harvest time yet? Well, once this tree starts to grow and is at it's fullest. Whala... Christ comes back to harvest it..

A time of dividing...fer sure dude
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[Gman]

Gman is seeing something from this discussion and the bible is coming alive to him, so for that – Praise God - His work! – not mine. God has a plan for both Jew and Gentile Believers and for certain things to happen, the Jews will return to their land a second time, become a nation and from there – God knows…

Yes... Thank you. It is becoming very evident what is going on here.. You know for years I've always had this longing for Israel. I'd even watch Schindler's List and get very emotional about it.. Going from tears to anger. Then about 15 years ago I started collecting menorahs, then Jewish temples, then ark of the covenants, then the Holy furniture. Then I thought to myself. I'm I going crazy? I'm not even Jewish.. What is with all this fascination? Perhaps it is the Holy Spirit in me or perhaps it is just fascination. But I know one thing. I find all this remnant stuff to be very interesting.. That article made it crystal clear to me.

Thank again Bryan..

[Gman]

Personally, I can’t find the Church as Israel or taking its place in the bible, anywhere, especially after studying the original language usages, grammar, context, etc. It is not there. What I and others before me have found is simple to grasp. As Christians we are called by the Lord’s name i.e. Character. The NT teaches that we are to be transformed into whose image – Israel or Jesus?

The reader from this can decide on his or her own from here on out if we are to be Israel's or Christ’s reflection. Whatever conclusion they come too, God will work with them on in His own way, so for me, I am not here to win an argument. I have no axe to grind. No holy crusade to win. Just help others see a better reflection of Christ in themselves – the hope of Glory!

Getting back to the real Root of our faith is important and each ones journey there is their own as the Lord speaks, leads, guides, rebukes, chastens, loves, whispers too to help them become better reflection of who He is and is about…
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What I'm starting to see here is that the OT laws, or Torah, is not quite dead yet. It can't provide true salvation, unless we think animal sacrifice can do it, but it can provide sanctification which is another process in Christianity.. In fact the OT laws are needed to understand the heart of God..

Again we have laws of our land today right? They are needed or else we would probably kill ourselves. And grace can still flourish in the land of laws. In fact America has more laws than the Torah ever did. So who is being more legalistic here?

[Canuckster1127]

It's a good discussion and I"m enjoying and learning from it too. That comment just struck me for some reason. It's always tempting in a discussion between 2 positions to assume that it's an either/or, all or nothing situation. The fact is, most theological positions fall on a spectrum and there are any number of possibilities both within and outside of the defined positions and both parties may very well have valid points or both parties may be missing the point entirely.

[Gman]

True.. I don't think we can know everything about God. Especially when it get's into prophecy. It will require some type of faith. No slam dunks..

I loved this quote..

"If we start from the premise that without faith it is impossible to please God ( Hebrews 11:6 ), and if we recognize that faith is something short of absolute certainty (Hebrews 11:1 )"

At this point though I could say however that I "lean" in this direction..

[zoegirl]

So if I am understanding this idea correctly...it's not that the Jews have any other salvation besides Christ, but those that accept Christ will be part of a restored Jewish nation?

THis seems to hinge upon this idea that God will take care of his chosen people, but isn't Christ that care? Why restore a nation when God is building a church!?

[Gman]

So if I am understanding this idea correctly...it's not that the Jews have any other salvation besides Christ, but those that accept Christ will be part of a restored Jewish nation?

THis seems to hinge upon this idea that God will take care of his chosen people, but isn't Christ that care? Why restore a nation when God is building a church!?

My understanding is that there is a Jewish remnant that functions under God's grace without Christ Romans 11:5-6. How it functions I'm not entirely sure, because no there is not atonement for sin. However, it is possible that once the Temple sacrifices start up again, it could get the spiritual wheel moving again so to speak. I don't know... So what happens is that God wants the Gentiles to be grafted into this spiritual wheel which will then usher in the messiah Romans 11:17-21.

Both groups want the messiah to return, but both groups have a different interpretation of who the messiah really is. The crowning moment is when Christ comes back as the messiah and then rules over both groups as king Revelation 1:7, Revelation 17:14.

At least this is how I understand it. In other words, the Jewish remnant in the mechanics or law or stem in grace to Jews, the Christians are the love or branches/leaf collectors that nourish the stem in grace to the Gentiles. In other words, God is compromising to have both groups function, but function as a unit (like in a marriage) under Hebraic law. This will produce the "one" man, which in turn morphs into Christ..

[Gman]

So first came Adam, the man, the Hebrews (the stem) under the law, the Jews. Second came Eve, the woman, the Gentiles (the flower), which is the offshoot of that law under grace. So these two groups marry to produce the "one" man or Christ. Both groups got it right, but both groups rely on each other to function.

Anyways.. That is how I'm beginning to see it.

[puritan lad]

In addition, while we may disagree on many things, one thing that we must be dogmatic about is that the Gospel of Christ crucified is the ONLY gospel, and it is for Jew and Gentile. Paul was pretty dogmatic about that, and if he is correct in Galatians 1:6-9, we would do well to be dogmatic as well.

The kicker here is that the remnant of Israel (the just Jews) and the Gentiles will, sometime in the future, be redeemed by Christ. It appears that God wants the Gentiles to be grafted into this Jewish remnant or tree branch. Then and only then will the tree flourish. Once this tree has fully bloomed, then Christ comes to harvest it.

According to B.W's link...

"The overarching plan of the LORD is to redeem both Jews and Gentiles by means of the unconditional covenants and promises given to the faithful patriarchs of Israel. The Gentile Church does not exist instead of Israel (replacement theology); nor does it exist outside of Israel (separation theology); but rather it is incorporated within the faithful remnant of Israel"

So yes.. There IS only one gospel, and one day it will exist as one tree.. Perhaps even now...

FIne, but the main beef here is that jlay doesn't believe this. This has gone beyond mere "dispensational vs. covenant" arguments into something much more serious.

In the end, one of us is wrong.

That's a very revealing statement. What if in the end, both of you are wrong and this is about more than winning an argument?

That may well be, which is why we have these debates. Doctrine matters, and not just for abstract theological discussions. What we think about these things affects the way we view the Christian life, the gospel, Israel, world politics, etc. If I am wrong, I will need to be shown from Scripture. I have addressed the flaws in Dispensationalism, and jlay has exhibited them to a tee. I would look forward to seeing what flaws you find in the Covenant view. B.W. has expressed a few, but he is begging the question when he does (ie. The church is never called Israel. Yes it is).

For me, I am not a dispensationalist – I am a Christian.

Labels have meaning. Whatever label to wish to affix to yourself, you are clearly espousing Dispensational Theology. (We Calvinists are Christians as well.)

In any case, there seems to be a mindset of "here is whay I believe, and if you disagree, you are being too dogmatic". (or even worse, if one challenges you to justify your assertions.

So back to the debate, does the OT teach that the gentiles will be justified by faith or not?

The tougher matter is did these OT prophets have clear revelation as to what that all meant regarding justification by faith in the Gospel? Clearly what we have in the OT text is brief, and only refers to blessing."

And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed."

So are we to believe, Paul or jlay?

[zoegirl]

At least this is how I understand it. In other words, the Jewish remnant in the mechanics or law or stem in grace to Jews, the Christians are the love or branches/leaf collectors that nourish the stem in grace to the Gentiles. In other words, God is compromising to have both groups function, but function as a unit (like in a marriage) under Hebraic law. This will produce the "one" man, which in turn morphs into Christ..

see, I don't understand how this can be reconciled with scripture, with the rest of the Bible. The law does not bring salvation, it only serves to reveal our need for salvation. CHrist was the ultimate atoning sacrifice for us...to add anything to this or take away His sacrifice by some element of other sacrifice that would serve to reconcile anyone to God does seem very dangerous indeed.