Evidence for God from Science

Ivellious wrote:Well, I'll give you credit, that answers my question. It's still baffling to me how one could hold someone responsible for not taking advantage of an opportunity not given to them. A more apt example: A young boy is raised in seclusion by Buddhist monks. Rarely leaves his monastery and dies at a fairly young age from cancer. Or, again, everyone who wasn't a prophet prior to Jesus's life. And even then, the millions (possibly billions) of people during and after Jesus's life who lived outside the middle east and never heard of Jesus.

Neo covered this pretty well. There's just a little I want to add about those who haven't gotten the chance to accept Jesus. Scripture's pretty clear that for those before the time of His first coming, it was still all about faith. He wouldn't have held it against them for what they couldn't know, so any who believed in G-d and walked with Him were saved. For the Gentiles who never got the chance to know the G-d of Israel, Paul tells us in Romans (as FL has mentioned) that "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." This includes the Eastern monks, the Native Americans, everyone. So G-d's existence, oneness, and nature are knowable through the world itself, and through faith in Him one can come to know Him better. As others have said, when one has faith, G-d finds a way to bring that person close to Him. He understands our circumstances, and if one doesn't have a way to know of Scripture, or Christ, or other things such as that before they die, He won't count it against them. And then later on in Romans 3 Paul says that, "when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or defending them.." So G-d will guide those Gentiles who come to faith in the One True G-d through their conscience when they don't have access to His Word that contains His will.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:It seems to me that those that don't believe in Christ will be judged on their deeds, as those who do will be saved by their faith.

You are correct, but do you understand the implication of what you have posted?

There are two resurrections, one for the saved, where they will be rewarded for their acts performed in the faith; and one for the unsaved, where they will be judged according to their acts. Those without a saving faith have ''good deeds'' that are as filthy rags in the sight of God (Isa 64:6). Such good deeds are worthless, absolutely worthless.

Also, please read & study neo-x's post.

FL

You interpretation and understanding of this is not like mine, but to each their own my friend
You seem to accept that a ''"good and just person" who, for whatever reason, has not accepted the gospel of Christ before he dies, will be damned because all of his good works done out of love and compassion will mean nothing.
I feel that Jesus' parables of the goats and sheep goes against this view.
Nevertheless I respect your view point and interpretation.

PaulSacramento wrote: You interpretation and understanding of this is not like mine, but to each their own my friend
You seem to accept that a ''"good and just person" who, for whatever reason, has not accepted the gospel of Christ before he dies, will be damned because all of his good works done out of love and compassion will mean nothing.
I feel that Jesus' parables of the goats and sheep goes against this view.
Nevertheless I respect your view point and interpretation.

The sheep & goat parable is irrelevant here. Moreover, there is no ''to each his own'' in the plain reading of the Bible. You simply do not understand what you are speaking of, as I and others here have attempted to show you from the Bible itself.

I understand that pride is powerful and that someone can't just say, ''OOPS! I was wrong!'' So, please stop promoting your ''second chance'' ideas until you've looked into what the Bible has to say about the narrow road that leads to salvation, which few people find.

FL

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: You interpretation and understanding of this is not like mine, but to each their own my friend
You seem to accept that a ''"good and just person" who, for whatever reason, has not accepted the gospel of Christ before he dies, will be damned because all of his good works done out of love and compassion will mean nothing.
I feel that Jesus' parables of the goats and sheep goes against this view.
Nevertheless I respect your view point and interpretation.

The sheep & goat parable is irrelevant here. Moreover, there is no ''to each his own'' in the plain reading of the Bible. You simply do not understand what you are speaking of, as I and others here have attempted to show you from the Bible itself.

I understand that pride is powerful and that someone can't just say, ''OOPS! I was wrong!'' So, please stop promoting your ''second chance'' ideas until you've looked into what the Bible has to say about the narrow road that leads to salvation, which few people find.

FL

Don't care much for your tone dude, got be honest.
I am not asking you are anyone to agree with me, simply stating my opinion on the matter.
And after close to 4 years into my Bach in theology I think I know A BIT about the bible and its MANY interpretations.
Pride? on MY part? after I stated that the view is MINE and that I am open to being wrong and stated openly why I hope I am not and you call that pride?
Maybe we also have a different interpretation of "pride" too, eh?
By the way, I am NOT promoting any " second chance" idea, simply HOPING that there is one for those that have been "diverted" from God, since I HOPE that all come to God so that ALL may know His Love.
So shoot me.

I think the verse from John 5 was referring more to the people that had already passed on before Jesus was on this earth, the ones that didn't have a chance to hear His Good News because He wasn't preaching it yet. Once He began His preaching and teaching, from then on out, most people have had the opportunity, one way or the other, to hear Gods word. Yes, there are some, like the Aboriginal peoples that have never even seen a white man, much less had someone preach to them. And I think, they, like little children, will have a special place with God.

PaulSacramento wrote:

You seem to accept that a ''"good and just person" who, for whatever reason, has not accepted the gospel of Christ before he dies, will be damned because all of his good works done out of love and compassion will mean nothing.

Paul, take a good look at what you said here. What makes a "good and just person"? Something in himself? Or, are we declared "just" by believing on Christ. Christ is just, and only through his work, are we justified before God. Think about it. You my friend, just agreed with a works based salvation.

PaulSacramento wrote:n't care much for your tone dude, got be honest.

I'm using a laconic tone. Strictly business.

PaulSacramento wrote:I am not asking you are anyone to agree with me, simply stating my opinion on the matter.
And after close to 4 years into my Bach in theology I think I know A BIT about the bible and its MANY interpretations.

Never mind the interpretations. Look at what the Bible clearly says. The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It cannot say one thing and then affirm its complete opposite.

PaulSacramento wrote:Pride? on MY part? after I stated that the view is MINE and that I am open to being wrong and stated openly why I hope I am not and you call that pride?

Pride is a very powerful foe for all of us. If you truly believe the Bible gives a second chance after death, find the scriptures that cross-reference this idea and I'll take a look at them.

PaulSacramento wrote:Maybe we also have a different interpretation of "pride" too, eh?

Use the dictionary definition if in doubt.

PaulSacramento wrote:By the way, I am NOT promoting any " second chance" idea, simply HOPING that there is one for those that have been "diverted" from God, since I HOPE that all come to God so that ALL may know His Love.

Your hope is vain. As I've said before, stop promoting this idea or you may unwittingly participate in someone's damnation.

Now...I have to go away for the weekend...so you'll have time to cool off. Have a beer!

FL

RickD wrote:PaulSacramento wrote:

You seem to accept that a ''"good and just person" who, for whatever reason, has not accepted the gospel of Christ before he dies, will be damned because all of his good works done out of love and compassion will mean nothing.

Paul, take a good look at what you said here. What makes a "good and just person"? Something in himself? Or, are we declared "just" by believing on Christ. Christ is just, and only through his work, are we justified before God. Think about it. You my friend, just agreed with a works based salvation.

Works based salvation? for those that have never known Christ? Perhaps I agree with that, BUT more like "chance for salvation based on good works".
All I am saying is that those that do "good works" and have never had a chance to Know God through Christ, will have a chance for salvation.
This isn't a question of "don't worry, you don't have to come to Christ", this is about all those that DON'T have that chance, those that have only been exposed to a "heretical" view of Christ and have been turned away from Christ because of their experience with Christians, those that have been born in an area to which the Gospel has been "blocked", etc.
Perhaps it's just me because I KNOW of people like that, people that because of "bad christians" have been turned off from Christ, people that have no true knowledge of his love BUT have been exposed to all his "hate" ( their words).
I know that "no one is good", but it is that very understanding of "no one is good" that leads me to conclude that GOD, who KNOWS ALL, knows that not all WILL be able to know is love in their lifetime.

Paul, I think I understand what you're saying. I just read an article by William Craig, that talked about this subject. And, it really made sense to me. The way you stated this:

You seem to accept that a ''"good and just person" who, for whatever reason, has not accepted the gospel of Christ before he dies, will be damned because all of his good works done out of love and compassion will mean nothing.

seemed like you were saying that someone who heard the gospel, and rejected Christ, could still gain salvation by his good works. The way you wrote that, led me to believe that was what you were saying. Now, I think I know what you were saying, and correct me if I'm not accurate. Those that for whatever reason, have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ, or have never even heard of Christ, could still have a possibility for salvation. Those people could believe in God through nature, and their conscience. God would know(because He is all-knowing) which people would choose to accept the gospel, if they ever heard it. God may have, because He knows best, put people in their locations, and times in history, to let the most possible people be able to hear, and freely choose to accept Christ.
I don't know what I'm saying, is absolutely true, but if there's a possibility that it's true, then it would satisfy the claim that God would doom to hell, those that never heard the gospel.

Rick,
If someone was to KNOW Christ ( THE Christ, His Love and Grace and not a "shadow" of Christ that has been perverted by man) and rejects Christ, that person has blasphemied against the HS and for him/her there is no salvation.
Only by the HS cane we say AND MEAN that Christ is Lord and our salvation and to KNOW that and deny it, is blasphemy with no escape.
BUT not ALL people will know the TRUE Christ and by no fault of their own ( lets not forget that we humans are fallen and weak and so very succeptiable to failure), many will be "stumbled" by false teachings of "Christians" ( the bible warns of this) and some will be "harmed and hurt" by Christians ( we see this going on right now).
I firmly believe that those that do not find Christ by no fault of their own, will have a second chance and will judged by their "good deeds" ( since their faith was contaminated).
I may be wrong of course BUT I hope not.
Having seen the damage that can be done by "antichrist" within Our Church, and seen and talked to those that have "fallen away" because of it, I truly HOPE that is the case.

PaulSacramento wrote:Works based salvation? for those that have never known Christ? Perhaps I agree with that, BUT more like "chance for salvation based on good works".
All I am saying is that those that do "good works" and have never had a chance to Know God through Christ, will have a chance for salvation.
This isn't a question of "don't worry, you don't have to come to Christ", this is about all those that DON'T have that chance, those that have only been exposed to a "heretical" view of Christ and have been turned away from Christ because of their experience with Christians, those that have been born in an area to which the Gospel has been "blocked", etc.
Perhaps it's just me because I KNOW of people like that, people that because of "bad christians" have been turned off from Christ, people that have no true knowledge of his love BUT have been exposed to all his "hate" ( their words).
I know that "no one is good", but it is that very understanding of "no one is good" that leads me to conclude that GOD, who KNOWS ALL, knows that not all WILL be able to know is love in their lifetime.

All this does is promote the thinking ( and practice ) that it's better to leave a person in ignorance to Christ than to bring Christ to him/her. Scary/sad thinking really from one who is apparently on their way to teaching these things to a congregation if not already doing so.

PaulSacramento wrote:And after close to 4 years into my Bach in theology I think I know A BIT about the bible and its MANY interpretations.

Antichrist comes in many forms. A wolf in sheeps clothing. Anyone that accepts this thinking... ( 1 John 2:22 ) that one can be saved or that one should/can hope that salvation comes apart from Christ is playing into the hands of antichrist.

Antichrist comes in many forms. A wolf in sheeps clothing. Anyone that accepts this thinking... ( 1 John 2:22 ) that one can be saved or that one should/can hope that salvation comes apart from Christ is playing into the hands of antichrist.

Very true and luckily no one here is denying that Jesus is the Christ and that salvation COMES from Him.
There is only salvation in Christ and it is only in HIS name that we are saved.
No one is denying that at all.
No one is also saying that THEY are speaking for Christ or that they KNOW WHO Christ will save and who he will condem, are they?
I certainly hope that no one here is saying they KNOW WHO Christ will choose.
What I am saying is that I HOPE that Christ, who knows what is in our hearts, will judge those that have NOT been able to know him truly, with his love, the love for us that Christ die for us all.
I most certainly will say that "THAT person will not be saved" or "That person will", can you say that?
As Our Lord said, Many will call him "lord, Lord" and He will not know them.
It goes to thinking that many will be there that we MAY not have thought to see there.

How many have been "lost" to Us because of what OTHER christians have done to them? How many have died blinded by the hate put in their heart in "the name of God" ?
Are they condemned?
I would hope not.

All this does is promote the thinking ( and practice ) that it's better to leave a person in ignorance to Christ than to bring Christ to him/her. Scary/sad thinking really from one who is apparently on their way to teaching these things to a congregation if not already doing so.

Interesting that you see it that way.
It is perhaps better to leave a person "ignorant of Christ" than to promote or expose them to a "version" of Christ that drives them away.
A version of Christ that advocates hate, intolerance, self-righteousness, superiority and an exculsivness that causes families to not even speaking to each other and that causes love to wither and die.
Yes, perhaps better to NOT know THAT Christ and to die in IGNORANCE of THAT Christ.
And if you think THAT Christ is NOT being preached then I can assure you that is NOT the case.
And I know because I fight against that view of Christ almost everyday.
As do others.
So, perhaps, I do have a different view of things.

In short, according to PaulSacramento, it is better to leave people in ignorance of Christ in order that HOPEFULLY they can be saved apart from belief in Christ/God.

That, of course, is another gospel.

Matthew 24:14 wrote:And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

These are Christ's words...but lets HOPE they are not true.
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BavarianWheels wrote:In short, according to PaulSacramento, it is better to leave people in ignorance of Christ in order that HOPEFULLY they can be saved apart from belief in Christ/God.

That, of course, is another gospel.

Matthew 24:14 wrote:And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

These are Christ's words...but lets HOPE they are not true.
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I'm sorry, I really can't make it any more clear what I feel.
Of course you are free to disagree with me in my hope that God takes into account that Man has caused many to stumble in "God's name".
I hope you are wrong of course.

I have derailed this thread long enough and for that, I apologize to the thread starter.