Evidence for God from Science

DannyM wrote:...I agree. It's just, no matter where we look, God's justice is righteous.

That is all part of who God is - His character - his nature to act justly for He is righteous...

From this, you can derive three points:

Point One: From what you stated you have evidence that God made human beings creatures of faith imbued with subconscious faith. The reason would be because God being true to His own nature and character justice / righteousness would design that quality within moral beings in order to be absolutely just and righteous in all his ways.

Point Two: It is by faith that we gain access back to God. By this I mean, we have a choice where we will place our faith in – God. Rebellion, Ourselves… Even that proves God true to his own perfect Justice to all and His very own righteousness (right-wise-ness) and His nature of agape love.

In order for God’s love, agape, to exist, God’s agape must have justice and righteous or it cannot be true absolute agape love. Agape love cherishes, nurtures, trains, equips, provides, honors, etc according to God’s own character Justice and Righteousness. It cannot exist otherwise. Why? It would be imperfect love and thus not agape. Choice of faith would be part of this package to those God designed as moral beings. God honoring that choice, even to the determent of a moral being he created, proves agape love true.

Point Three: God’s Justice and Righteousness, not a moral being’s own, but God’s own Justice and Righteousness are the basis of what we call Objective Morality based on truth – the truth about who God is compared to who we are.
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Just want to say that this has been a very interesting read, the sort of stuff that you want to read slowly, chew on it, and then come back to it again.

We know that faith is there on a subconscious level, then we consciously put faith in people, things, or ideas... but faith can also be a learning experience. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Holy Spirit's role in faith development? If everyone has faith, how does it grow and what does a mature faith look like?

Not sure how good these questions are, but just a couple thoughts that crossed my mind...

narnia4 wrote:Just want to say that this has been a very interesting read, the sort of stuff that you want to read slowly, chew on it, and then come back to it again.

We know that faith is there on a subconscious level, then we consciously put faith in people, things, or ideas... but faith can also be a learning experience. Does anyone have any thoughts on the Holy Spirit's role in faith development? If everyone has faith, how does it grow and what does a mature faith look like?

Not sure how good these questions are, but just a couple thoughts that crossed my mind...

These are good questions - how does faith develop?

I think Jesus summed up the Holy Spirit's role in developing faith in John 16:8, 9, 10, 11c
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B. W. wrote:
Point One: From what you stated you have evidence that God made human beings creatures of faith imbued with subconscious faith. The reason would be because God being true to His own nature and character justice / righteousness would design that quality within moral beings in order to be absolutely just and righteous in all his ways.

Lovely! Human beings can and do experience faith, whether it be conscious or subconscious. It all points to a righteous God, Brother.

Point Two: It is by faith that we gain access back to God. By this I mean, we have a choice where we will place our faith in – God.

It is by faith, but the unbeliever must first recognise and acknowledge this faith if he is to stand a chance of knowing the world he lives in.

credo ut intelligam.

Rebellion, Ourselves… Even that proves God true to his own perfect Justice to all and His very own righteousness (right-wise-ness) and His nature of agape love.

In order for God’s love, agape, to exist, God’s agape must have justice and righteous or it cannot be true absolute agape love. Agape love cherishes, nurtures, trains, equips, provides, honors, etc according to God’s own character Justice and Righteousness. It cannot exist otherwise. Why? It would be imperfect love and thus not agape. Choice of faith would be part of this package to those God designed as moral beings. God honoring that choice, even to the determent of a moral being he created, proves agape love true.

We agree. It is a necessary concomitant to God.

Point Three: God’s Justice and Righteousness, not a moral being’s own, but God’s own Justice and Righteousness are the basis of what we call Objective Morality based on truth – the truth about who God is compared to who we are.

I totally agree. But you put it far more succinnctly than I would!

DannyM wrote:

Point Three: God’s Justice and Righteousness, not a moral being’s own, but God’s own Justice and Righteousness are the basis of what we call Objective Morality based on truth – the truth about who God is compared to who we are.

I totally agree. But you put it far more succinctly than I would!

That is how Objective Morality is derived and demonstrates clearly how far humanity has fallen away from God...

Subjective Morality relies solely on works based morality – by such none can be found right in God’s sight for it exposes human nature wanting to act like gods in moral matters.

Faith would be the means for moral creatures to return to God on His terms or reject God by our subjective terms…
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B. W. wrote:

DannyM wrote:

Point Three: God’s Justice and Righteousness, not a moral being’s own, but God’s own Justice and Righteousness are the basis of what we call Objective Morality based on truth – the truth about who God is compared to who we are.

I totally agree. But you put it far more succinctly than I would!

That is how Objective Morality is derived and demonstrates clearly how far humanity has fallen away from God...

Subjective Morality relies solely on works based morality – by such none can be found right in God’s sight for it exposes human nature wanting to act like gods in moral matters.

Faith would be the means for moral creatures to return to God on His terms or reject God by our subjective terms…

Everyone knows there are objective moral standards. But again, recognising and acknowledging this is another thing...

DannyM wrote:...Everyone knows there are objective moral standards. But again, recognizing and acknowledging this is another thing...

True statement indeed!!

Now to get back on the subject of faith; then, if human beings were designed to be creatures of faith, would not that part of the wisdom of God at work, justly, ordained as the means to return to God freely?

In fact, I am wondering if that is why faith in The Lord and what he does pleases Him. I know from only a human perspective how it pleases me to know someone has faith in me to get something done… does this make sense?
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B. W. wrote:Now to get back on the subject of faith; then, if human beings were designed to be creatures of faith, would not that part of the wisdom of God at work, justly, ordained as the means to return to God freely?

In fact, I am wondering if that is why faith in The Lord and what he does pleases Him. I know from only a human perspective how it pleases me to know someone has faith in me to get something done… does this make sense?

It does make sense!

look, human beings are beings of faith. We don't need to distinguish between different meanings of faith, or different 'levels' of faith to know this. We know this by the very fact that all of us, to a man, go about our everyday business trusting the laws of nature. We function without giving a second thought to the consistency and regularity of these laws. We leave the house in the morning, and return home at night, completely unscathed. We constantly return home safe and sound, the laws of nature untroubled and undisturbed. One can only take a wild guess at the ‘levels’ of faith working in the subconscious here. But a subconscious faith it is. Every single human being who ever walked the face of the earth possesses faith.

This is the very basics of ‘faith,’ for sure. We could expand so much here. And we surely will - I keep threatening, but *will* have more time very soon.

DannyM wrote:

B. W. wrote:Now to get back on the subject of faith; then, if human beings were designed to be creatures of faith, would not that part of the wisdom of God at work, justly, ordained as the means to return to God freely?

In fact, I am wondering if that is why faith in The Lord and what he does pleases Him. I know from only a human perspective how it pleases me to know someone has faith in me to get something done… does this make sense?

It does make sense!

look, human beings are beings of faith. We don't need to distinguish between different meanings of faith, or different 'levels' of faith to know this. We know this by the very fact that all of us, to a man, go about our everyday business trusting the laws of nature. We function without giving a second thought to the consistency and regularity of these laws. We leave the house in the morning, and return home at night, completely unscathed. We constantly return home safe and sound, the laws of nature untroubled and undisturbed. One can only take a wild guess at the ‘levels’ of faith working in the subconscious here. But a subconscious faith it is. Every single human being who ever walked the face of the earth possesses faith.

This is the very basics of ‘faith,’ for sure. We could expand so much here. And we surely will - I keep threatening, but *will* have more time very soon.

Like you said, “Every single human being who ever walked the face of the earth possesses faith.”

Therefore, when opponents state in debates that Faith is silly and their trust is in the material, physical, and scientific world alone, then, theirs is a statement of faith – they very type faith they ridicule.

People live by the creed of faith they choose to place credence in. It makes sense that God, according to his great wisdom designed human beings as creatures of faith as that demonstrates God’s deep vast depths of justice, equity, impartiality, and even love as the means to base choice on because if not, the denial of choice would prove God unjust, inequitious, partial, and unloving to those beings he designed as morally reasoning beings.

Therefore, it stands to reason that it would be by faith in God’s grace – demonstrated – is how a fallen lost being could return to God. Yes, sort of a litmus test between good and evil; Faith in God who is eternal or faith in other things which are temporal. Faith in God’s works sets the stage for one to be sealed to him forever and purified. Faith in other things temporal sets the stage to be rejected by God as such refuse God’s free hand in his/her life as they would be that way eternally always rejecting God and exploiting his just and loving nature.

Make sense?
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B. W. wrote:People live by the creed of faith they choose to place credence in. It makes sense that God, according to his great wisdom designed human beings as creatures of faith as that demonstrates God’s deep vast depths of justice, equity, impartiality, and even love as the means to base choice on because if not, the denial of choice would prove God unjust, inequitious, partial, and unloving to those beings he designed as morally reasoning beings.

Therefore, it stands to reason that it would be by faith in God’s grace – demonstrated – is how a fallen lost being could return to God. Yes, sort of a litmus test between good and evil; Faith in God who is eternal or faith in other things which are temporal. Faith in God’s works sets the stage for one to be sealed to him forever and purified. Faith in other things temporal sets the stage to be rejected by God as such refuse God’s free hand in his/her life as they would be that way eternally always rejecting God and exploiting his just and loving nature.

Make sense?

Yes, it does, Bro. And God's love is so righteous that He would not force His love on autonomous man. Which reminds me of the Universalist I've been speaking to, who says that God's love is so great that he wouldn't "let" anyone go to hell. I can't find a repentance in the afterlife, so it seems this would involve God forcing Himself on the unrepentant ... Interesting, no?

DannyM wrote:...Yes, it does, Bro. And God's love is so righteous that He would not force His love on autonomous man. Which reminds me of the Universalist I've been speaking to, who says that God's love is so great that he wouldn't "let" anyone go to hell. I can't find a repentance in the afterlife, so it seems this would involve God forcing Himself on the unrepentant ... Interesting, no?

Yes, interesting...

There would be no need for faith then

What do you think?
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B. W. wrote:

DannyM wrote:...Yes, it does, Bro. And God's love is so righteous that He would not force His love on autonomous man. Which reminds me of the Universalist I've been speaking to, who says that God's love is so great that he wouldn't "let" anyone go to hell. I can't find a repentance in the afterlife, so it seems this would involve God forcing Himself on the unrepentant ... Interesting, no?

Yes, interesting...

There would be no need for faith then

What do you think?

Yep, no need for a saving faith, no need for repentance. The guy actually said that Christ's work on the cross was a failure if everybody isn't saved ... do you see the irony in that statement given the above, Bro?

DannyM wrote:

B. W. wrote:

DannyM wrote:...Yes, it does, Bro. And God's love is so righteous that He would not force His love on autonomous man. Which reminds me of the Universalist I've been speaking to, who says that God's love is so great that he wouldn't "let" anyone go to hell. I can't find a repentance in the afterlife, so it seems this would involve God forcing Himself on the unrepentant ... Interesting, no?

Yes, interesting...

There would be no need for faith then

What do you think?

Yep, no need for a saving faith, no need for repentance. The guy actually said that Christ's work on the cross was a failure if everybody isn't saved ... do you see the irony in that statement given the above, Bro?

The deeper irony for Universalist doctrine is that it makes Christ’s work on the cross and resurrection completely unnecessary. Why – because since God would never sentence anyone to hell anyways, what need is there for the cross?

I heard Christian Universalist say that there is a hell and it painfully tortures a person until they are purified and that was why Christ Jesus came, so people can skip torture until they cry uncle and love God. The irony of this logic is that it is because of the idea of torture in hell is morally wrong for a loving God to do; yet, then how could any torture be tolerated even if it is temporary?

As much as I appreciate Dante and his writing, Divine Comedy, he nevertheless gives only a one sided view of hell. This view distorts peoples interpretations of the bible about hell. Bible teaches that God’s wrath consist of recompense – what one sows they reap.

Bible also teaches just degrees of recompense as well in hell. Torment involves having the real you exposed for who and what you are. It can be mental or psychical. Jesus gave the illustration of the politically motivated rich guy in Hell as experiencing excessive thirst and utter isolation. You do not see God there torturing the guy anywhere in the text. Therefore, that argument used which states one cannot accept a God who is an eternal torturer is proven false. Just a few points about irony…
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B. W. wrote:The deeper irony for Universalist doctrine is that it makes Christ’s work on the cross and resurrection completely unnecessary. Why – because since God would never sentence anyone to hell anyways, what need is there for the cross?

I heard Christian Universalist say that there is a hell and it painfully tortures a person until they are purified and that was why Christ Jesus came, so people can skip torture until they cry uncle and love God. The irony of this logic is that it is because of the idea of torture in hell is morally wrong for a loving God to do; yet, then how could any torture be tolerated even if it is temporary?

As much as I appreciate Dante and his writing, Divine Comedy, he nevertheless gives only a one sided view of hell. This view distorts peoples interpretations of the bible about hell. Bible teaches that God’s wrath consist of recompense – what one sows they reap.

Bible also teaches just degrees of recompense as well in hell. Torment involves having the real you exposed for who and what you are. It can be mental or psychical. Jesus gave the illustration of the politically motivated rich guy in Hell as experiencing excessive thirst and utter isolation. You do not see God there torturing the guy anywhere in the text. Therefore, that argument used which states one cannot accept a God who is an eternal torturer is proven false. Just a few points about irony…

Thanks, B.W.

Irony here is completely lost on the universalist. Isn’t the lake of fire the torture? ET seems to be the real motivation for the universalist backlash. They appear to genuinely believe that God’s wrath really means God’s correction. All will eventually be ‘corrected.’ God’s wrath is just, and His justice is righteous. Can a just God send a person to hell? Does God love everyone?

Jeremiah 16:5

For this is what the LORD says: Do not enter a house where there is a funeral meal; do not go to mourn or show sympathy, because I have withdrawn my blessing, my love and my pity from this people, declares the LORD.

Goes to show that people have faith and what they place their faith in reveals whom they trust – their own ability to have God dance and perform to their tunes, or naturalism, or secularism, or place faith in the Lord of Host by means of absolute surrender to him to avoid the wrath to come.

Faith is the fair means to gauge and judge the human heart justly and God does search the heart and test the mind (Jeremiah 17:10).
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