Evidence for God from Science

I believe that Jesus was a great philosopher and moral teacher, but not divine

When people say this it seems to me that they mean this:
I agree with many things that Jesus said and did, that doesn't mean I think or am ready to accept his or anyone elses divinity.

Byblos wrote:

Proinsias wrote:Could you expand a little on accidentally, or deliberately, confusing the purpose of sexual organs?
I'm married, I have a daughter. I don't think there is a sole purpose of sexual organs. If I did I reckon I would have quite a few more children. People often make decisions to engage their sexual organs without much likelihood of there being a conception on the cards. People masturbate, take the pill, use contraception and have genital to other person contact that does not involve direct sexual organ to sexual organ contact. When does this become sin?

The same place where sex starts and ends, in the mind.

Exactly, Byblos. Also, the same place all sin begins and ends, really. The outward is nothing more than the overflow of the inward.

Pro, if I boil out the specifics and take your philosophy on this on this at its core, it seems that you are saying 'whatever people want to do is okay'. As in, as long as people find something they desire to do, it doesn't matter what it is (perhaps you might even say 'as long as it doesn't hurt others'). This is garbage philosophy; as both Byblos and I are saying: it starts and ends in the mind.

To make it absolutely clear since I didn't think we lived in a time when human sexual organs could be confused: male and female organs are designed for each other heterosexually. It takes confusion to think that they should be used with the same sex. We typically don't try walking on our hands (even though we could). We identify our feet and hands separately and understand what they are for.

Saying it starts and ends with the mind can be applied to religion as easily as it can be applied to sexuality.

I'm not saying whatever people want to do is ok. In short I'm saying that if people want to have homosexual relationships and marriages then, most of the time, it's ok by me. I don't apply this to everything and I don't have a set standard like the bible to stick to. If homosexual marriage is legalised and I feel it detracts somewhat from society I may change my mind, I've not got any vested interest in being pro or anti gay - I'm not gay and I don't really hold much value in marriage.
Glad to here you equating homosexual activity with walking on our hands. Doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way. We typically don't label handstands sin or wrong. My daughter has been doing handstands all week, she's just figured it out! She's timing how long she can stay on her hands.

If a garbage philosophy starts and ends in the mind then all philosophy is garbage, bring on theology!

This question has an obvious answer, "why do homosexuals not like the Bible"? We cannot pick & choose what parts we believe or construct our own version of God. That's idolatry. He is the same as He always has been. The Alpha & Omega. Of course our human nature is to not like what we hear that's contrary to our fleshly desires. The point of Christianity is to die to self, gain in Christ. We are made to be His vessel to reach others. Look at the rich man who called Christ Good Teacher & asked what he needed to do to go to heaven. Christ said (paraphrase) to give up all he had & follow Him. This instantly made the man sad because he had great wealth. Anything we hold on to more tightly than to Him also becomes our idol that we serve and therefore is sin. The Bible is our love letter from God. He is our creator and knows what's best for us. So does Satan. That's why he is also so good at what he does. His goal is to estrange us (you cannot lose your salvation) from God. We become useless in our purpose. I have people I would consider friends, who are gay. Do I hate them? Absolutely not. I pray for them but God is their judge. If you truly seek out Christ, ask Him into your life, He will lead, guide & direct you. If you are a Christian, He is convicting you already. If any Christian shows hate to another, he/she is as guilty of sin as their target.

Proinsias wrote:Saying it starts and ends with the mind can be applied to religion as easily as it can be applied to sexuality.

I'm not saying whatever people want to do is ok. In short I'm saying that if people want to have homosexual relationships and marriages then, most of the time, it's ok by me. I don't apply this to everything and I don't have a set standard like the bible to stick to. If homosexual marriage is legalised and I feel it detracts somewhat from society I may change my mind, I've not got any vested interest in being pro or anti gay - I'm not gay and I don't really hold much value in marriage.
Glad to here you equating homosexual activity with walking on our hands. Doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way. We typically don't label handstands sin or wrong. My daughter has been doing handstands all week, she's just figured it out! She's timing how long she can stay on her hands.

If a garbage philosophy starts and ends in the mind then all philosophy is garbage, bring on theology!

You are making statements of morality here without any standard. Who cares what you think, and why does it matter?

Proinsias wrote:Saying it starts and ends with the mind can be applied to religion as easily as it can be applied to sexuality.

Of course it does. Why is that an issue?

Proinsias wrote:I'm not saying whatever people want to do is ok. In short I'm saying that if people want to have homosexual relationships and marriages then, most of the time, it's ok by me. I don't apply this to everything and I don't have a set standard like the bible to stick to. If homosexual marriage is legalised and I feel it detracts somewhat from society I may change my mind, I've not got any vested interest in being pro or anti gay - I'm not gay and I don't really hold much value in marriage.
Glad to here you equating homosexual activity with walking on our hands. Doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way. We typically don't label handstands sin or wrong. My daughter has been doing handstands all week, she's just figured it out! She's timing how long she can stay on her hands.

It's a different perspective depending on one's view on God and our purpose for being. From our perspective we are unique individuals, created in the image of our creator for the purpose of fellowship with our creator and with one another. Therefore procreation is an essential element of that purpose and same sex relationships run counter to that purpose.

Proinsias wrote:If a garbage philosophy starts and ends in the mind then all philosophy is garbage, bring on theology!

Really. I'd love to see you construct a logical syllogism that proves the above sentence.

cypher wrote:Do you believe that being homosexual is wrong?
People are born heterosexual or homosexual. This is a big problem for people, and demonizes religion for an atheist. Most people i know will laugh at the idea of religion because of the lack of caring they show for homosexuality.
shouldn't Christians disregard the passages that deny homosexuals a right to love? Just like they disregard the passage that does not allow shellfish?

I'm afraid not, I believe with all my heart that the Bible is the word of God, so I can't possibly "disregard it" because it seems offensive. Even a non-Christian can see that homosexuality is a disgusting, disgusting thing; men loving men how they would a woman, and women loving women how they would a man. It really is twisted if you think about it. If I happened to be gay, which I am of course not, but for the sake of argument, if I was, I would seek psychological help and see if I couldn't turn myself around, and suppress that lustful tendency in me that I can't even imagine feeling. And if no psychologist, counselor, or neurobiologist would give me an answer, then I'd personally consider suicide. I'm not kidding. Call me close-minded and judgmental, but homosexual love is a sick, dishonorable thing whose wickedness we really need to open our eyes to.

Homosexuality is something that came with the fall of Man, and some people do become homosexual due to influences or tendencies - no I don't think it's genetic to be gay. It's an inevitable element of our world. But what do Christians really hate? The sin, or the sinner? Atheists would have us believe that the Bible's express disapproval of homosexuaLITY reflects into its supposed hatred and judgmental attitude on the homosexuAL. On the contrary, good sir, we are taught to love all men as brothers, and because we love them we teach them that their lifestyle is twisted, and morally wrong.
I ask you, if you are an atheist, this question: Why are you so concerned about equal rights for people denied them? Who told you it was morally wrong to condemn homosexuals? Your parents? Your society? Or was it an inner conscience, a voice for which naturalistic atheism has no explanation? You say we should all be treated equally, but why? What equality do we have if we are nothing more than molecules in motion, dancing blindly to the nucleotide sequences in our DNA code? The concept of the value of human life, and the inherent equality of humans, comes only with the concept that we were created equal. It cannot be reconciled, by no amount of effort, with the concept that we are accidents.

To answer the OP, I think it's a combination of different psychological defense mechanisms with which the self tries to create as much harmony as possible (mental self-preservation if you will). Now, I will concede that there are probably some Christians and others who dislike homosexuals because of some inner convictions held sincerely held by them and not necessarily for other, more complex reasons. That having been said, I should bring to attention that most anti-homosexual individuals dislike gays as a result of, among other factors, projection. Now, psychoanalytic theory established by Sigmund Freud holds that those who dislike gays have formed this tendency to reduce the egodystonia associated with having desires towards the same sex while being taught to oppose homosexulity. The psyche uses projection as a means of preserving the integrity of the self. For this reason Freud firmly believed that the most vehement homophobes (e.g. WBC) are really closeted homo- or bisexuals. Before you say "Psychoanalysis! That is such pseudoscience that even Freud's contemporaries couldn't take it seriously!" However, this is just one more case where Freud has been vindicated by modern scientific research.

In the study "Is homophobia associated with homosexual arousal?", the researchers gathered 35 homophobic, heterosexual men and 29 nonhomophobic, heterosexual men (they were divided into different groups using the Index of Homophobia). The men were shown pornographic material that consisted of heterosexual, lesbian and homosexual videos. Their penile circumference was monitored for any changes. "Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli... Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies." You can read the full abstract at the link (American Psychological Association's PsycNET). And on top of the scientific studies indicating mr. Freud's hypothesis is correct, you can always turn to socially conservative politicians, clergy, heads of anti-gay organizations, anti-gay spokesmen, and the list goes on and on. As a very recent example, a Finnish pastor Markku Koivisto (the leader and founder of Nokia Missio (not related to the cell phone company)) was recently relieved of his occupation when it was discovered that he, according to Timo Aro-Heinilä, had "crossed some sexual boundaries" with numerous men. My parents have been to many of his events and they've always dragged me along, but I always had a bad feeling about him. I particularly remember an instance where, when I was about 6, my parents were listening to one of Koivisto's sermons on the radio. I vividly remember him shouting "But they could not control the lust that BURNED within them!!" He went on and on, constantly yelling something about how horrible the lust in his... I mean their hearts was. I asked "Why is he so angry?" At the time, I couldn't understand it but now, at a more mature age, it seems almost too obvious. He hated what he was born as, but since he lacked the skills to resolve the conflict in his psyche he projected his anger of self to another, external target. But then again, what could he have done? He was born a homo- or a bisexual, and there was no way he could change it. On the other hand, the religion which he (most likely) sincerely believed in did not allow him to be that way. Sure, he could theoretically have lived his whole life in celibacy, but that not being an option for him he did one of the only things he could do. And before you say anything about gay conversion therapy, I'd like to note a couple of things. There have been several things that have been researched and certain conclusions have been drawn. First of all, the method which utilizes classical conditioning doesn't work since it doesn't increase heterosexual desires (i.e. at best it might turn someone into an asexual, but it'll never change someone from being a gay into being a heterosexual). Second, in a study of gay conversion therapies, I think the number that got "cured" was somewhere around 1% or less. Third, from what I've pointed out earlier it should follow that those conducting gay conversion therapy are most likely interested in the same sex themselves (though in this case it might not be a bad thing, since sublimation is a much better response to mental conflicts than is projection).

I believe that I, as a Christian, have answered the OP's question well enough. Now, to answer the most recent poster since his post seems rather content-rich and I disagree with his opinions. As a quick sidenote, although I agree with Cypher on the topic of homosexuality, I must refute one of his arguments since it's a misrepresentation of facts. Christians (myself included) disregard the dietary codes set forth in the Old Testament because in the New Testament Jesus appeared to (I think) Paul and told him "Nothing I've created is impure (referring to Paul's instance on not eating un-kosher foods Jesus presented him with in a vision)." Because of this and other Bible passages, Christians don't have to refrain from eating non-kosher foods like shellfish or pork.

KravMagaSelfDefense wrote:...Even a non-Christian can see that homosexuality is a disgusting, disgusting thing[1]; men loving men how they would a woman, and women loving women how they would a man. It really is twisted if you think about it.[2]

[1] No. All the major organizations (American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychoanalytic Association, etc) of the relevant science (psychology) say that homosexuality is not a negative characteristic, nor is it a choice. Also, according to new findings in the field of biology, male homosexuality might actually be a positive thing. A gene that has an established correlation with homosexuality in males causes increased fertility in female offspring. Increased fertility is certainly a positive thing, no? [2] In a way I can understand your point of view since I was raised to believe it, but even if I personally considered homosexuality to be twisted and perverse I don't ask that my opinion be made into the law, to quote Bill Maher (oh boy, we're getting really off-topic here).

If I happened to be gay, which I am of course not, but for the sake of argument, if I was, I would seek psychological help and see if I couldn't turn myself around, and suppress that lustful tendency in me that I can't even imagine feeling. And if no psychologist, counselor, or neurobiologist would give me an answer, then I'd personally consider suicide. I'm not kidding. Call me close-minded and judgmental, but homosexual love is a sick, dishonorable thing whose wickedness we really need to open our eyes to.

I'm no psychotherapist, but I can say that I've heard many people (personally and non-personally) say that, and in the end it didn't turn out very well. Personally, I don't think anyone can have an outright hatred of homosexuality without some unconscious processes being a part of it (e.g. the opposite of introjection).

Homosexuality is something that came with the fall of Man, and some people do become homosexual due to influences or tendencies - no I don't think it's genetic to be gay. It's an inevitable element of our world. But what do Christians really hate? The sin, or the sinner? Atheists would have us believe that the Bible's express disapproval of homosexuaLITY reflects into its supposed hatred and judgmental attitude on the homosexuAL. On the contrary, good sir, we are taught to love all men as brothers, and because we love them we teach them that their lifestyle is twisted, and morally wrong.

To rephrase, "I love you, but I hate who (or what) you are." If you outright hate someone for who they are, it's impossible to love them. If we extend this logic ("Love the sinner, hate the sin") further, Christians should love Hitler but hate him for what he was. This is a good rhetorical device, but has little substance.

I ask you, if you are an atheist, this question: Why are you so concerned about equal rights for people denied them? Who told you it was morally wrong to condemn homosexuals? Your parents? Your society? Or was it an inner conscience, a voice for which naturalistic atheism has no explanation? You say we should all be treated equally, but why? What equality do we have if we are nothing more than molecules in motion, dancing blindly to the nucleotide sequences in our DNA code? The concept of the value of human life, and the inherent equality of humans, comes only with the concept that we were created equal. It cannot be reconciled, by no amount of effort, with the concept that we are accidents.

Now, the discussion that started with the search of a motive for the "Christians'" dislike for homosexuals has turned into arguments for the existance of God. "Naturalistic atheism" does have an explanation for this. I won't engage in this discussion, but basically it has to do with the viability of communities, the necessity of societies, and the sustainability of civilized, orderly civilizations. You can find out more at this Wikipedia aticle. Now, there are certain aspects of the mind (like consciousness) that naturalism doesn't (at least not as of now) have a definitive answer to, but they do certainly have an explanation for the evolution of conscience.

vendace20 wrote:T.

If we extend this logic ("Love the sinner, hate the sin") further, Christians should love Hitler but hate him for what he was. This is a good rhetorical device, but has little substance.

Little substance? Do you mean to say Hitler did not deserve compassion or grace? How would you feel if Hitler opened himself to God soon before his death in genuine repentance? I am sure God loved Hitler, and can only imagine the pain he must feel for him.

The only lack of substance with that saying is a lack of love from Christians who simply fall short of the perfection of the creator.

Echoside wrote:

vendace20 wrote:T.

If we extend this logic ("Love the sinner, hate the sin") further, Christians should love Hitler but hate him for what he was. This is a good rhetorical device, but has little substance.

Little substance? Do you mean to say Hitler did not deserve compassion or grace? How would you feel if Hitler opened himself to God soon before his death in genuine repentance? I am sure God loved Hitler, and can only imagine the pain he must feel for him.

The only lack of substance with that saying is a lack of love from Christians who simply fall short of the perfection of the creator.

100% correct. It isn't a rhetorical device, vendace. It is the essence of true Christianity.

Murray wrote:If you ask a child molester why he likes children he will say he was born that way and it's not a choice right...

Which is completely true. Their attraction to children isn't a choice.

What is the difference between nambla and LGBT? I mean the 15 year old child is consenting to get married to an 80 year old man and the 80 year old man was born to like younger children, so why should we discriminate? It's the way he is you know?

Because that's crossing over into age of consent laws. Which is a different discussion altogether. The discussion changes completely when referring to kids.

Your comparison is extremely faulty.

Homosexuality is not a snap of the finger choice, nobody thinks that. Becoming gay is a process of choosing to react to certain aspects of ones life. It's kind of like shyness, you say shyness is not a choice, but in reality it is. Think about it in depth and im sure you will see my point.

Shyness develops from reacting to you social atmosphere. Most shy people do not change in the snap of a finger. Most shy people say that’s they way they are born , they can’t change, ect….

Are you really comparing shyness to homosexuality?

Why would someone choose to be gay? Can you choose to be attracted to the same-sex? No... you can't. Why would they want to go through all the crap that many gays are put through? Some of them even get disowned by their family.

Homosexuality is the same, you CAN change your homosexual ways (exodus) if you 1)actual want to 2) put time effort and prayer into it 3) discipline yourself. Exodus founded by an ex-gay and married to an ex-lesbian, how many thousands of lives have been changed by this program yet we hear nothing of it because the left wants us to keep believing it is not a choice.

No such thing as an ex-gay. Either they were never really attracted to the same-sex to begin with or they're simply in denial. Maybe if they weren't surrounded with people telling them that they're sinful just for being who they are.

No such thing as an ex-gay. Either they were never really attracted to the same-sex to begin with or they're simply in denial. Maybe if they weren't surrounded with people telling them that they're sinful just for being who they are.

How does this above statement reconcile with 1 Corinthians 6:9-11?

BOBtheMASTER wrote:No such thing as an ex-gay. Either they were never really attracted to the same-sex to begin with or they're simply in denial

Please provide evidence that backs this up.

BOBtheMASTER wrote: Because that's crossing over into age of consent laws. Which is a different discussion altogether. The discussion changes completely when referring to kids.

Your comparison is extremely faulty.

So what if the laws changed?

BOBtheMASTER wrote:

Homosexuality is not a snap of the finger choice, nobody thinks that. Becoming gay is a process of choosing to react to certain aspects of ones life. It's kind of like shyness, you say shyness is not a choice, but in reality it is. Think about it in depth and im sure you will see my point.

Shyness develops from reacting to you social atmosphere. Most shy people do not change in the snap of a finger. Most shy people say that’s they way they are born , they can’t change, ect….

Are you really comparing shyness to homosexuality?

Why would someone choose to be gay? Can you choose to be attracted to the same-sex? No... you can't. Why would they want to go through all the crap that many gays are put through? Some of them even get disowned by their family.

Why do people steal, cheat, lie, murder, hate, and hurt others? Why go through all the "crap" (and put others through all the "crap") that they do? Can you 'choose' to lust after someone? Can you 'choose' to be jealous or not? Or are those things natural? If they are natural, and the natural world is all there is, how can anyone ever have any choice? And in that case, why are you arguing with someone about whether they are wrong or not? It wouldn't be their choice.

BOBtheMASTER wrote:

Homosexuality is the same, you CAN change your homosexual ways (exodus) if you 1)actual want to 2) put time effort and prayer into it 3) discipline yourself. Exodus founded by an ex-gay and married to an ex-lesbian, how many thousands of lives have been changed by this program yet we hear nothing of it because the left wants us to keep believing it is not a choice.

No such thing as an ex-gay. Either they were never really attracted to the same-sex to begin with or they're simply in denial. Maybe if they weren't surrounded with people telling them that they're sinful just for being who they are.

As DannyM said, where is your evidence for this. That is quite the sweeping claim you've made.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:You are making statements of morality here without any standard. Who cares what you think, and why does it matter?

We all have standards Marcus, though we may not all claim our standard is also the opinion of a particular God and book which happens to be objectively correct. It matters to me mainly due to people I know and care about who happen to be homosexual, they care what I think.

Proinsias wrote:If a garbage philosophy starts and ends in the mind then all philosophy is garbage, bring on theology!

Byblos wrote:Really. I'd love to see you construct a logical syllogism that proves the above sentence.

Might have gotten a bit carried away there, I'd love to see me construct one too