Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote: The term 'real hard laws' I quoted from you. God already did, btw. Read the Exodus. "Hear ye oh Isreal..."
Was the law given to Gentiles?? Uh, no. If the law wasn't given to the Gentiles, then how do you say that there is no difference?

Well again I hate to break the news to you, but we are part of Israel AND a part of the promises (see below).. AND we were there at the Exodus according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 10: 1-2,11. Our ancestors were there..

Ephesians 2:11-13 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

And where is Israel today? China, America, Africa?

jlay wrote:Read the entire context. You are saying there is no difference, but clearly at that time there was. It even says so.

No.. I'm not arguing that.. There are differences between Jews and Gentiles, and still today. What I'm talking about is your belief that the commandments and the Jews are now ancient history. That is wrong.. I'm sorry. That is what replacement theology teaches.

you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

Circumcision of the flesh was strictly a sign of being a physical Jew. Not a Gentile. Gentiles were now required to have the circumcision of the heart Romans 2:28-29.. According "to the customs" that could be anyone's guess which could include the "Oral Laws" which are non-biblical. However did God give up on the commandments? Did Paul give up circumcision? No, in Acts 16:3 he circumcised Timothy, he still made vows Acts 18:18, still attended the festivals Acts 20:16, paid the temple sacrifices for 4 men Acts 23-27, etc...

22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

This verse does not say that Gentiles should give up on G-d's commandments.. It says that he decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication... But where is the word "only" here? If you had the word "only" then you might have something here. But you don't... Also in verse 26, it clearly says that Paul went into the temple with these men and offered a sacrifice for each of them... Sacrifices after Christ?

jlay wrote:Some things are very obvious here. First, concerning the Gentiles. They were NOT to fall under the Law, and the distinction is given. 2nd, Paul was accused of teaching,.." all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs."

Again there is nothing said here about throwing the law under the bus here either...

jlay wrote:The confusion is that there are two programs operating. The Jewish program, and the gentile program. If there weren't two programs, then there would have been no need to call Paul as an apostle to the Gentiles. Nor would there be any controversy, because Paul would be encouraging Gentiles to follow the whole law. Also, those speaking obviously saw a distinction as they believed they were to keep the law, as should Paul. In other words it was necessary, but for the gentiles they need only abstain from certain meat and fornication. Now how do you reconcile that? It is obvious these Jews speaking at this time, saw that there was one standard for Jews and another for gentiles regarding the OT law.

No.. This is where we disagree. There are not two different programs here.. Paul never spoke out flat against G-d's commandments.. He spoke about turning G-d's teachings into legalism, but never about throwing the law in the garbage either. What he did speak about is how to WALK THE LAW according to Christ.

jlay wrote:So, when is the last time you have offered a sacrifice? And if not, why not?

Ask Paul that... When he himself along with those men, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

jlay wrote:And so, you have thrown out certain commands. I can bet you hard money that you, nor any messianic Jew is following the law. They are following am ammended version. According to who? The law has sacrificial requirements for not keeping certain commands. Are you following them?

It depends on what you mean by following the law. Not everything in the commandments are even addressed to all people. Some of the laws are for women, some for men, some for priests, some for lepers, some for the Sanhedrin, some for the temple, etc.. Are you implying that we should morph into all of these? Then the answer is no...

Didn't I ever tell you about bumbles? Bumbles Bounce!!!



//www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbSsQR__bgE

Freedom includes the freedom to follow elements of the Old Law for any good reason including health, worship of God (just not for attempting to earn his favor.) For me, I don't see any need to follow any of the old law for it's own sake or out of any sense of obligation to God for the attempt to incur His favor. Just as Paul said it was a matter of conscience in Corinthians as to whether to eat meat (and this despite the instructions of Acts 15) I have no problem with those, Jewish by heritage of aligning by choice to follow these practices if it brings joy in some form to them. It's just a very thin line though to cross over to the other side into legalism. I respect G-man's choices as well as the choices of others in differing traditions in this direction. It's between them and God as to what their motives are and how they convey the message to others' to avoid that trap. I see myself as under the law of love and as to heritage, my greatest concern is keeping the cornbeef and cabbage on my plate from touching me bangers and mash, don't ye know? Tooraloo, y'all .....

No.. I'm not arguing that.. There are differences between Jews and Gentiles, and still today. What I'm talking about is your belief that the commandments and the Jews are now ancient history. That is wrong.. I'm sorry. That is what replacement theology teaches.

G, I am against replacement theologies such as we find in the RCC, and Calvinism. You are making many mistakes with my position.

If you want to read up on dispensational theology. I would suggest proceeding with caution, because as with any theology there are a lot of varying opinions. Just to make clear, I am not from the Tim Lahaye type.

[url]http://worldview_3.tripod.com/dispensation.html[/url]

Interestingly I would use all the same verses from Ephesians, 1 Cor. etc. as prooftexts for dispensational theology. It realy isn't a matter of that, but how those verses are interpreted. The link will explain a little about a dispensational hermanuetic. I often find that many Messianic movements actually hold to elements of dispensational theology. And in fact they are the ones promoting a type of replacement theology.

Again there is nothing said here about throwing the law under the bus here either...

Ok. ???????

No.. This is where we disagree. There are not two different programs here.. Paul never spoke out flat against G-d's commandments..

Saying there weren't two programs is ignoring the plain contextual reading.

Ask Paul that... When he himself along with those men, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

So are you Gman, yes or no?

It depends on what you mean by following the law. Not everything in the commandments are even addressed to all people. Some of the laws are for women, some for men, some for priests, some for lepers, some for the Sanhedrin, some for the temple, etc.. Are you implying that we should morph into all of these? Then the answer is no...

You know what I mean Gman.

jlay wrote: G, I am against replacement theologies such as we find in the RCC, and Calvinism. You are making many mistakes with my position.

Ok, but what you've written before seems to me that there is no use for the Jew today or the OT patterns for that matter..

jlay wrote:Interestingly I would use all the same verses from Ephesians, 1 Cor. etc. as prooftexts for dispensational theology. It realy isn't a matter of that, but how those verses are interpreted. The link will explain a little about a dispensational hermanuetic. I often find that many Messianic movements actually hold to elements of dispensational theology. And in fact they are the ones promoting a type of replacement theology.

I can assure you that Messianic Jews would have no part of Replacement Theology. They highly condemn it.. Many of the teachers are in fact literal Jews themselves who train Gentiles in Torah.. What I have found actually in the ones I've attended are closer to Dual Covenant Theology..

Messianics are extremely loyal to Jews and the state of Israel. From what I've seen they are some of the greatest front line protectors of Israel who even serve in the IDF. We are servants for Israel and fight (spiritually) for Judah.. Something all Christians should be doing.

jlay wrote:Saying there weren't two programs is ignoring the plain contextual reading.

It's simply not there...

jlay wrote:So are you Gman, yes or no?

Offering sacrifices? Of course not, but one day they will come back according to Ezekiel and the NT prophets. Mostly as a memorial to Christ.

jlay wrote:You know what I mean Gman.

No problem Jlay.. You take care champ..

Canuckster1127 wrote:Freedom includes the freedom to follow elements of the Old Law for any good reason including health, worship of God (just not for attempting to earn his favor.) For me, I don't see any need to follow any of the old law for it's own sake or out of any sense of obligation to God for the attempt to incur His favor. Just as Paul said it was a matter of conscience in Corinthians as to whether to eat meat (and this despite the instructions of Acts 15) I have no problem with those, Jewish by heritage of aligning by choice to follow these practices if it brings joy in some form to them. It's just a very thin line though to cross over to the other side into legalism. I respect G-man's choices as well as the choices of others in differing traditions in this direction. It's between them and God as to what their motives are and how they convey the message to others' to avoid that trap. I see myself as under the law of love and as to heritage, my greatest concern is keeping the cornbeef and cabbage on my plate from touching me bangers and mash, don't ye know? Tooraloo, y'all .....

Bart, I think we can all agree that "following the law" has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation comes when we accept Jesus Christ (Yeshua) as our savior. We cannot work for it or try to gain as you say "brownie points" with G-d. I have no clue how G-d is going to judge my works. He could actually in fact burn me into a cinder for it.. I'm willing to admit that I'm taking a risk here and could be wrong. I'm just tired of mainline Christianity however where I'm told to just love, love, love and then give me a shotgun response as to what that entails.. I want to build towards something before I get sick, sick, sick...

But you are right.. By following Torah, we could actually turn it into legalism and then start judging others incorrectly who don't follow it.. Pray that we don't.. What I'm seeking here however is what I think is sanctification or the process of becoming holy. Purifying ourselves before Christ... But it is a walk that must include the Holy Spirit. If not, it will be burned up as false works and we will have wasted our time.. Very risky stuff... But there is so little left in me anyways. I'm willing to take a chance... And well possibly blow it.

Ok, but what you've written before seems to me that there is no use for the Jew today or the OT patterns for that matter..

Paul said there is no difference, now. Paul lays out times past, but now, and in the ages to come. In this dispensation a Jew is saved the exact same way as a Gentile. Faith in Christ. The law contributes nothing. We are in the 'but now.' Eph. 2:13. But now!!! What is the but now Paul is describing? His Gospel, which was Hidden and NOT revealed. (Eph. 3:8,9)
Eph 2:14 "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,"
So how did this happen? Eph 2:15 "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

Jesus' earthly ministry was not about doing away with the law, in fact He amplified it. (Matt. 5) But this message was for Israel, NOT for the Gentiles. When Jesus in His earhtly ministry says He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, I take Him at His word. (Matt. 15:24) When He sent out the disciples (Matt. 10:5)and said do NOT go among the Gentiles. His earthly ministry was for Israel. His earthly ministry was about His earthly Kingdom and the throne of David. It was previewed on the triumphant entry, and the transfiguration.

when people read Paul and the four Gospels and bounce back and forth with no distinctions, they error in how God has divinely laid out His word, and fail to 'rightly divide the word of truth.'
When scripture says that Jesus called a special apostle and revealed to him for a hidden program, I trust what the scripture says. I don't try to mix and match the two.

I can assure you that Messianic Jews would have no part of Replacement Theology. They highly condemn it.. Many of the teachers are in fact literal Jews themselves who train Gentiles in Torah.. What I have found actually in the ones I've attended are closer to Dual Covenant Theology..

Dual covenant? You mean what you are criticising me for? There was a distinction. Today there is none. You do understand what 'dual' means? Dual covenant holds that there is still a distinction today, and is popular among Messianics.

As far as the OT, it is God breathed scripture and is useful. Paul told Timothy that the scriptures are able to make you wise to salvation. They show us the fall of man, the righteous standard of God's law, the holiness of God, and how all have sinned and need a Savior. Those under the law and those not.

The 'state' of Israel today is not the covenant people. That is a man made government. They may have the blood line, but they are rejectors of the promise. What's going on in Israel is political. Jesus, Paul and the others didn't fight for it then. In fact Jesus predicted it's destruction. I do believe God will restore an earthly Kingdom, but I am very suspicious that it has anything to do with what Hagee, Perry Stone, and many others say is happening in Israel today.

It's simply not there...

Then all I can say is you are being willfully ignorant. All the zeal you have doesn't change the plain reading of the text. Then you even mention dual covenant Messianics.

Offering sacrifices? Of course not, but one day they will come back according to Ezekiel and the NT prophets. Mostly as a memorial to Christ.

Of course not? Why not? Aren't you following the Torah? Please explain why?
FWIW, I think there is a very good chance that in 'times to come' when the earthly Kingdom is set up that earthly sacrifices and offerings will commence. But it has NOTHING to do with the dispensation of the Gospel of Grace given to Paul and what is in operation today.

http://paulsthepattern.wordpress.com/20 ... sion-pt-1/

jlay wrote: Paul said there is no difference, now. Paul lays out times past, but now, and in the ages to come. In this dispensation a Jew is saved the exact same way as a Gentile. Faith in Christ. The law contributes nothing. We are in the 'but now.' Eph. 2:13. But now!!! What is the but now Paul is describing? His Gospel, which was Hidden and NOT revealed. (Eph. 3:8,9)

It doesn't say that the Gospel was hidden, it says that it was the riches of Christ which was hidden. Which could mean anything.. But let's just say that you are right, let's say that the Gospel was hidden.. So what? It doesn't mean that G-d's laws are now devoid either.. It's just that they weren't fully understood or revealed until the light of Christ..

jlay wrote:Eph 2:14 "For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,"

Yes both Jews and gentiles are one under Christ. There are no barriers now, but they are still either a Jew or Gentile just like we still have either a male or female in the body of Christ.

jlay wrote:So how did this happen? Eph 2:15 "by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,

What? Which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances? More like the ordinances of Rabbinical legalism but not G-d's laws themselves.. The key word here is "contained" not the entire law itself..

jlay wrote:Jesus' earthly ministry was not about doing away with the law, in fact He amplified it. (Matt. 5) But this message was for Israel, NOT for the Gentiles. When Jesus in His earhtly ministry says He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of Israel, I take Him at His word. (Matt. 15:24) When He sent out the disciples (Matt. 10:5)and said do NOT go among the Gentiles. His earthly ministry was for Israel. His earthly ministry was about His earthly Kingdom and the throne of David. It was previewed on the triumphant entry, and the transfiguration.

Correct, Jesus's ministry was for Israel... But I have already explained to you that we are part of Israel too Ephesians 2:11-13, Ephesians 2:19, Ephesians 3:6. We were suppose to be fellow citizens WITH Jews in Israel. Not replacing, not destroying, co-heirs. What doe this mean? Anyone who hears Christ's voice and takes Him as Lord is a part of Israel. Anyone..

jlay wrote:when people read Paul and the four Gospels and bounce back and forth with no distinctions, they error in how God has divinely laid out His word, and fail to 'rightly divide the word of truth.'
When scripture says that Jesus called a special apostle and revealed to him for a hidden program, I trust what the scripture says. I don't try to mix and match the two.

Again, you could argue hidden... But not destroyed...

jlay wrote:Dual covenant? You mean what you are criticising me for? There was a distinction. Today there is none.

I have no clue what you are talking about here... Criticizing you for what?

jlay wrote:You do understand what 'dual' means? Dual covenant holds that there is still a distinction today, and is popular among Messianics.

No.. Dual Covenant means that there are two covenants.. One for Jews and one for Christians where they can be saved.. In other words no need for Christ's death.. It is a wrong teaching..

jlay wrote:As far as the OT, it is God breathed scripture and is useful. Paul told Timothy that the scriptures are able to make you wise to salvation. They show us the fall of man, the righteous standard of God's law, the holiness of God, and how all have sinned and need a Savior. Those under the law and those not.

Yes it appears you are getting it now.. But we don't follow or put ourselves under the the law to attain salvation..

jlay wrote:The 'state' of Israel today is not the covenant people. That is a man made government. They may have the blood line, but they are rejectors of the promise.

They have rejected Christ, true, but they have not stumbled beyond recovery... Paul says "Not at all"...

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they (the Jews) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

They are still loved on the account of the patriarchs even though they don't like us.. Why? Becuase God’s gifts and his calls are irrevocable...

Romans 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they (The Jews) are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they (Jews) are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they (Jews) too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

jlay wrote:What's going on in Israel is political. Jesus, Paul and the others didn't fight for it then. In fact Jesus predicted it's destruction. I do believe God will restore an earthly Kingdom, but I am very suspicious that it has anything to do with what Hagee, Perry Stone, and many others say is happening in Israel today.

Well if you think G-d is through with Israel, read some of the "everlasting" covenants He made with his children sometime, Jeremiah 31:35-37, Joshua 14:9, 1 Chronicles 23:25, 1 Chronicles 16:15-18, Genesis 17:7-8.

jlay wrote:Then all I can say is you are being willfully ignorant.

So we are resorting to ad hominem attacks now? Relax Jlay... It's not the end of the world..

jlay wrote:All the zeal you have doesn't change the plain reading of the text. Then you even mention dual covenant Messianics.

I don't understand what you are talking about... I mentioned the dual covenants.. So? I didn't say that they all believe that.. As an organization they refuse it..

jlay wrote:Of course not? Why not? Aren't you following the Torah? Please explain why?

What, animal sacrifices? Because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins Hebrews 10:4. According to scripture it will come back however.. Someday in the future when the temple comes back.

jlay wrote:FWIW, I think there is a very good chance that in 'times to come' when the earthly Kingdom is set up that earthly sacrifices and offerings will commence. But it has NOTHING to do with the dispensation of the Gospel of Grace given to Paul and what is in operation today.

http://paulsthepattern.wordpress.com/20 ... sion-pt-1/

True, but sometime in the future it will come back in honor of Christ.. Therefore we need to still honor Torah.. So don't be surprised..

It doesn't say that the Gospel was hidden, it says that it was the riches of Christ which was hidden. Which could mean anything.. But let's just say that you are right, let's say that the Gospel was hidden.. So what? It doesn't mean that G-d's laws are now devoid either.. It's just that they weren't fully understood or revealed until the light of Christ..

It absolutely says that Paul's gospel was hidden.

Ephesians 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph. 3:3,4,9,11
Col. 1:26, Col. 4:3
"Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him— 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen." (Romans 16:25-26)
Paul is specific in saying, "my gospel." According to what? The mystery, hidden, but now revealed. Mystery doesn't mean some mystic thing, but simply means secret or concealed.

Also important in the mystery,..."I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25)

What? Which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances? More like the ordinances of Rabbinical legalism but not G-d's laws themselves.. The key word here is "contained" not the entire law itself..

That's certainly an interesting interpretation. It says, THE LAW of the commandments. Are you saying that there was no difference in Jew and Gentile in times past? And that it was Rabbinical legalism?

No.. Dual Covenant means that there are two covenants.. One for Jews and one for Christians where they can be saved.. In other words no need for Christ's death.. It is a wrong teaching..

I agree, it is a wrong teaching today. There is one effective gospel today. The gospel of grace. However, in Paul's time, the early church decided that Paul would go to the Gentiles, and Peter would continue to the Jews.

They have rejected Christ, true, but they have not stumbled beyond recovery... Paul says "Not at all"...

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they (the Jews) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

That is all good and well, but has NOTHING to do with the political state of Israel today. For someone who says there is no difference, you sure are saying there is a difference, and that the man made political state of Israel today deserves "special" distinction.

Well if you think G-d is through with Israel, read some of the "everlasting" covenants He made with his children sometime,

I don't think God is through with Israel. In fact, I am not beyond thinking that God will work his providence into the political state of "Israel." That doesn't mean I think that the political state of Israel is the theocratic people of Israel.

So we are resorting to ad hominem attacks now? Relax Jlay... It's not the end of the world..

G, I'm being candid. I think you are ignoring the plain reading of the text to hold on to some movement. You've even implied that one is more 'loving' of God if he engages in reviving OT practices. I think there is great value in understanding the festivals, sacrifices from the OT, as they are all types. Unfortunately, when one speaks against these kinds of Messianic groups, it appears that one is impuning Israel and the OT. This couldn't be further from the truth. I am not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

What, animal sacrifices? Because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins Hebrews 10:4. According to scripture it will come back however.. Someday in the future when the temple comes back.

Think about what you just said. It is impossible. Yet, someday it will come back. That is a contradiction. Again, you are only following an ammended version based on what works for you.

True, but sometime in the future it will come back in honor of Christ..

Future being the operative word. Israel equals God's earthly Kingdom. Heaven equals the church the body of Christ. (gentiles)
In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the EARTH.

jlay wrote: It absolutely says that Paul's gospel was hidden.

Ephesians 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel,
Eph. 3:3,4,9,11
Col. 1:26, Col. 4:3
"Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him— 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen." (Romans 16:25-26)
Paul is specific in saying, "my gospel." According to what? The mystery, hidden, but now revealed. Mystery doesn't mean some mystic thing, but simply means secret or concealed.

Again this has nothing to do about canceling the law... You can hide it, ship it to China, bury it in the sand, or launch it on a space rocket to the moon.. Christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it as you surmise...

Matthew 5:17-18 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

jlay wrote:Also important in the mystery,..."I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in." (Romans 11:25)

Yes a blindness, not a destroying of the law however...

jlay wrote:That's certainly an interesting interpretation. It says, THE LAW of the commandments. Are you saying that there was no difference in Jew and Gentile in times past? And that it was Rabbinical legalism?

No it says the "ordinances" of the law of commandments... Not the law itself. And no there were differences between Jews and Gentiles. How? their roles were different...

jlay wrote:That is all good and well, but has NOTHING to do with the political state of Israel today. For someone who says there is no difference, you sure are saying there is a difference, and that the man made political state of Israel today deserves "special" distinction.

G-d has nothing to do with the formation of Israel today? Well your wrong... Everyone knows that Israel has been setup by G-d.. As it has always been done in the past.. Israel will triumph whether you like it or not.

jlay wrote:I don't think God is through with Israel. In fact, I am not beyond thinking that God will work his providence into the political state of "Israel." That doesn't mean I think that the political state of Israel is the theocratic people of Israel.

It doesn't matter if they are making Swiss cheese factory there or a waffle shop. We still have to support it before G-d crowns it for His glory.. America has it's faults too.. Should we abandon America too because we don't agree with it politically?

jlay wrote:G, I'm being candid. I think you are ignoring the plain reading of the text to hold on to some movement. You've even implied that one is more 'loving' of God if he engages in reviving OT practices. I think there is great value in understanding the festivals, sacrifices from the OT, as they are all types. Unfortunately, when one speaks against these kinds of Messianic groups, it appears that one is impuning Israel and the OT. This couldn't be further from the truth. I am not throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

No I never said that G-d is going to love you more if you engage in OT practices... The Bible says that however 1 John 5:3, John 14:15.

jlay wrote:Think about what you just said. It is impossible. Yet, someday it will come back. That is a contradiction. Again, you are only following an ammended version based on what works for you.

Again I have absolutely no clue what you are taking about.. Let's rephrase this... Animal sacrifices could never take away the sins of a person in OT times or NT times... But that isn't G-d's fault.. It was the way they were interpreting G-d's laws..

jlay wrote:Future being the operative word. Israel equals God's earthly Kingdom. Heaven equals the church the body of Christ. (gentiles)
In the beginning God created the HEAVENS and the EARTH.

Well maybe someone could beam them down from space to help out sometime..

Again this has nothing to do about canceling the law... You can hide it, ship it to China, bury it in the sand, or launch it on a space rocket to the moon.. Christ came to fulfill the law not destroy it as you surmise...

Christ did fufill the Law. Praise be to God. The law has it's time, place and people. It serves a valuble and genuine function.

Israel will triumph whether you like it or not.

God will triumph. If God works his providence through that mess over in that land, then I say amen. That doesn't mean that the political state of "Israel" is at all the same as what God established.

We still have to support it before G-d crowns it for His glory

Excuse me? I call poppycock on that. We do not HAVE to support the political manmade state of Israel. In this dispensation there is NO DIFFERENCE.

The Bible says that however 1 John 5:3, John 14:15

And His command was to send YOU (a gentile) Paul to listen to. Not for you to pretend you are a covenant Jew, which is exactly what you are doing.

Again I have absolutely no clue what you are taking about.. Let's rephrase this... Animal sacrifices could never take away the sins of a person in OT times or NT times... But that isn't G-d's fault.. It was the way they were interpreting G-d's laws..

Interpreting?? The OT is clear and specific on sacrifices, and has nothing to do with interpretation.

jlay wrote: God will triumph. If God works his providence through that mess over in that land, then I say amen. That doesn't mean that the political state of "Israel" is at all the same as what God established.

Then you must really have your blinders on... Has Israel ever been 100% for G-d? Have you ever been 100% for G-d?

jlay wrote:Excuse me? I call poppycock on that. We do not HAVE to support the political manmade state of Israel. In this dispensation there is NO DIFFERENCE.

We have a mandate to protect Jews (our spiritual brothers) who now reside in state of Israel.. That is what we Christians should have been doing since we were formed, being grafted into a "Jewish" olive tree. Now the truth is out, I will leave you with a warning...

Romans 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches (Jews). If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

jlay wrote:And His command was to send YOU (a gentile) Paul to listen to. Not for you to pretend you are a covenant Jew, which is exactly what you are doing.

I never said I was a Jew.. Only that we as Gentiles should be obeying Torah side by side "with" Jews for the restoration of Israel. Echad.

jlay wrote:Interpreting?? The OT is clear and specific on sacrifices, and has nothing to do with interpretation.

Well apparently the believers in the OT missed out on that...

Romans 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches (Jews). If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

G=man, you might want to take a closer look at this passage and the surrounding context before citing it as in indication of any form of pre-eminence for the Jews. Paul here is telling the gentiles to take care in their attitudes so that they will not end up like the Jews who were the children of the promise but failed collectively to enter into the full promise because they got caught up on two things that kept them from seeing and accepting Christ for who He was:

1. The Law - This was the core issue for those in the Judiazing faction who believed that the Law was to continue in full effect past Christ, in effect denying Christ's fulfillment of the law and the issuance of grace to live by moving forward.

2. The sense of special called apart status in God's plan. The Jews were a chosen people and a people of a promise (which is what Rom 9 - 11 is speaking of when it speaks of election ... namely the election of Jews as a nation by God's choice to be the people from whom Jesus would come.) From the very beginning of the Abrahamic covenent the purpose of the separate and set apart status before God was not to be an eternal one, but to culminate with the coming of the Messiah and then move to a calling of all nations, but collectively (with individual exceptions of course) overall the Jews could not get past those two things and because of it, God is warning the Gentiles through Paul, that just as the Jews were not spared, so too they will not be spared if they leave the vine into which they were grafted in, namely Christ.

When understood in that context, I rather think it may speak against some of what you're saying.

Romans 11:18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches (Jews). If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

G,
As Bart pointed out, this has nothing to do with what I am talking about. Do I consider myself superior to the Jews, no. Nor do I consider them superior to me. You consider the modern political state of Israel to be the same thing as God's Israel. The are most definately not the same. You consider that man made political state superior and deserving of some special recognition. God's promises a remnant, but you insist that the political state of Israel is the remant, which is contradictory. There is nothing in the plain reading of Romans 11 (or any other scripture) saying we have a mandate to support the 21st century political state of Israel.

Well apparently the believers in the OT missed out on that...

Just what isn't clear G? When the OT list the laws, sacrifices and offerings, just what isn't clear as to what they were to follow? Please be specific.

I never said I was a Jew.. Only that we as Gentiles should be obeying Torah side by side "with" Jews for the restoration of Israel.

The scriptures don't say that. They say Israel (The collective theocracy established by God) is cut off, until the number of the Gentiles is complete. Paul was given as the apostle for this dispensation. Not Peter, nor the eleven. Paul was hand picked by Christ to be our apostle with a special commission. He was given new revelation, and a new program under which God is operating in the earth at this time. The Gospel of grace. God's promises to His earthly covenant people will not fail. They have merely been interupted so a hidden program could be put into effect, for a time.

Saying we should be obeying the Torah is the result of failing to rightly divide the word of truth, and to heed the reality that Jesus gave us Paul.

Canuckster1127 wrote:
G=man, you might want to take a closer look at this passage and the surrounding context before citing it as in indication of any form of pre-eminence for the Jews. Paul here is telling the gentiles to take care in their attitudes so that they will not end up like the Jews who were the children of the promise but failed collectively to enter into the full promise because they got caught up on two things that kept them from seeing and accepting Christ for who He was:

1. The Law - This was the core issue for those in the Judiazing faction who believed that the Law was to continue in full effect past Christ, in effect denying Christ's fulfillment of the law and the issuance of grace to live by moving forward.

2. The sense of special called apart status in God's plan. The Jews were a chosen people and a people of a promise (which is what Rom 9 - 11 is speaking of when it speaks of election ... namely the election of Jews as a nation by God's choice to be the people from whom Jesus would come.) From the very beginning of the Abrahamic covenent the purpose of the separate and set apart status before God was not to be an eternal one, but to culminate with the coming of the Messiah and then move to a calling of all nations, but collectively (with individual exceptions of course) overall the Jews could not get past those two things and because of it, God is warning the Gentiles through Paul, that just as the Jews were not spared, so too they will not be spared if they leave the vine into which they were grafted in, namely Christ.

When understood in that context, I rather think it may speak against some of what you're saying.

Bart I respect your opinion, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. While I do agree that we have to graft into a tree whose roots are in Christ's, I don't necessarily agree that the Jews dropped the ball beyond recovery as Romans 11:1-2,11 clearly states. And I would say that Christians can learn a lot from Jews and their ways.. Also Romans 11:23 states that they (the Jews) will also become grafted in when they stop persisting in unbelief. So we will inherit some Jewishness there into this tree.. When? We don't know... Scripture says "until the fullness of the gentiles comes in" Romans 11:25-26. Therefore I would throw caution to the wind before we just write them off or throw Israel under the bus... At least I'm not willing to take that chance..

Furthermore I would even argue that since Christians are a part of Israel, we too have also inherited a blindness... A blindness perhaps in Torah? It's not clear.. The NT teachings are very ambiguous as to what laws stand or don't stand. Sure they have been fulfilled, sure not all of them apply to us today.. But to wave the magical "grace" wand and say that it doesn't apply to us anymore is not exactly a wise thing to do either IMO. But that is just my opinion too.. We may know some things about G-d's plan, but may also have the timing off..