Evidence for God from Science

Noah1201 wrote:Whether I was a "true believer" or not is irrelevant as to this topic. I mentioned that in order to point out that I am familiar with basic Christian theology.

It is completely relevant. And, from what you've posted, you aren't familiar with even the most basic fundamental parts of Christianity.

You said you were a Christian, to back up your arguments against Christianity.

I was a Christian until recently, so I am perfectly familiar with the salvation controversy within the Christendom.

Your saying you were a Christian, to prove you know about Christianity, would be like me eating at a Chinese restaurant proves I'm an expert on Mao Tse-tung.

Who do you believe Jesus Christ is, Noah?

Guys, just ignore my last post. I am dropping the whole salvation debate. It is irrelevant. I feel so dumb for allowing myself to get sucked into it.

It doesn't matter if Islam and Christianity have different requirements for salvation. They both still promise damnation to unbelievers. In that, they are identical, and so, saying that one is cruel and the other one is not is irrational. End of story.

RickD wrote: It is completely relevant.

How is it relevant?

And, from what you've posted, you aren't familiar with even the most basic fundamental parts of Christianity.

Care to provide some examples?

I am agnostic with respect who Jesus was.

It doesn't matter if Islam and Christianity have different requirements for salvation. They both still promise damnation to unbelievers. In that, they are identical, and so, saying that one is cruel and the other one is not is irrational. End of story.

If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.

And, from what you've posted, you aren't familiar with even the most basic fundamental parts of Christianity.


Care to provide some examples?

Here's one:

Believe in God, Jesus' status as the Son of God, the resurrection and follow the moral precepts... virtually no Christian will deny that believing these is necessary to achieve salvation (the Bible even states this elsewhere). And those are the core tenets of Christianity.

RickD wrote: If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.

Why? Because it promises hell to unbeliev-- oh wait, the Bible does the same thing.

Essentially, as I've said, the only possible response is "it's good when my religion does it, evil when yours does". Which is ridiculous.

Here's one

And which part of that do you perceive as wrong? I went into a fair amount of detail justifying that later on, even providing biblical proof-texts.

The only claim I've made is that there are nearly identical verses in the Bible as the ones quoted from the Koran in the original post. Whether you choose to interpret them as "tyranny and violence" is up to you.

No, sir, that's not sufficient for me. You claim there are verses that are nearly identical, and I asked you for specifics. And still am waiting. Saying that there are such verses does not make it true that there are such verses. Give me references!
Incidentally, what drove you to "de-convert" from Christianity?

Noah1201 wrote:

No, because repentance is not a requirement for salvation. Repentance to a Christian is synonymous with his faith. Can you not see the difference?

Okay, so in order to maintain the belief that faith alone is required for salvation, you redefine the word "faith" to encompass "repentance" in its meaning. Come on. As far as I am concerned, you can call it whatever you want; I don't care. But repentance is repentance, even if you declare it to be synonymous with faith.

Are you serious? I haven't redefined anything.

Synonymous

Oxford

1. having the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language.

2 closely associated with or suggestive of something: his deeds had made his name synonymous with victory.

You see the second description? That's how I'm using 'synonymous'

I'm saying that for the Christian repentance is synonymous with his faith; it is closely tied to his faith; it goes hand in hand with his faith.

None of this is talking about a saving faith.

You want to say that you were recently a Christian?

Noah1201 wrote:

RickD wrote: If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.

Why? Because it promises hell to unbeliev-- oh wait, the Bible does the same thing.

Essentially, as I've said, the only possible response is "it's good when my religion does it, evil when yours does". Which is ridiculous.

Earlier you said that Christianity and Islam are identical on a point (that hell exists for those who reject the faith), and you used that justify the claim that both could therefor be labeled cruel. However, I think that might be invoking fallacy. If you saw two sets of parents both yelling at their children in public, you may think both similar parents. But if one set beats their child when they get home and the other lovingly holds them as they go to sleep, your judgment is totally in error.

Its true that hell exists in both cases. However, the reason Christians would claim God is not cruel but Allah is has nothing to do with the existence of hell. I think hell is an obvious enough place to expect to exist if free will exists. Hell from a Christian worldview is for those who reject God, who offered Salvation freely in a life designed to get people to make that choice. God never delights in killing. He delights in repentance. Allah, however, delights in killing. So, both parents yell at their children, but one beats their children when they get home for the fun of it and the other loves on them until they fall asleep. Similar symptoms, completely different causes.

RickD wrote:
If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.


Why? Because it promises hell to unbeliev-- oh wait, the Bible does the same thing.

Because, if believing in Jesus, is the only way to God, then telling people that believing in Allah, or any other god, has eternal consequences. What is so difficult to understand about that?

And which part of that do you perceive as wrong? I went into a fair amount of detail justifying that later on, even providing biblical proof-texts.

You say the bible claims someone has to follow "moral precepts" to get eternal life. That only comes from taking bible verses out of context. If you understand the bible in its context, you'll see that eternal life is promised to anybody who believes on Christ. Not anyone who believes on Christ plus baptism, or plus sacraments, or plus tithing, or plus being a good person, etc.

Your taking the bible out of context is what your entire argument in this thread is based on.

If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.

I am not sure why you guys are pursuing this line with Noah. Muslims sincerely believe they are telling the truth. They believe it. Islam, as I believe, is wrong. And, I think there are a lot of lines one can pursue to demonstrate this. But is there a point in trying to say it is cruel because it preaches hell and condemnation for unbelievers? I don't see it.

Would Hell not be logically consistent with the belief that Allah is a morally perfect judge? We may not completely agree with how they portray perfection, or several other matters, but I don't see how it isn't internally consistent with the religion as a whole.

Noah1201 wrote:Now, everyone is suddenly attempting to paint a picture of Christianity that allows one to live however they like - murder, steal, fornicate, and so forth - all while laughing and cursing God, and still get to go to Heaven for their faith in Jesus? Come on, guys. This is not what mainstream Christianity preaches.

Noah, it is a hard picture to paint. A Christian has freedom in Christ. But God also disciplines those he loves. A Christian would be walking contrary to the spirit if he did the things above. That we know. And we know that person will be disciplined. They will lose fellowship. They will grieve the spirit. And they will not find comfort or peace, or security. It is not impossible for a Christian to sin. But it is impossible for a Christian to sin, and think such things, because he is not his own. God will cut off that believer in which they will find no security or peace. The witness of the HS is through faith. And if one is willfully disobedient then they they grieve the spirit, denying it, and thus losing the inner witness. Doubt and despair fill the void. If the person is truly saved, then he is saved. Anyone who looks at salvation as an excuse to get away with these things, has not experienced grace, IMO. Or, has drifited so far from grace that they are vexed. That is what we call WILLFUL sin. Christians do sin. And they also sin knowing it is wrong. But do they willingly sin, thinking, "Hey I can murder this guy and still go to heaven." I would question whether that person has the deposit guaranteeing an inheritance. Could they? man, it's a tough question. Obviously this question came up in the 1st century to Paul. You might want to read Romans 5-7 for starters. Rom. 6:1-2 is where the question is specifically addressed.

As I said Noah, it's a hard picture to paint. But the very conflict you have with it, tells me you likely never experienced it to begin with. A person who says they used to be a Christian is like saying, I used to be Caucasian. Can a true believer get so far from the truth that they would come to your point? Perhaps. But there are some critical questions that you should ask.
Did you know Christ? If you knew Christ, how did you unknow Him?

Okay, so in order to maintain the belief that faith alone is required for salvation, you redefine the word "faith" to encompass "repentance" in its meaning.

This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what repent conveys.
Faith is a matter of the mind. It is submitting in trust. So, when a person goes from unbelief to belief they are repenting. That is they are forsaking one way of thinking to embrace a new one.
Example: Let's say you need surgery. But you don't trust doctors. So, because of your lack of faith in doctors you refuse the surgery. Then you have a meeting with the doctor. He shows you his credentials. He consults you over your illness, and takes the time to show you your need for this surgery. You 'decide' to place your faith in the doctor and trust him to operate on you. You put your fate in his hands. You went from unbelief to belief. And, you repented. You changed your mind.

This isn't a perfect analogy, but it at least scratches the surface of coming to salvation. Repentance is absolutely essential for salvation. It isn't seperate from faith per se, nor is it identical. I wouldn't even say it is a 'part' of faith. But it is all interwoven. If someone is trying to use repentance to argue against faith alone, it would appear that they do not understand either the word, or the human mind.

If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.


I am not sure why you guys are pursuing this line with Noah. Muslims sincerely believe they are telling the truth. They believe it. Islam, as I believe, is wrong. And, I think there are a lot of lines one can pursue to demonstrate this. But is there a point in trying to say it is cruel because it preaches hell and condemnation for unbelievers? I don't see it.

Jlay, I'm saying it's cruel because it is a false religion. Believing in Allah will get someone eternal separation from God.

Jlay

Repentance is absolutely essential for salvation. It isn't separate from faith per se, nor is it identical. I wouldn't even say it is a 'part' of faith. But it is all interwoven. If someone is trying to use repentance to argue against faith alone, it would appear that they do not understand either the word, or the human mind.

You sure about this, J?

RickD wrote:Jlay, I'm saying it's cruel because it is a false religion. Believing in Allah will get someone eternal separation from God.

Rick, Muslims don't believe it is a false religion so Muslims will tell you that blieving in Allah will get you to heaven. Therefore our religion is cruel as it will get us eternal separation from God.

DannyM wrote:Jlay

Repentance is absolutely essential for salvation. It isn't separate from faith per se, nor is it identical. I wouldn't even say it is a 'part' of faith. But it is all interwoven. If someone is trying to use repentance to argue against faith alone, it would appear that they do not understand either the word, or the human mind.

You sure about this, J?

Repentance in the original language means 'turning away from'. You can't place faith in Christ if you haven't turned to Him.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:

DannyM wrote:Jlay

Repentance is absolutely essential for salvation. It isn't separate from faith per se, nor is it identical. I wouldn't even say it is a 'part' of faith. But it is all interwoven. If someone is trying to use repentance to argue against faith alone, it would appear that they do not understand either the word, or the human mind.

You sure about this, J?

Repentance in the original language means 'turning away from'. You can't place faith in Christ if you haven't turned to Him.

Repentance does not save you. You do not 'change your mind' when you trust Christ. Your salvation is all the work of Christ, and 'changing one's mind' would be a work of yours and not Christ.

Like I said, repentance goes hand in hand with your faith in Christ.

RickD wrote:

If Jesus is the only way to God as Acts 4:12 says, then Islam is not just cruel, but eternally cruel.


I am not sure why you guys are pursuing this line with Noah. Muslims sincerely believe they are telling the truth. They believe it. Islam, as I believe, is wrong. And, I think there are a lot of lines one can pursue to demonstrate this. But is there a point in trying to say it is cruel because it preaches hell and condemnation for unbelievers? I don't see it.

Jlay, I'm saying it's cruel because it is a false religion. Believing in Allah will get someone eternal separation from God.

Allah is not a "god" per say. Allah is god directly translated into arabic. Christians in the middle east worship "allah"