Evidence for God from Science

sailornaruto39 wrote:so we are pre designed to know right from wrong? Wrong. The fact remains that many people have different opinions of moral behavior.

How do you know they have different opinions of moral behavior?

Abortion is an issue I see thrown around a lot, and justifying it usually results from a selfish desire to prize one's life over another. I've a sneaking suspicion that it is not actually the desire to do good that drives a lot of "opinions" on morality.

My thoughts anyways. As to your question about the tree I can't really help you, I've not put a lot of thought into it yet.

like not to play with matches but ultimately it is their choice if they want to listen to me or not and if they do not they will have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

And that i totally get, but would you put the matches in the room?
And when you say see it as symbolism, as you saying you don't take it literally?

"I have one question for you, if you wanted to create a being that could love you how would you go about that process and remember real love is when it is a choice."
I guess the best way to humanly answer that is to just make it random and see how it goes.

How do you know they have different opinions of moral behavior?

The knowing iam talking about is best way humanly possible. I know by how they carry themselves,i can ask them, they can tell me of course i don't know with godly knowing,but as far as i can do

As to your question about the tree I can't really help you, I've not put a lot of thought into it yet.

NP

@rick: sorry, wrong person i guess

I guess the best way to humanly answer that is to just make it random and see how it goes

Please elaborate, how would making everything random produce a being that could reciprocate love?

I guess the best way to humanly answer that is to just make it random and see how it goes

Please elaborate, how would making everything random produce a being that could reciprocate love?

And that i totally get, but would you put the matches in the room?
And when you say see it as symbolism, as you saying you don't take it literally?

No i dont take the tree literally but that is just my opinion, while i would put the matches away so my children would have a hard time getting at them Adam and Eve were adults and were capable of making a choice. I know it is wrong to kill someone, i have the means to do so if i want to but i dont because of choice, just because the "tree" was there does not nulify their choice.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:

I guess the best way to humanly answer that is to just make it random and see how it goes

Please elaborate, how would making everything random produce a being that could reciprocate love?

Iam not sure. I guess give him a mind with cognitive thinking. As far as i can see the rest is up to him.
I don't know how god gives us the minds we have, or how he designed it so that we know how to use free will, something i was asking about earlier.

Iam not sure. I guess give him a mind with cognitive thinking. As far as i can see the rest is up to him.
I don't know how god gives us the minds we have, or how he designed it so that we know how to use free will, something i was asking about earlier.

And here lies the problem of sin. God endowed us with "cognitive thinking" aka freewill whether the tree is real or not is not the issue here, it was a choice we made. We rejected God and decided not to trust him and instead trust our own judgement, God being all love and everything that love is 1Corinthians 13:4-7 could not look on us anymore and that is why Jesus came to die for us, taking on our sin so that we may be able to stand in the presence of God again.
God has made the sacrifice nessesary for our salvation, he gave up himself because he loved us so much that he didnt want to be parted from one single person.
Unfortunately this is the connundrum either God makes us robots incapable of true love or he gives us freewill fully knowing that we would abuse it, i know which option i would want God to make.

Daniel

why am i getting double posts??????????????????
i only clicked once!!

@ sailor,

I think you are up to make your point that God indeed was unjust when he planted the tree. You think there is a contradiction here and you think that if he was all loving he would have never placed the tree in the first place and we would all be in a utopia...did I get what you are saying essentially, in broad strokes?

Earlier you responded

like not to play with matches but ultimately it is their choice if they want to listen to me or not and if they do not they will have to suffer the consequences of their actions.

And that i totally get, but would you put the matches in the room?
And when you say see it as symbolism, as you saying you don't take it literally?

The problem here is, you are saying that there should not be matches in any place, matches should never have been invented or developed. (You enjoy logic and at the same time you are saying that a "roll back" to the previous condition was ideal.) Of course no one would put the matches in the room, but hey you are not gonna throw all of your matches from you kitchen to your backyard trash either. You would keep it in the kitchen but still I can assure you that somehow children will always find a way to get them, wouldn't they? We are talking about eventuality here. it is gonna happen sooner or later. Its like teaching your children about sex, you can do it your self or you can let them learn on their own, ppl do it both ways, all around the world. What God simply did was he let them know it was wrong. it can't be eliminated but man can be made aware of it, it is part of the whole design. Good and evil exist, so if you can't get this simple thing, then I am afraid you are just looking at it from the wrong position. And from there no one can help you.

if God is guilty and unjust about the tree then, I am afraid, every man who ever told his son, to stay away from marijuana, alcohol, or unwanted sex, bad company or anything he doesn't find good, is also guilty and unjust. After all, not telling your children about them would only save it for a time, it could, and probably would, happen eventually.

Nice post Neo

Why not? If we are the product of purely natural causes (can nature produce nature?) then this is what we are. Apart from being emotional, what rational argument do you have against this?

sailornaruto39 wrote:*rolles eyes*

Like i said, humans should reason with emotions and logic.But to answer your question none,but that is like asking me to prove to plus 2 with out taking 2 things and showing you. Why should we listen to god? Just because he can hurt you?

You can roll your eyes until the cows come home, but I really am asking for a rational argument, not an emotional one. If you are claiming to present logic, then please, what is the logical objection? You still haven't provided one.

"Why should we listen to god? Just because he can hurt you?"

I'm sure this seems fantastical from your end, but it means nothing to the Christian.

Of course we are. If we are here for a purpose, then we are quite obviously of infinite more value than if we weren’t.

sailornaruto39 wrote: like i said,that is subjective,

No, it is a fact: if we are here for a purpose - eternal life in Christ - then we are of infinite more value than if we were not.

sailornaruto39 wrote:alot of people would prefer to not be a product of the god of the bibile, with him and his track record.

Is this a moral objection? Please justify such an objection.

sailornaruto39 wrote:Some people see this life as the only one,which is why you should make the best of it they say.

There’s your subjectivity!

What? Please explain the “possession” bit.

sailornaruto39 wrote:do we not have to devote our life to him? Does he not use use in certain ways?
Do we not belong to him?

And how does this make us His “possession”? You didn’t answer my ‘free will’ post back in the thread, but would you like to take a shot at it now?

and sailor,

while emotions do carry value, they are rationally not a factor in reasoning or argumentation. As Danny rightly pointed out earlier; this is no place to vent and give emotional pleas for your argument. All this - I don't like the way it turned out - kind of statements, is a waste of time.

If you can reason, then reason...we're all civilised here, if that's what's keeping you


@daniel

Nice post Neo

You had a nice point, I just backed you up

Why should we listen to god? Just because he can hurt you?

Ah...don't you think you kind of overdid it here or am I misreading you here?. Don't tell me you think we obey God cuz he can hurt us if we don't. That's class 101 BS, at its best; I hope you are aware of it.

You had a nice point, I just backed you up

yea i know thats why i was giving you a hug , you explained the part that i was struggling to explain

neo-x wrote:

Why should we listen to god? Just because he can hurt you?

Ah...don't you think you kind of overdid it here or am I misreading you here?. Don't tell me you think we obey God cuz he can hurt us if we don't. That's class 101 BS, at its best; I hope you are aware of it.

Oh what a futile rebellion it is, Neo

neo-x wrote:
Why should we listen to god? Just because he can hurt you?


Ah...don't you think you kind of overdid it here or am I misreading you here?. Don't tell me you think we obey God cuz he can hurt us if we don't. That's class 101 BS, at its best; I hope you are aware of it.


Oh what a futile rebellion it is, Neo

Indeed bro!it almost always come down to, "I don't like God that is why I super-punched rationality right in-between the legs and gave atheism another number to add"