Evidence for God from Science

I'm game. But I'm new, so how do we play and what's the rules?
I mean, what is our subject, who is the teacher and where do we begin?
The topic here is 666 which can only be found in Revelation 13. Would that be a good chapter to chose?

Silvertusk wrote:Yeah - How did you get that his Headquaters will be in Rome from all that.

Also I don't think we need to worry as Christians about who the anti-christ is. If he does not come on the clouds of heaven then he is the beast.

Silvertusk.

Perhaps you are right and it just doesn't really matter much.
I have discussed this same topic with many many people, maybe 100 or so over the years, and it surprises me that most have the same general comment that it doesn't really matter or they just don't really care much.
Many are completely baffled, having little knowledge base and a weak understanding of the terminology and related bible verses. It surely is no topic for little children or those new to the bible or new to the end times prophecies.

I have the impression that, even if it could be clearly shown that Rockefeller or any other name is indeed the beast of Revelation 13:18, very few people would even care.

As for me, I guess I'm strange in that I was absolutely fastinated with the book of Daniel and other prophetic scriptures from about age 10. I find it thrilling that our Lord can foretell future events and mankind is unable to do anything to alter that outcome. To me, these scriptures about future kingdoms, rulers, wars and related events are just totally far out and fantastic. I want to know more and more.

Then you and I are strange together. I also find end times prophecy fascinating. Well all prophecy but to see how things in the book of Revelation are threaded throughout so many different scriptures and books of the bible is so very interesting.

I don't know what FL had in mind but I think he meant we would start at the beginning, Rev 1:1 and each of us give our "take" on it. then hash it out so we are all, eventually on the same page insofar as agreeing (or not lol) on what it says and what it means. But I'll let him set the table, so to speak.

Silvertusk wrote:Yeah - How did you get that his Headquaters will be in Rome from all that.

Also I don't think we need to worry as Christians about who the anti-christ is. If he does not come on the clouds of heaven then he is the beast.

Silvertusk.

Then everyone is the beast, no? Unless they are not literal clouds.......

Grizz_1 wrote: I don't know what FL had in mind but I think he meant we would start at the beginning, and each of us give our "take" on it. then hash it out so we are all, eventually on the same page insofar as agreeing (or not lol) on what it says and what it means. But I'll let him set the table, so to speak.

I would prefer starting a study at Rev 1:1 and going on from there. Any person may contribute if he feels moved to do so. Since it was my idea, I volunteer to jump into this cold water first!

Before starting to comment, the reader should be aware that I interpret the Bible according to the Futurist School, as opposed to those who see the Bible through Preterist or Historical School lenses. (Other terms for these schools are: Futurist=Prophetic, Preterist=Covenant, Historical=Presentist. If you don't understand these terms you would do well to look them up.) My viewpoint in any Bible study will be dispensational, pretribulational and premillennial. Lastly, I am by no means an expert! if you are, please help me and other contributors in this study. And may God help us all in opening up this wonderful book whose very name means: The Explaining of a Mystery.

Rev 1:1, who revealed what? Jesus Christ revealed this message from God the Father to His servants (you!) via an angelic messenger sent to John, His friend. It is God's will that you understand this book because it speaks of events which must soon take place. All those with a circumcised ear will understand what the book says because God's will is that you - his servant - understand.

Rev 1:2, who penned this book? John, the disciple whom Jesus loved (Jn 13:23). John identifies himself as the witness of this revelation (Rev 22:8) banished to the island of Patmos (Rev 1:9) because of his activities in the early church.

Rev 1:3, who is blessed? those whom God will bless are those who fulfill one or all of these requisites: 1, Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy (you, or someone reading it publicly); 2, blessed are those who hear it (you or someone who is moved by it); 3 [blessed] are those who take to heart what is written in it. (you who both accept and understand it.)

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See? that wasn't difficult! All I did was to read attentively. I'll write a little more later unless someone beats me to it.

FL

Rev 1:4a, to whom is this revelation addressed? to seven particular churches in the Roman province of Asia (present-day Turkey). There were more than 7 churches in Asia Minor in John's day, so why is this addressed only to seven? First answer: 7 is the number of perfection, God's number, and it speaks of perfection and completion. ''God completes His work in cycles of seven: 7 colours make a spectrum, seven days in a week, seven musical notes make up the scale, there are seven set feasts of Jehovah (Lev 23), seven priests were present at the fall of Jericho and the Israelites marched around the wall seven times on the seventh day before it fell, there were seven sayings on the cross from Christ...in Revelation, the number seven appears 49 times, or seven times seven.''* Second answer: these seven churches may be types of all churches which exist in Christendom from Pentecost until the end of this age. That is: an unforgiving church, a struggling & weary church, an idolatrous church, a complacent & too-inclusive church, a vile church, a loyal church and a lukewarm church. Third answer: These seven churches also represent - with wonderful accuracy - different epochs in the history of the Church on earth. For example, each church faithfully reproduces the spirit of Christianity existing in the world for a set period of time: Ephesus represents the Church from Pentecost to about the year 160CE, and Laodicea represents the current Church until the end of the age. More will be said on this when we get to chapters 2-3.

Rev 1:4b, Who is speaking and wishing us well? ''Grace and peace from he who is, and who was, and who is to come...'' is a greeting to you from God the Father and the sentence is an expository form of His name I AM. Interestingly, it is given in 3 parts (is/was/will be) expressing both eternity and tri-unity. The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all go by this name but it is the Father who speaks to us here. The Holy Spirit pops in next: ''...and from the Seven Spirits before His throne...'' These are not 7 individual entities but 7 manifestations of the Perfect Spirit, God. Read God's description of Himself in my Hebrew Bible:

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, The spirit of Wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and fear of the LORD (Isa 11:2)

There are 7 spirits above. They are:

1. the Spirit of the LORD, 2. The Spirit of Wisdom, 3. The Spirit of Understanding, 4. The Spirit of Counsel, 5. The spirit of Might, 6. The Spirit of Knowledge, 7. The Spirit of Fear (Respect) of the LORD.

Rev 1:5a, Jesus greets you last and tells you, 1: that He is the faithful witness of God, 2: that He is the firstborn of the New Creation, and proclaims Himself Sovereign over all. Rev 1:5b begins John's doxology - a prayer or hymn of praise - to Jesus.

Rev 1:6, continues the hymn of praise and informs us of our true nature: priests of Christ forming a kingdom of servants for the Father.

FL

*adapted from Revelation, outlined study by Lehman Strauss.

Thanks FL! I also would be a Futurist, My views are also dispensational, pretribulational and premillennial. And like you I am no expert. lol.

I have edited this post because I think its important to state that I am a Pre-Trib Rapture guy. Thus my statement below about The Revelation of Jesus Christ.

I would also like to say I believe , and must believe (1), that God means what He says; and (2), that He has a meaning for every word that He says. All His works and all His words are perfect, in their choice, order and place: so perfect, that, if one word or expression is used, there is a reason why no other would have done.

And also the Apocalypse in not about the "Church". Its about God's final dealings with the Jew and the Gentile; not the Church of God.

As I jump into the water I find it rather warm, most likely because it has been made that way by the first jumper.

As to Rev 1:1, Rev 1:2 Rev 1:3 I am in agreement with you. Your right this will be easy!

Now Rev1:4 (I'll be back shortly )

Thanks for your kind words, Grizz

Rev 1:7 is a vision of Jesus' second coming; compare with Matthew 24:30. Every person living at that time will see Him. Zechariah 12 describes the mourning of the tribes of Israel when they realize that they've been rejecting their Messiah all these years, see Zec 12:10-14 especially.

Rev 1:8 is remarkable in that Jesus declares Himself to be God, just in case we didn't get that from His earlier declarations! and again, note that He says it 3 times: ''I am the Alpha and the Omega says the Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty''. This suggests a triune God, each member in perfect harmony with the other, all One and recalls Dt 6:4.

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I am going out of town and will be returning tomorrow evening. Anyone willing may continue this verse-by-verse exposition.

FL

Rev 1:9, John writes telling us where he is and why he is there.

Rev 1:10, ''On the Lord's day...'' starts this verse. Which day is this? Many claim it is the Sabbath - Saturday - but everywhere in the NT ''the Lord's day'' is the first day of the week, Sunday. To be more accurate, everywhere after the resurrection (Mt 28:1) the Lord's day is Sunday. See Ac 20:7, 1 Cor 16:2. The text continues, ''...I was in the Spirit...'' what does this mean? since John was exiled to Patmos, it probably means that he was praying. Apparently, John was alone. The trumpet frequently announces an important message or event in the Bible.

Rev 1:11, The vision is given by Jesus, received in the Spirit, and is a message for 7 specific churches in the Roman province of Asia.

Rev 1:12-13, The first thing John notes when turning around to see the voice speaking to him are 7 golden lampstands, followed by the man dressed in a white robe - the robe of priests - wearing a royal sash (picture the sash worn by European royalty or Miss Universe). Here is the King of Kings.

Rev 1:14, see the description of God in Daniel 7:9 and note that it is the same person now before John. The blazing fire in His eyes speak of piercing vision.

Rev 1:15, ''His feet were like bronze glowing in a furnace...'' says my NIV. Some translations have ''brass.'' Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin; brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Either way, the burnt-orange metal was liberally used in the making of the Temple's furnishings. Throughout the OT, bronze/brass represents strength/power, judgement, and healing (Nu 21:9). In this verse, the bronze feet speak of righteousness that will crush enemies. ''...and his voice was like the sound of rushing waters.'' This speaks of great power. Think of the waves of the sea or the rushing waters of a mountain river.

Rev 1:16a, the Bible always explains itself. Trust no other explanation. The first part of this verse and the vision of the lampstands are explained in verse 20. Rev 1:16b, ''...a sharp double-edged sword... The Word of God -Jesus - speaks with a double-edged sword which ''penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit...it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.'' (Heb 4:12-13)
''His face was like the sun shining...'' Christ is the light of the world, a beacon shining in this dark & sinful world.

Rev 1:17a, John undoubtedly recognized the Man as he had seen Him before in this manner at the Transfiguration. So why did John fall? Because of God's overpowering presence, see also Jn 18:6 and Ac 9:4. Rev 1:17b, the believer need not fear God for Jesus paid the price of your sins. Jesus goes on to once again affirm that He is God.

Rev 1:18, Jesus holds the keys to death and Hades. What is ''death''? Death is the spirit away from the body (Jas 2:26). What is ''Hades''? Possibly the condition of the spirit apart from the body. See Rev 6:8, Rev 20:13-14.

Rev 1:19, A command to write 3 observations: what is past: what John has just witnessed (Revelation, chapter 1); what is now (Revelation, chapters 2 & 3): the message to the 7 churches; what will come: God's plan unfolding after the Church Age (Revelation, cahapters 4 to 22). Rev 4:1 announces the beginning of ''what will take place later.''

Rev 1:20, the explanation of the 7 golden lampstands and the 7 stars.

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End of this study of Revelation 1.

Revelation 2

With Revelation 2 we move into the ''what is now'' that Jesus spoke of in Rev 1:19, that is the time which the Bible calls the ''times of the Gentiles.'' It is a time where Israel is scattered around the world - until the very last moment - and the Gospel is veiled from the majority of humans because of their idolatry (2 Cor 4:3-4) and love of the world (Eph 2:2). Believing Jews and Gentiles have that veil lifted (2 Cor 3:15, 2 Cor 4:3-4) and are able to serve God in proclaiming His truth.

In each of the letters to the 7 churches there is a message which is corporate, a ministring which is personal, and a prophetic announcement. Briefly, the corporate message is for the church to which the letter is addressed; the personal ministring is to each believer throughout time who understands the letters and sees elements of his church in them; the prophetic announcement shows history unfolding as God knew it would in 7 different epochs of the church from Pentecost to the end of the times of the Gentiles.

The first letter is to the church at Ephesus. In order to better understand this letter, read Acts 19 where Paul tells of his time spent there. If you have an archaeological supplement in your Bible, read the entry on Ephesus as well.

I'll let you read up on Ephesus before starting the study of the first letter.

FL

Letter to the Church at Ephesus

Rev 2:1, a message from Jesus. The right hand is a symbol of power, see Ps 16:8, Ps 63:8, Eph 1:20. Believers are led surely by God (Ps 23:1-end) and He cares for us (Jn 10:27-28).

Rev 2:2, The early church had separated itself from the world and Jesus commended them for this. God sees all and nothing is hidden from Him. He is a righteous judge on whom you can count. In the midst of immoral paganism and hostile Judaism, the Ephesian church worked hard and was perseverant in winning souls to Christ. Jesus admired their intolerance of evil and false teachers.

Rev 2:3, Jesus acknowledges the Ephesian churche's bravery in the face of persecution for His Name and recognizes the steadfastness of their faith.

Rev 2:4, What is it that Jesus holds against Ephesus? Their lovelessness. They had lost the new love they experienced at their salvation when everything was beautiful and joyous. They were now just going through the motions. They were acting like an old spouse fallen out of love and into routine. Their heart had cooled towards Jesus but they were still ''Christians.'' What about you? Has your heart cooled?

Rev 2:5, Jesus' warning to this church is to Remember their first love, to Repent of their falling away, Or Else the church will die.

Rev 2:6, Nicolaitians were a group in the early church which sought to meld paganism with Christian practices. This survives in some churches today. God hates such joining.

Rev 2:7, ''...to him who overcomes...'' an encouraging message: even in such a loveless church, some people will be saved and go on to enjoy eternal life.

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Summary

The Ephesian church started out strong and in love with Jesus. This love moved them to overcome sinful tendencies of their former religious lives and then on to great accomplishments in winning souls. Unfortunately, over time they had started just going through the motions. God hates a bride who just does the minimum (see the parable of the 10 virgins in Mt 25.) The honeymoon was over, so to speak. This way of being parallels that of most Christians and Christian assemblies. What about you and your assembly? Ho-Hum Christians and churches will be swept away and left out in the cold for they never had any lasting interest in the things of God. A sobering warning from Jesus who eventually did take away the lampstand from Ephesus: that church no longer exists and is now a place where archaeologists dig looking for bits of pottery and coins.

Letter to the Church at Smyrna

Rev 2:8, Once again, Jesus affirms He is God and adds, '' died and came to life again'' perhaps as a prophetic preface of what was to befall the church at Smyrna. BTW, smyrna is a semitic word meaning myrrh, a resin used in those days in the making of perfume, anointing oil and embalming ingredients. To release its fragrance, myrrh must be crushed and ground. Think of the prophetic implication.

Rev 2:9, ''I know your afflictions and your poverty - yet you are rich!... Good works by the faithful while in the body bring heavenly reward (Mt 6:19-20). Also, Jesus Himself knew poverty while in His earthly ministry, Mt 8:20, and though He owned everything, became a pauper for you, 2 Cor 8:9. Smyrna was probably the most persecuted of the 7 churches because it is the only one that God has pronounced ''rich,'' heavenly speaking, Mt 5:11. The verse continues, I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. The church at Smyrna was not only surrounded by pagans but by a hostile Jewish community which must have disheartened them deeply. It is one thing for a damned pagan to mock you but when your own family shake their head and belittle you, it must be difficult.

Rev 2:10, an admonishment to stand up under hard times to come, the reward promised being the crown of life, see James 1:12. ...and you will suffer persecution for 10 days. A literal reading of the text would suggest this was a period of 10 consecutive days of persecution, and that may be so. There is no historical information to either prove or disprove this. I favour a literal meaning with a prophetic application. Prophetically, there were a series of 10 edicts by Roman Caesars ordering the persecution of Christians, spanning a period of about 230 years.

Rev 2:11, ...He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. There are several bits of information here: 1. some will overcome, some will fail. 2. the second death (the separation from God) will be painful; some in Smyrna will die the second death.

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Summary

Smyrna is a church under seige. Compare it to the church in China which operates illegally, or to the church in Muslim counties which operates legally but endures popular scorn and officious malevolence, or to the Messianic synagogues in the West who suffer derision from their Jewish bretheren. If you are in such a church, count yourself lucky! but remember that salvation is always personal and not corporate. You must be saved to get the crown of life, are you? Being in the best church in the world is no guarantee of salvation.

Letter to the Church at Pergamum

Rev 2:12, the sharp double-edged sword refers to the word of God: to the Word - God Himself - of John 1:1, to the word of Hebrews 4:12 that analyses our thoughts & attitudes, to the word of judgement of Isaiah 49:2. Jesus judges everything by the Word of God and by its study we can know what will be our ultimate fate.

Rev 2:13a, unlike Ephesus and Smyrna which were cities of industry & commerce, Pergamum was a city of wealth and debonair life. Compare it to Monaco or Las Vegas or Macao, three cities where Hedonism (pleasure) is god. While in Smyrna there was a ''synagogue of Satan,'' here in Pergamum we have Satan's very throne. What does this mean? First, Pergamum was a city of many pagan temples built to various Roman, Greek and Semitic gods. These temples came with their priests and both male & female attendants whose job it was to copulate with the faithful in worship of the temple's deity. Second, Pergamum was a city of wealth partly because of all the offerings brought to it by visiting worshippers. Third, Pergamum was generally a place for holy debauchery. Rev 2:13b, ''...You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city...'' Jesus recognizes the steadfastness of the faithful in Pergamum in the face of persecution, even unto the martyrdom of one of theirs. Such faith is required of all true believers, 1 Cor 4:2.

Rev 2:14-15, The Lord then goes on to His grievances against the church at Pergamum. The two grievances are, 1: Balaamism, or the corrupting of believers by friendship with the world, and 2: Nicolaitianism, a melding of paganism and Christianity that makes Jesus more acceptable to unbelievers. Read the story of Balaam in Numbers 22-23-24-25. Balaam was punished by God (read Nu 31, pay special attention to Nu 31:16) for encouraging foreign women to seduce Israelites in order to take them away from the worship of God.

Rev 2:16, An order to recognize wrongdoing and to undo it. ''Otherwise...'' Jesus will come and ''...fight against them [the Balaamite/Nicolaitian influences] with the sword of my mouth''. This speaks of swift judgement.

Rev 2:17, again the implication here is that some will not understand and will not be saved in this church, as not all will hear or overcome worldly influences.

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Summary

Although we are in the world, we are not of the world. A church is usually at its closest to God under duress or trial. A church which mixes worldly philosophy and the Word is an abomination in God's sight and any such mixing will end in the church's (or a denomination's) downfall or corruption. Even in such a corrupt church, some will inherit eternal life.

Letter to the Church at Thyatira

Rev 2:18, it is significant that Christ introduces Himself as ''Son of God'' to this church, closely followed by a description of His ''eyes of burning fire and feet of burnished bronze.'' We've already seen that fire in the eyes speak of all-discerning sight (Rev 1:14) and bronze feet of power exercised in righteous judgement (Rev 1:15). This introduction to the church at Thyatira is decidingly menacing.

Rev 2:19, there is a lot of information here! God commends them for:

-''your deeds'': obviously, they had good works which Christ approved of,
-''your love'': love is the very essence of God (1 Jn 4:8-16) and love is why Jesus died a sinner's death even though no sin was found in Him. Also, it is quite possible to do good deeds methodically but without love. Think of someone routinely giving large amounts of money to the needy in order to lower their income tax, or to look good in public. God knew the Thyatirans' deeds were done out of pure motives.
-''[your] faith'': faith itself is a gift of God (Heb 12:2) and evidently some Thyatirans had received this gift.
-''your service'': service in the church is the personal ministry which God has entrusted to each of us. This isn't a job which you do because you have to; ministry - service - is love in action.
-''[your] perseverance'': if service is love in action, perseverance is faith (a.k.a. love) confirmed.
-''...and that you are now doing more than you did at first.'' Here were individual Christians growing in works, love and faith as time went on. They didn't wane, as many do, they grew. What about you?

Rev 2:20, the reproach. This church was so open and loving that they lacked discernment. Jesus compares their prophetess to the OT figure of Jezebel, a woman who introduced Baal worship to the Israelites in the Northern Kingdom. I was in a service at an unfamiliar church a while ago and the priest started speaking about reincarnation! At another church - supposedly ''Baptist'' - the pastor pronounced a sermon on the importance Satan plays in God's Kingdom! Imagine a new Christian being served crap of this type and swallowing it whole. Dogs can eat sh*t and digest it; people can ingest spiritual crap and live by it.

Rev 2:21, the pastors and priests of heretical churches will no more give up their beliefs than Jezebel did.

Rev 2:22, Jesus promises unrepentant followers of Jezebel intense suffering. This may be both literal (in the immediate for the prophetess and her followers) and prophetic in the afterlife for all unrepentant sinners. Certainly intense suffering would describe hell.

Rev 2:23, a stern warning. Not only will those who promote spiritual perversions be punished but they will cause the death of their children as well.

Rev 2:24-25, Thyatira was a church with a prophetess who claimed to have received a new message from God. Some in the church were not polluted by this Jezebel because they either did not receive the message or did not understand it. Jesus does not ask them to fight their Jezebel as He already promised to take care of the matter in verses 22-23. He promises to not impose any other burden on them and asks them to remain in the faith ''until I come''. The ''until I come'' may refer back to verse 22 where Jesus pronounces punishment; prophetically, it may refer to the Second Coming. Some commentators I've read think the prophetic implications here also include the coming of the Reformation.

Rev 2:26, again, as in every previous church message we've studied, the implication is that some in this church will be saved and some will not.

Rev 2:27, those who hold onto the faith until the end of their lives will be richly rewarded. Implicitly, those who do not never had the gift of faith to begin with.

Rev 2:28, the morning star speaks of Jesus in you, 2 Pe 1:19.

Rev 2:29, if you are able to understand, you will understand. Implicitly, if you think this is bunk you are toast already.

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Summary

There are honest people who genuinely love the God of the Bible, even in heretical churches. God knows who they are and promises them a future with Him. God also sternly warns them not to pay attention to false teachings of self-styled prophets whose end will be in hell. There are a lot of such churches today. Can you name any of them? If you can't, what does that say about your knowledge of the Bible?

Hmmmmm-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-NkJdAO ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swuLqqij ... re=related