Evidence for God from Science

@Murray

And even if it were found that homosexuality is not a choice, it wouldn't support Calvinism because salvation is still a choice regardless of what sins are committed.

I feel that it is a strawman because jlay was summarizing my position as something like "if it feels good do it since it is our natural inclinations" and that I'm justifying sins that take any discipline to resist, which is not what I'm saying.

I doubt this is going to go anywhere because probably none of us are going change our positions on whether homosexuality is a lifestyle as opposed to a unchangeable characteristic or something that can be overcome . I was saying I think the fact that "repentant" homosexual Christians kill themselves over the issue is strong evidence that it isn't and it cannot be. I don't think it's nearly as common a case for someone to be in so much despair over being unable to control their anger toward their coworkers that it drives them into a state of self-destruction.

As for a homosexual being converted into a heterosexual, I've never heard of it. I'm sure there are bisexuals that choose to be with the opposite sex rather than the same sex after becoming a Christian, but that's a different case.

For the cherry picking thing, I still think so. People quote Leviticus all the time to condemn homosexuals, yet if someone asks the same person if they follow all the other laws found in the same book, they'll have no problems saying "well we aren't under those laws anymore so yeah". It's cherry picking because it isn't consistent.

Seraph, it seems to me that you are saying that homosexuality was wrong for the jews, but is ok for us as Christians now, because we don't live under the law, but under grace. Is that what you're saying?

No, I'm not advocating that we disregard God's laws because we take grace for granted. I meant more like how Jewish law considered eating pigs and shellfish and wearing linen mixed with cotton to be unclean, yet we are not under those laws anymore. I remember one of the GodandScience pages suggest that many of the kosher laws were there for sanitary reasons, perhaps it is the same with sex between homosexuals. I dont know, but I definately feel much more convicted to defend homosexuals (monogamous ones, not promiscuous ones) than to condemn them.

Murray wrote:If it was found out that homosexuality was not a choice would it not support the claim of the strict calvanist since god has made them to be condemed?

Murray, for the sake of responding to your question, I'm going to assume that when you ask if "homosexuality was not a choice", you are referring to the "feelings" of attraction towards those of the same sex. I take it as you're saying that since you believe God has condemned those with "homosexual feelings", could you please tell me where the bible says that? I think you're missing the difference between struggling with temptation, and the actual sinful act itself. Focusing and dwelling on sinful desires, may indeed lead to sinning. But, struggling with sin and condoning sin are two very different things.

I feel that it is a strawman because jlay was summarizing my position as something like "if it feels good do it since it is our natural inclinations" and that I'm justifying sins that take any discipline to resist, which is not what I'm saying.

That's how I read what you said as well. It seemed you were justifying the homosexual acts. Sympathizing with the struggles of someone with homosexual tendencies is different that condoning the actual act itself IMO.

I doubt this is going to go anywhere because probably none of us are going change our positions on whether homosexuality is a lifestyle as opposed to a unchangeable characteristic or something that can be overcome

Is this something you have actually prayed for God's guidance on?

I was saying I think the fact that "repentant" homosexual Christians kill themselves over the issue is strong evidence that it isn't and it cannot be.

I don't see it that way. I see it as strong evidence that the temptation to sin is strong in some of us, and in some situations, people can't handle the temptation.

As for a homosexual being converted into a heterosexual, I've never heard of it.

Ever heard of Exodus International?

People quote Leviticus all the time to condemn homosexuals, yet if someone asks the same person if they follow all the other laws found in the same book, they'll have no problems saying "well we aren't under those laws anymore so yeah". It's cherry picking because it isn't consistent.

Are all the other laws followed by "it is an abomination"? Are you ignoring the consistency between Leviticus 18:22, and all the New Testament verses that talk about homosexual offenders?

Do you know what the earthly marriage of a man and wife symbolizes? Homosexual "marriage" is a perversion of what real marriage symbolizes. Homosexual "marriage" mocks the relationship between Christ and the Church.

Seraph, Exodus 20:15 says "you shall not steal". If the pastor of your church was stealing from your church, would you defend him as well? God said stealing was wrong in the OT, but is it now ok to steal because we're not living under the law?

I dont know, but I definately feel much more convicted to defend homosexuals (monogamous ones, not promiscuous ones) than to condemn them.

You can't ignore the fact that the bible says ANY sex outside marriage is wrong. God set the terms for what marriage is in Genesis 2:24. The man and WIFE shall become one flesh. This is an earthly symbol of the relationship between Christ and His bride. God established that. Homosexual marriage is a mockery of what God established.

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:If it was found out that homosexuality was not a choice would it not support the claim of the strict calvanist since god has made them to be condemed?

Murray, for the sake of responding to your question, I'm going to assume that when you ask if "homosexuality was not a choice", you are referring to the "feelings" of attraction towards those of the same sex. I take it as you're saying that since you believe God has condemned those with "homosexual feelings", could you please tell me where the bible says that? I think you're missing the difference between struggling with temptation, and the actual sinful act itself. Focusing and dwelling on sinful desires, may indeed lead to sinning. But, struggling with sin and condoning sin are two very different things.

So a homosexual must go his entire life without feeling love?

Murray wrote:

RickD wrote:

Murray wrote:If it was found out that homosexuality was not a choice would it not support the claim of the strict calvanist since god has made them to be condemed?

Murray, for the sake of responding to your question, I'm going to assume that when you ask if "homosexuality was not a choice", you are referring to the "feelings" of attraction towards those of the same sex. I take it as you're saying that since you believe God has condemned those with "homosexual feelings", could you please tell me where the bible says that? I think you're missing the difference between struggling with temptation, and the actual sinful act itself. Focusing and dwelling on sinful desires, may indeed lead to sinning. But, struggling with sin and condoning sin are two very different things.

So a homosexual must go his entire life without feeling love?

IMO, the homosexual love that a man or woman longs for is trying to take the place of love that was missing in their life. Maybe a father who never really loved like he should have. Or maybe(you might want to sit down for this one), maybe if their relationship with God was right, the desire for homosexual love wouldn't be so overpowering.

Murray,
What is love?

You remind me of a pharisee and I can barely see you way up there on that horse. Surely you still follow all of the laws in Leviticus and Deuteronomy by the book to this day because who would you be to try and justify what God says is an abomination? No, you cherry pick Leviticus 18:22 from a book filled with laws you don't follow. For some reason, that verse is eternal and unchanging while the others were only culturally relevant to the Jewish people. Yes, shame on me for daring to even think about inquiring about something if it seems to me to be inconsistent with my experiences with reality but I'm afraid I'm plauged by these things called "thoughts".

The verse in Leviticus is not simply a 'law," it is a truth. For example, is it OK to murder? Commit adultery? steal? Those are all part of the Jewish Law. Yet they were wrong before the Law was given and are wrong today. By nature's God they are wrong. Let's imagine for a minute that I am involved in adultery. And I try to justify that I am simply following my wiring, and that we aren't required to follow the OT law. Would you buy it? Heck no. The NT clearly points out that adultery is evil, as it does with homosexual actions.

You are welcome to believe that the dietary laws and homosexual actions are the equal in this respect. But I don't think it is following a consistent handling of the scripture. We even see after much discussion that Gentiles are told to abstain from sexual immorality. And since the issue was whether they would or wouldn't follow the Jewish Law, we can rightly assume that they were referencing those guidelines regarding what was forbidden.

FWIW, I agree with some of what you say regarding consistency. I think many Christians are hypocritical when it comes to this issue. I think you are reading more into my comments than I am saying.

It is very different from most sinful everyday temptations that we have like the ones you mentioned. Gay Christians kill themselves over this issue. Why? Because they are told that they are abominable and sick and need to be cured when in reality it doesn't work that smoothly. It disgusts and disturbs me intensely.

I will agree that people have done a poor job with this situation. It is unfortunate that you see me coming across this way. Having personally witnessed to homosexuals, I have had many open up to me and thank me for speaking with them. I am not advocating any of the things you imply.

Once more, love is not a sexual attraction. It is the action of loving found in the Bible. Look up Paul's definition of love.

And as for Leviticus, many of the punishments in that book were meant for one of two reasons:

1) To preserve Israel until the time of his arrival
2) To show what a need humanity was in for a savior.

Under the new covenant, the old laws don't have to be enforced in the same way (I.E. with death) because they have been paid for by Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean they aren't still sins, it just means that we are no longer commanded by God to "eliminate" the causers of the problems, just the problems themselves through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Because Christ referred to the OT to explain the sins of people, we know that it is a legitimate source for establishing a moral standard. That and that God doesn't change.

The founder of exodus is actually an ex gay and his wife is an ex lesbian.


Maybe god has different plans for different people, maybe he did really not give them a choice, they they are choosing, maybe we will never know.

But really gays that take place in gay pride are disgusting, I mean butt sex in public on a raft is not godly or holy in any spec of the word. Some gays truley actually enjoy people calling them freaks so they act more freaky, like lady gaga.

But then again, their are gay christians who truley do pray constantly to stop being gay and hate themselves because they cant, but here is a good story for you.

Before I was born again, I would be considered your average if not above average perv teen who would be lookin at women, talking to them, and treating them in ways which is unodly. Now 1 year later, I do not do these acts anywhere near the extent I used to. This was not only due to prayer but self restraint, Self restraint like looking down instead of up when you see an attractive women walk by, small things like this. You see I used to CHOOSE to look but now I CHOOSE not to,I CHOOSE not to have sex now, ect...

Now I can see to an extent how this would differ for a gay, While I do not act the same, I am still attrated to females, But again, I am not gay so it very well could be the same.

Think of it this way,

.... some people are addicted to porn right, then they find out porn is bad, but they have looked at it all their life, then people start calling them names, then they get sad ,but he keeps looking at it even though he knows its wrong because he is so addicted to this life style, now with this new sense of it being wrong in his mind he feels depressed, but yet he does not stop because he is so used to looking at it. The depression adds up and then he ends his life becuase he could not bare to stop looking at the porn he loved so dearly...

You could look at being gay as almost an addiction in a sense. If you were to walk up to a "gay" 10 year old, then raise his that being gay is bad, but yet keep him in an evironment where he cannot feed his addiction to being gay, the gay could go away. This is what some gay camps do, try to keep them away from their addiction, and the reason it works is that some gays have the will to not be gay, and to add on to that will, the addiction is partially taken away at these camps. However, if a gay went to camp, then constantly thought about men, he is still feeding his addiction and will not come out straight. He made the choice to keep thinking about it, thats why he failed right? Now this goes to straight folks as well, If you are a sex addict, you go to rehab and you think about sex non-stop, you come out of rehap still a sex habbit.

God will only do so much, You must have the will power to do what he leaves for you.

For those of you who think Leviticus 18:22 isn't relevant, do a quick search in Strong's Bible Concordance for the verse. The word translated as abomination could also be translated as "a disgusting thing". Now, if God says in Lev 18:22, that homosexual sex is a disgusting thing, then wouldn't it still be seen the same way now in God's eyes? Just something to think about.

Seraph wrote: Either way, it does not change the fact that homosexuality is not a choice and I really don't think that accusing gay people of willfully sinning by being gay is justifiable in any way, which is why I'm willing to give homosexuality the benefit of the doubt. It definately seems to me from a biological standpoint that they are "hardwired" to be gay, so it perplexes me that God would so fiercely condemn people for something that they have no control over and were apparently designed to be. I cannot see how people can naturally be a certain way, yet not be "natural" (whatever that means).

Who among us is perfect? Everyone has obstacles and temptations, if God has given every person a conscience with a moral compass the issue goes away. And if he didn't, then I see no reason to condemn homosexuals. That's what it comes down to at least IMO.

The gay issue is definitely different though, because most other laws set by God do line up with naturalistic sytems of morality while this one seems to be different. I don't think i've read a satisying answer to this yet.

For the naturalist, the answer is obvious that homosexuality should not be condemned because of moral relativity (and other factors), but for the christian the matter gets complicated because of a belief in a moral standard set by God. This is one of the reasons why it is so controversial.

kmr wrote:For the naturalist, the answer is obvious that homosexuality should not be condemned because of moral relativity (and other factors), but for the christian the matter gets complicated because of a belief in a moral standard set by God. This is one of the reasons why it is so controversial.

Actually i see good reasons for the naturalist to deny the practice of homosexuality for the reason is that it is destructive to man kind, problem with continuing evolution and more aids.

Then again we have 7 billion people on earth does it really matter if some are doing it wrong? in the naturalistic world view of course.

I agree with all of that, but my "naturalist" friends have brought up these things with me so many times that I feel there is no way I can show them a naturalist example of why homosexuality is wrong... even with the aids thing, they found a way around believing that too.

CeT-To wrote:

kmr wrote:For the naturalist, the answer is obvious that homosexuality should not be condemned because of moral relativity (and other factors), but for the christian the matter gets complicated because of a belief in a moral standard set by God. This is one of the reasons why it is so controversial.

Actually i see good reasons for the naturalist to deny the practice of homosexuality for the reason is that it is destructive to man kind, problem with continuing evolution and more aids.

Then again we have 7 billion people on earth does it really matter if some are doing it wrong? in the naturalistic world view of course.

I might be misreading this but are you saying that 7 billion people in the world are gay?