Evidence for God from Science

Okay, guess I'll try. To do so, please know that I do not like to post links about myself but this is from a TV show Docudrama about my testimony - it is a little Hollywoodish in style but it was made for a secular audience so please note that. I post this to help this thread… and play catch up for those who do not know who I am. With a testimony like mine, people reactions to me are mixed and I do have think skin…

is there a part 2 available?


Daniel

Just brought the book from amazon - will find out what happens in part 2 after I read John Lennox's new book.

Silvertusk.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

Okay, guess I'll try. To do so, please know that I do not like to post links about myself but this is from a TV show Docudrama about my testimony - it is a little Hollywoodish in style but it was made for a secular audience so please note that. I post this to help this thread… and play catch up for those who do not know who I am. With a testimony like mine, people reactions to me are mixed and I do have think skin…

is there a part 2 available?

Daniel

There should be. The whole show on was on UTuBe not too long ago. I went to find it to help provide a link for you but I could not locate the other parts. However, the Link Below is from 2008 at a big church in Maryland and all the 10 minute parts are still easy to find.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piHZkKFdsFc

I'll keep looking for other part of the show..

B.W.

What do you think of my argument here?

"If you take the fire literally, it does not make sense since hell is darkness, but if there are flames of fire, they would produce light."

Christian2 wrote:B.W.

What do you think of my argument here?

"If you take the fire literally, it does not make sense since hell is darkness, but if there are flames of fire, they would produce light."

IMO the fire is allegorical, representing extreme anguish resulting from total separation from God (state of being completely devoid of love). Hell may or may not be a literal place, it could be a state of mind (like B.W. alluded to, perhaps in a different dimension). Obviously awareness would be part and parcel of such a state of mind.

Christian2 wrote:B.W.

What do you think of my argument here?

"If you take the fire literally, it does not make sense since hell is darkness, but if there are flames of fire, they would produce light."

I said before, that the fire may or may not be literal. After reading your post, Christian2, I changed my mind. If I'm going to stay consistent with OEC, it can't be literal fire. The new creation will come after this one passes away. The temporal things won't exist for eternity. Oxygen is one thing that won't exist in the new creation, IMO. If there's no oxygen, there's no fire. Fire needs oxygen to burn.

Concerning descriptions about hell in the bible:

Fire is both literal and allegorical. Duet 32:22 the word fire describes an area of molten rock at where the foundations of the mountains are. Fire is a fire that does not consume as Isaiah 66:24 speaks of. Fire is used both in literal and figurative senses within the bible and with that is how one should view the fires of hell as both because that is what they are.

Darkness is likewise is both literal and allegorical as it does throughout the bible. Darkness symbolic for a person’s dark side, or gloom, ruin, moral rot, sin, death, etc.. or literal cave like darkness…

Ezekiel 32:18-30 describes the current hell as a pit as does Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 9:1, 2, 11 and Numbers 16:30, Job 33:28, Isaiah 14:15, Isaiah 24:22, Zechariah 9:11…

In any cavernous region within the earth, the deeper you go, the hotter it gets. Go deep enough, you’ll see flames but if you are in the upper regions, you feel heat and be in darkness. Since the bible describes hell as a bottomless pit so we can understand it, think of it like that. Also think of passageways inside a cavern – some may see fire’s of molten rock and other passageways bathed in dark gloomy light… That would be a good description of it as it matches all the biblical references of the pit, fire, and darkness regarding hell.

Hope that helps: it is best not to get hung up on all this. The real problem is that people refuse to acknowledge sin. Sin is taught as a mistake, a boo boo, someone else’s fault, a psychological issues easily treated with therapy or positive confessions alone so much so that people no longer think they deserve wrath.

You and I, we, need to explain the gravity of sin. Either the wrath of God abides over people or not. Bible says it does. The way it is taught in many parts of the church, it - not so much. Jesus came to set at liberty captives; therefore, the goodness of God does indeed lead one to repentance. Repentance is a life altering event…altering the course of ones life. Never hide the truth. Be bold and proclaim the name of the Lord.
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RickD wrote:

Christian2 wrote:B.W.

What do you think of my argument here?

"If you take the fire literally, it does not make sense since hell is darkness, but if there are flames of fire, they would produce light."

I said before, that the fire may or may not be literal. After reading your post, Christian2, I changed my mind. If I'm going to stay consistent with OEC, it can't be literal fire. The new creation will come after this one passes away. The temporal things won't exist for eternity. Oxygen is one thing that won't exist in the new creation, IMO. If there's no oxygen, there's no fire. Fire needs oxygen to burn.

Edit:the above is relating to the final hell. The lake of fire. Hades, presently could be somewhere inside the earth.

RickD wrote:

RickD wrote:

Christian2 wrote:B.W.

What do you think of my argument here?

"If you take the fire literally, it does not make sense since hell is darkness, but if there are flames of fire, they would produce light."

I said before, that the fire may or may not be literal. After reading your post, Christian2, I changed my mind. If I'm going to stay consistent with OEC, it can't be literal fire. The new creation will come after this one passes away. The temporal things won't exist for eternity. Oxygen is one thing that won't exist in the new creation, IMO. If there's no oxygen, there's no fire. Fire needs oxygen to burn.

Edit:the above is relating to the final hell. The lake of fire. Hades, presently could be somewhere inside the earth.

You raised an interesting point about the lake of fire if O2 does not exist - yet - the sun and stars - they do not use O2? There maybe something new that keeps the fire stoked... Not sure - interesting idea
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Katabole wrote:

Christian2 wrote:The words and terms you read in the Bible, such as fire or flames, lake of fire, etc. are a figure of speech.

Not always. Check out Korah's rebellion in Numbers ch 16.

Num 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Where did the fire originate from? From the Lord. Why? Because our God is a consuming fire, (Deut 4:24, Heb 12:29).

Or when Aaron's sons offered strange fire before the Lord, look at what happened.

Lev 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Again, where did the fire originate? From the Lord.

I believe the lake of fire is a figure of speech and that God will consume all evil at the end of this age in the same way he consumed Aaron's sons and those of Korah's rebellion, consuming everything about them, including the memory that others have about them, IMHO.

I asked a Jew's opinion on these Scriptures. I wanted to know if it was a literal fire.

He said:

"The word in question is אש which is found hundreds of times in the Bible. It's used in many cases where it's simply fire (like the Binding of Isaac narrative). It's also the same word used for what came down upon Sodom and Gomorah. There is no clue with the word itself if it's "regular" or special fire. If I had to choose, I'd say it was special fire simply because it came from God."

B. W. wrote:Concerning descriptions about hell in the bible:

Fire is both literal and allegorical. Duet 32:22 the word fire describes an area of molten rock at where the foundations of the mountains are. Fire is a fire that does not consume as Isaiah 66:24 speaks of. Fire is used both in literal and figurative senses within the bible and with that is how one should view the fires of hell as both because that is what they are.

Darkness is likewise is both literal and allegorical as it does throughout the bible. Darkness symbolic for a person’s dark side, or gloom, ruin, moral rot, sin, death, etc.. or literal cave like darkness…

Ezekiel 32:18-30 describes the current hell as a pit as does Revelation 20:3 and Revelation 9:1, 2, 11 and Numbers 16:30, Job 33:28, Isaiah 14:15, Isaiah 24:22, Zechariah 9:11…

In any cavernous region within the earth, the deeper you go, the hotter it gets. Go deep enough, you’ll see flames but if you are in the upper regions, you feel heat and be in darkness. Since the bible describes hell as a bottomless pit so we can understand it, think of it like that. Also think of passageways inside a cavern – some may see fire’s of molten rock and other passageways bathed in dark gloomy light… That would be a good description of it as it matches all the biblical references of the pit, fire, and darkness regarding hell.

Hope that helps: it is best not to get hung up on all this. The real problem is that people refuse to acknowledge sin. Sin is taught as a mistake, a boo boo, someone else’s fault, a psychological issues easily treated with therapy or positive confessions alone so much so that people no longer think they deserve wrath.

You and I, we, need to explain the gravity of sin. Either the wrath of God abides over people or not. Bible says it does. The way it is taught in many parts of the church, it - not so much. Jesus came to set at liberty captives; therefore, the goodness of God does indeed lead one to repentance. Repentance is a life altering event…altering the course of ones life. Never hide the truth. Be bold and proclaim the name of the Lord.
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I think you are right that people do not take sin seriously enough. Muslims say sin is just a mistake. Neither Judaism or Islam believe in the concept of original sin; therefore, neither sees the need for salvation coming from the Christ. They are going to be just fine if they do the best they can and repent.

When I was an atheist I never worried about heaven or hell -- no God -- no heaven or hell. Now that I am a Christian I still don't worry about it because if there is a heaven I have assurance I will be there and if there is a hell I know I won't be there.

The whole subject was brought to my attention when some Jews I know complained about the "X-tian" view of hell, so I looked into it. Notice that some Jews will not write Jesus' name or Christian or Christianity -- it's disguised by deliberately misspelling -- "Jebus" for Jesus for instance and the put an "x" for Christ. There is a Scripture that says Jews cannot say the name of another God and they think Jesus is another God. Not all Jews go this far, perhaps just the Orthodox.

It seems that somewhere beneath the earth there is much heat -- the "pit"?

Clipped from an article on the Internet:

Scientist and Bible teacher, Henry Morris also agrees the Bible plainly teaches that hell is in this earth:

"So far as we can tell from Scripture, the present hell, is somewhere in the heart of the earth itself. It is also called 'the pit' (Isa. 14:9, 15: Ezek. 32:18-21) and 'the abyss' (Rev. 9:2). . .
The writers certainly themselves believed hell to be real and geographically 'beneath' the earth's surface. . .
To say this is not scientific is to assume science knows much more about the earth's interior than is actually the case. The great 'pit' [hell] would only need to be about 100 miles or less in diameter to contain, with much room to spare, all the forty billion or so people who have ever lived, assuming their 'spiritual' bodies are the same size as their physical bodies."
(Henry M. Morris, The Bible Has the Answer, p. 220)
The Birmingham News, April 10, 1987 had an article entitled "Earth's Center Hotter Than Sun's Surface, Scientists Say". The article stated that scientists have recently discovered, "THE EARTH'S INNER CORE HAS A TEMPERATURE OF OVER 12,000 DEGREES FAHRENHEIT!"

Source: http://www.666soon.com/tour.htm

Muslims believe that all will eventually end up in heaven, with the exception of those who associate other Gods with God, like Christians who believe in the Trinity -- that sin is unforgivable.

Thanks for your comments.

Christian2, you bring up several great points concerning what others place his or her faith. It is interesting how all other worlds religious teachings place faith in human ability/works to earn some sort of favor either during life, or after, or a combination of both.

Jesus’ teaching says the opposite, we are to place our faith in what he did. That one cannot earn favor with God for all our works are like a filthy rag. Only salvation can come through God alone and no other; hence, faith in His grace shed upon the cross for the sins of the world. This requires a change of heart that only God can cause within each person.

So that one’s new works a believer is to do are not works of our own efforts to stay saved, or remain saved, but rather of him working thru us HIS works of LOVE. The Love that chasten us, help us grow, repent, and become a better people than we were the day before demonstrated by how we live our lives pliable to His will to grow in faith in Him that is energized by his love.

Agape love is the kind and type that chastens, listens, nurtures, fosters, trains, equips, edifies, weeps, morns, dances with joy, and remains always true to the author of the love found by faith. A believing person remains true by faith despite all one’s hardship, toils, sufferings, pain, sickness, even all the good times and blest times, they always remain true to the Lord who bought them by his redeeming blood.

They at times grow weary, discouraged, tired, and some may have doubts that cause them to stray but the Lord, the Good Shepherd will go after his own who have stayed and bear them upon his shoulders and lead them back home. That is love (Agape), and the kind that the Lord desires us to learn to reflect through our own personal lessons of life. That is the Christian walk. We should be teaching these truths again in the church and let the Holy Spirit do the work of God within our hearts and lives.

That is what Christianity teaches in a nutshell which is so far different from the ways of the world that do not rely on God’s grace and marks of the true way. Human beings need to know what road to walk from among so many. This road is uniquely marked out by God so one recognizes the true way home by the mere difference from all other ways out there.

I remember my mother telling me when I was a child, “...just because all your friends and classmates are swearing and partying doesn’t make it right. If they all jumped off a cliff would you?” Ah – got to love a mother’s wisdom!

People do place their faith in things and live by what they place their faith in...Sometimes it takes a strong hand of love to correct us back from the errors we made... The teaching about eternal recompense in hell does just that.
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Here's one for you B.W.

I said I believe people choose hell in many ways.

From a Jew: "Christianity asks us to believe things that are not provable from our world, and some things (such as the Trinity doctrine and the Hypostatic Union) which are contrary to everything logical. If our mind refuses to accept what is unnatural to it, you're saying that we choose hell by behaving to the best of our moral ability yet refusing what is illogical and unreasonable. That makes no sense to me at all."

Wow B.W. that was a powerful sermon and testimony and i am glad God has given you a second chance, i hope when my day of judgement comes i will be ready.
There is so much that is still wrong with my life and i hope God can help me correct these before my time is finished.
When i get some money i am going to purchase your book off of amazon so i can share your story with my friends.

Your friend in Christ
Daniel

Christian2 wrote:Here's one for you B.W.

I said I believe people choose hell in many ways.

From a Jew: "Christianity asks us to believe things that are not provable from our world, and some things (such as the Trinity doctrine and the Hypostatic Union) which are contrary to everything logical. If our mind refuses to accept what is unnatural to it, you're saying that we choose hell by behaving to the best of our moral ability yet refusing what is illogical and unreasonable. That makes no sense to me at all."

Ask your friend:

Is God incomprehensible or comprehensible?

...and see what he answers and nore these verses to him Psalms 145:3 and Job 11:7, 8, 9, 10, 11


Concerning believing things that are not provable from our world as on objection, ask him if he believes in the Torah and the Prophets?

...and Have him read Isaiah 64:5 in the JPS or Isaiah 64:6 in NASB
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