Evidence for God from Science

The Universe was created by Something. And that Something was also created by what preceeded it. The Universe created planets and suns, and human life. There is a creative force in the Universe. The universe creates.

God is not any "created" thing. God is the creative force itself.

This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth,...

buddhawarrior wrote:I believe in practicing Bakti to all the world. Though I am not a push over or a softy. I practice Bakti to my own needs as well. If I need sleep, I sleep a divine sleep. If I am hungry I eat a divine meal. If I don't want to interact with a person, I simply let them know. I'm not perfect in any way shape or form. But by placing Bakti yoga high on my priority list, it's improved my life immensely.

buddhawarrior wrote:

B. W. wrote:

buddhawarrior wrote:...If we are to have any discussion in philosophy I must first state that referencing the bible as fact because the bible says so is a basic logical fallacy, begging the question. And if are to use philosophy or Logic to deduce God, then the Bible has to be thrown out on fallacious grounds. But that does not mean the bible isn't a good and useful book, and has provided soul food for so many over vast time. But as a vehicle for producing Proof of an "EXCLUSIVE" God, it is awful.

I would also keep this discussion confined to a just one topic, whether or not Christians have the EXCLUSIVE way to God....

...If we are to have any discussion in philosophy I must first state that referencing the ancient Hindu tradition called Bakti Yoga as fact because Bakti yoga/ Devotional Yoga says so is a basic logical fallacy, begging the question. And if are to use philosophy or Logic to deduce God, then Bakti yoga/ Devotional Yoga has to be thrown out on fallacious grounds. But that does not mean the Bakti yoga/ Devotional Yoga isn't a good and useful book, and has provided soul food for so many over vast time. But as a vehicle for producing Proof of an "EXCLUSIVE" God, it is awful. I would also keep this discussion confined to a just one topic, whether or not Christians have the EXCLUSIVE way to God...

wow, that's funny, looks like you didn't even try here. Are you playing games or having a serious disgussion? I think I played this game with my 4 year old cousin once. Real logical on your part. From your original post, i thought you would be the one who could reason this out with me, but it seems you rather like to take it personally and make it into a childish game.

well played, sir..

buddhawarrior wrote:Hi. I'll just give a little background about myself and why I'm asking this question.

I was a devote Christian in my teens. Then left the church Senior year and haven't been back since. I have since studied on my own, many world religions and more practically have practiced on my own with methods from Buddhism, Hinduism, Kaballah, Native American Shamans, Modern Psychology, Neuro linguistic programing, and use of psychedelic sacraments and astral projection and lucid dreaming. I have seen God on several occasions and have had a near death experience as well. I am not of any religion, and quite frankly my definition of GOD makes me more of an atheist to most people. I don't like religion, but I love what they have to offer to the honest seeker of the HIGHEST truth.

my discussions with Christians often ends like this. They tell me, "that's nice. We'll pray for you." and I'll probe deeper and I end up finding that they do not think that my way to God is valid, and that only their way is valid because the Bible says so. But I feel the other way too. I feel that Christianity is great for building local community, keeping kids out of trouble, develops ethical and moral behavior in it's members, but does nothing for the person who REALLY wants to KNOW and EXPERIENCE God. In order to put your soul on a rocket ship to visit and hang with God and to learn to become the Messiah yourself, there are so many methods available, and Jesus used them to become who he is.

First of all, the Bible does not say Jesus is the only way. It often says Jesus is the Best way, or a great way, or a way, but never the only way. The verse most often quoted, John 14:4 is so misread. But only because Christians have not taken a look at other Messiahs living amongst us today of other religions. Jesus taught in the Hindu tradition of Bakti Yoga, or loosely translated as devotional Yoga. Hundreds, if not thousands of Saints and Gurus (before and after Jesus) decide to go this route. Devotional yoga is simply this, I am the closest thing to God you will ever come across, worship me like a God, and you will get a sense of what God is like. And as you get familiar with that sense, drop me, and go straight to God himself. Use me as training wheels until you can do it yourself. And Jesus often spoke in this manor. And any student of Hinduism and Buddhism and Seikism knows that Jesus was just another saint who taught through Bakti Yoga. But because Christians get so caught up in the, “he’s the one and ONLY way” they never study under any other methods and don’t realize the bigger picture. There are many living Gurus today who have performed as many, if not more miracles than Jesus. I know some, and I have witnessed the miracles. And when I witnessed for myself, I asked myself, “if Jesus was alive today, and I saw him perform miracles, would I believe?” and the answer is “YES”. So then I must believe in the Gurus I have met and know that Jesus is just but One of the Many who have come to show us the way.

The First three commandments, 1. I am your God. 2. do not worship other Gods, 3. don't use my name in vain. These too are incredibly misread, simply because of the old christian Dogma.

My reading of it is this. God, the creator of all things can not possibly be a thing itself, because a thing is created and God is the creator. So all material things, all measurable things. All the things one can see and think and imagine, any thoughts, ideas, etc are all part of the material realm, which is created by God. Do not worship any created thing, any idols, any graven images, etc. That means all sorts of things, basically everything you can think of or imagine, or see, or hear, anything in this reality should not be worshiped like you worship God the creator. But that means also the bible, Jesus, Christianity, dogma, etc. These are all created things, which should take less importance than the creator, The creator can not have a will, or personality, or desires or judgment because those are all created things, and the creator does not have the attributes of created things. Jesus was created and also creates. I was created and also create. We are all in the image of God and have God in us and are performing God's work all the time. All material and immaterial things in the known universe are created by God and perform God's work all the time. That is the nature of our physical universe.

If someone tells me that my methods are incorrect and that only his book and his imaginary hero has the right method, then he is violating commandment number three. He is taking the lords name in vain, calling something God when it isn't at all.

God is the creative force, like gravity. You can not worship gravity. gravity does not care when you die that you did not worship it.

the Creative force is beyond language, beyond time, beyond dimensionality, beyond human ego and sensory perceptions. Any attempt at making it into a thing, a dogma, a set of rules to govern, is an attempt at population control and not at all a way to God.

So my question is this. I would like to know why you think the Christian God is the only way to God. Please speak from personal experience, and quote from the bible as little as possible. I'm not a biblical scholar and do not want to spend my time researching the pre-translated Aramaic and Latin versions to check translational errors.

buddhawarrior wrote:Which is an amazing way to know God, but it does not make the christian "bhagavan" any more correct than the bhagavan of another religion.

Kurieuo » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:13 pm

How does one see the elephant to know which part a religion is touching? I think those who take this analogy seriously are talking from the back end of the elephant if I'm to be frank.

buddhawarrior wrote:Hi callmedave, thank you for your added info.

I hate to beat a dead horse, nor do I mean to offend, so please do not take anything I say personally. But what you have described is called in the Hindu tradition, bakti yoga to a bhagavan. Or roughly translated as devotional practice to a personalized God. Or in Christian language, worshiping Christ.

Which is an amazing way to know God, but it does not make the christian "bhagavan" any more correct than the bhagavan of another religion.

I'm only usig the Hindu vocabulary because there are no real english concept for it. So it's simply easier to borrow words from another culture to express a concept tha is foreign to most people in the west.

Like the analogy of the 3 blind men feeling up an elephant and each insisting that they know he truth about the elephant. One insists it's just like a snake, one insists it's just like a wall, and the last one insists it's a tree trunk. Well, none are right, yet all are right from their perspective. A bhagavan is like the blind man saying "it's like a snake" making the unknown object into something familiar so that an understanding can be had. In science we call that modeling. The model is not the thing itself. But represents what is knowable abou the unknowable. Of course what I've presented is also a model and not the real deal. I do not hold my believes as fixed because I know it does not represent the real thing.

jlay wrote: Kind of like the Dali Lama calling to free Tibet. Buddhism is about elimnating desire. Desire is the source of suffering. Yet why do Buddhist desire things such as Tibetan liberation?
Why does one desire to prove their point on an internet forum> And make exclusive truth claims to say there are no exclusive truth claims.

buddhawarrior wrote:Interesting, is the problem with the elephant analogy that Christians think they know the entirety ofthe elephant and that all others are blind?