Several questions concerning the fall and evil

[MAGSolo]

I think this is exactly the type of world you would see if there is a God who was rejected by his own creation, a creation that said I can do it my own way, who said I don't need God.

God said fine have it your way, if you don't need me I shall remove my presence and left us to our own devices, this would be exactly the sort of world I would expect from sinfull, selfish creatures who were left to rule the world and your picture characterises exactly what I would expect in a world full of hate and selfish desires.

But because God loved us so much he gave us a way out, he came here to experience our pain and suffering and was flogged, beaten, spat on and nailed to a cross and rose from the dead so you might have the chance at redemption, to enter into eternity with our creator.

He paid the wages of your sin with his death, so that we may be washed clean.
Romans 6:23

Edit: The only "blind pitiless indifference" is not the universe but our own, we have to stop blaming our iniquities on everything else.
We have the power to change things, but we do not.
Why do you expect God to step in when we have the power and resources to change this awfull tradgedy?
This is not the world God created, this is the world we created for ourselves.

Why would I expect God to step in and prevent innocent people from suffering? Is that really what you are asking me. Why would I expect God to step in and prevent that little child from starving to death in the baking sun and have its bones picked by vultures? Why would I expect God to step in and prevent millions of Jews from being gassed to death? Why would I expect God to step in and prevent millions of people from living their entire lives as slaves? Why would I expect God to step in and prevent women from being abducted and raped? Why would I expect God to step in a prevent thousands of children from starving to death dailY? Seriously do you people even think about the stuff you say or type sometimes? Because a lot of it is just really unintelligent. Why would I expect an all powerful, good, loving God from preventing suffering and evil? Words cant even describe what a dumb question that is. I honestly cant believe you actually typed that.

You said God didnt create this world, this is the world we created for ourselves. According to you God created us and this is the way he created us so it is the world God created. God had to have known that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree, because he knows everything. So God planted a tree with fruit in a garden told adam and eve not to eat it knowing they would do it anyway and then punished them and cursed the Earth because of it. What kind of God is that? If God could create angels without them being sinful then he could have created humans the same way, but he didnt. This is how he made us (according to you)

[Danieltwotwenty]

Why would I expect God to step in and prevent innocent people from suffering? Is that really what you are asking me. Why would I expect God to step in and prevent that little child from starving to death in the baking sun and have its bones picked by vultures? Why would I expect God to step in and prevent millions of Jews from being gassed to death? Why would I expect God to step in and prevent millions of people from living their entire lives as slaves? Why would I expect God to step in and prevent women from being abducted and raped? Why would I expect God to step in a prevent thousands of children from starving to death dailY?

Everything you listed is evil created by man, we made this mess and we can fix it.

We said we could do it on our own, we bought evil into this world.

I don't know if you are a parent or not but I am, If I always cleaned up after my children everytime they did something wrong how would they ever learn.

Through suffering and hardship we are drawn closer together and in times of darkness we reach out to God for assistance and yes he does hear us and he does act.

This life is not the only life any suffering here is finite and in the whole scheme of things a very small blip in eternity.

Why would I expect an all powerful, good, loving God from preventing suffering and evil? Words cant even describe what a dumb question that is. I honestly cant believe you actually typed that.Seriously do you people even think about the stuff you say or type sometimes? Because a lot of it is just really unintelligent.

There is no need for insults, this will be the last post I write if you are going to throw insults because you don't fully understand a point of view.
Please see above response to this question.

This is how he made us (according to you)

I never said this is how he made us, please do not put words in my mouth. I said quote below

"This is not the world God created, this is the world we created for ourselves."

God made us to have freewill, meaning we could choose right from wrong.
It was our choice to choose wrong.

You said God didnt create this world, this is the world we created for ourselves. According to you God created us and this is the way he created us so it is the world God created. God had to have known that Adam and Eve would eat from the tree, because he knows everything. So God planted a tree with fruit in a garden told adam and eve not to eat it knowing they would do it anyway and then punished them and cursed the Earth because of it. What kind of God is that? If God could create angels without them being sinful then he could have created humans the same way, but he didnt. This is how he made us (according to you)

I view the tree like a chocolate bar, I go to the shops and buy a chocolate bar and put it in the fridge and tell my children when I think you have been good I may give you a piece or two. When I come back later and discover they have disobeyed me and have eaten the whole thing, should I never have bought the chocolate bar, should I never have had children, should I have genetically engineered them to obey my every command taking away their choice altogether?

When I decided to have my first child I knew they would be rude, disobey, get into trouble and do many more terrible things, do you think this should this prevent me having children?

I would like to ask you a personal question and please be honest, what have you done to try to prevent the above listed evil actions you claim that God should do something about?

Dan

[neo-x]

Hi, Magsolo, and thank you for sharing your thoughts,. I will try to respond later as I am pretty short on time here but what you wrote in the last couple of posts reminded me of a saying I read somewhere, you may Google it up but I think it went like

"Sometimes I would like to ask God why he allows poverty, famine and injustice in the world, when He could do something about it...but I'm afraid He may ask me the same question."

[Danieltwotwenty]

Love the quote Neo.

Sums it up pretty good

[Silvertusk]

Hi, Magsolo, and thank you for sharing your thoughts,. I will try to respond later as I am pretty short on time here but what you wrote in the last couple of posts reminded me of a saying I read somewhere, you may Google it up but I think it went like

"Sometimes I would like to ask God why he allows poverty, famine and injustice in the world, when He could do something about it...but I'm afraid He may ask me the same question."

This sums it up pretty well for me as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ymh5PdvS-S0

[PaulSacramento]

You said Jesus Christ. I then asked have you ever seen Jesus Christ?

And I asked you IF my personal opinion would count as proof, well? would it?
You seem to be using the bible to prove, in your view, that God doesn't love Us.
Only right that I use the bible, the very method you are using, to show otherwise, no?

I dont need to use the bible to show that God doesnt love us. The real world around us is evidence enough that he doesnt love us, doesnt care about us, or more likely doesnt even exist

I'm not sure why you have issues with that picture?
I mean, if there is no God and never was and we are simply just another animal life in the great circle of life on this "eat or get eaten" planet, what are your issues with that pic or any pic showing the circle of life? showing "survival of the fittest" ?
The fact that you DO see something "wrong" with that pic means that for some reason, you feel that there is something "not right" about, now you just have to ask yourself, "WHY?"

[MAGSolo]

Everything you listed is evil created by man, we made this mess and we can fix it.

Is that not the state we were allegedly created in? We could not do evil if it we hadnt been created with the capacity to do so.

We said we could do it on our own, we bought evil into this world.

Where exactly did we say we could do it on our own and who is we in the first place? Did the hundreds and thousands of children who die of disease and starvation every year say they could do it on their own? Did the child in the picture I posted about to die in the baking sun say he could do it on his own? Did that child ever say I dont need God, I can do it by myself?

I don't know if you are a parent or not but I am, If I always cleaned up after my children everytime they did something wrong how would they ever learn.

I dont see what point you are trying to make here

Through suffering and hardship we are drawn closer together and in times of darkness we reach out to God for assistance and yes he does hear us and he does act.

If he does hear us and he does act then how is it that children continue to die for lack of food, clean water, medicine and other basic needs. I continue to focus on children because they have not had time to make any decisions concerning acceptance of Jesus/God. If God continually allows them to suffer and die, how can you say he hears us and acts?

This life is not the only life any suffering here is finite and in the whole scheme of things a very small blip in eternity.

Where is your proof of this? Without using the bible, what evidence can you offer that there is an afterlife where all will be made well? What will prevent humans from doing evil in the next life and bringing suffering and death to that one as well?

There is no need for insults, this will be the last post I write if you are going to throw insults because you don't fully understand a point of view.

I apologize, that was an emotional response. I said earlier that I dont feel any moral outrage but I think thats not entirely true. I do get outraged at the idea of a good and powerful God that would allow the suffering and evil that is rampant on this Earth and I think most ideas to defend such an idea are not well thought out and it tends to upset me I think.

I view the tree like a chocolate bar, I go to the shops and buy a chocolate bar and put it in the fridge and tell my children when I think you have been good I may give you a piece or two. When I come back later and discover they have disobeyed me and have eaten the whole thing, should I never have bought the chocolate bar, should I never have had children?

This would be a good argument if we held God to the standard of mere mortals. Obviously you do not know everything and cannot know the future so you could not know that your child would disobey you. God is not supposed to be constrained by time and therefore he is supposed to be all-knowing. If you knew your child would eat the chocolate you told him not to and you knew it would upset you, then yes I would say you should have never bought the chocolate in the first place. If God knew that humans would eventually sin and he knew his punishment would be severe, I say that he should never have created humans. Are you going argue that God didnt know that humans with free will would be prone to sin and commit evil deeds? My bigger issue is that for the punishment for eating the fruit to be so severe, it seems that simply not putting the tree in the garden would have prevented a lot of unnecessary problems. If the punishment for eating the fruit was cursing the Earth, death and suffering for all humanity, and the eventual torture and death of your son (as yourself) then why put the tree in the garden at all? It doesnt make sense. What purpose did the tree serve that it was so essential to have in the garden?

When I decided to have my first child I knew they would be rude, disobey, get into trouble and do many more terrible things, why should this prevent me having children?

If you knew your first child would grow up to be a serial murderer or a serial rapist or a child molester, would you still choose to have that child? I think everyone realizes that their child will occasionally do something they dont approve of but they still expect their child to be a mostly good kid. Going back to your chocolate example, would you ever curse your child with something they would have to endure all their life for eating chocolate you told them not to? Would you view it as a malicious or rebellious act or would you understand that kids sometimes do things they arent supposed to because thats simply what kids do? Would you curse the ground they walk on to bring forth thorns and thistles for all the days of their lives? If you have a daughter would you curse her to bring forth children in pain because she ate chocolate you told her not to? This goes back to my original point of Gods reaction to them eating the fruit being a huge overreaction.

I would like to ask you a personal question and please be honest, what have you done to try to prevent the above listed evil actions you claim that God has done nothing about?

I give money to people who are obviously poor and in need. Not necessarily to every seemingly healthy and able bodied person at every street intersection with a homeless/jobless sign, but when I see people who genuinely look like they are genuinely not very well off, I give to them. I do whatever is within my power to ease whatever suffering I can. Now I want to ask you a question. Look again at that picture of that child I posted and tell me why a God that would allow suffering such as that to occur deserves to be worshiped and praised?

[MAGSolo]

Hi, Magsolo, and thank you for sharing your thoughts,. I will try to respond later as I am pretty short on time here but what you wrote in the last couple of posts reminded me of a saying I read somewhere, you may Google it up but I think it went like

"Sometimes I would like to ask God why he allows poverty, famine and injustice in the world, when He could do something about it...but I'm afraid He may ask me the same question."

I would recite to him a quote that Im personally very fond of: "With great power comes great responsibility."

I would say to him "God, I am one man, and I do what I can, you are the creator of the cosmos and all within it, are you doing everything you can? You who made the entire universe from nothing, can you not make a bit of food for a child literally dying of hunger?" And even if I personally did nothing I would expect God to be held to a much higher standard. I would say "God, do you mean to tell me that you dont do anything about poverty, injustice, and famine because I dont?" That would be like a billionare who never donates to charity excusing it by saying that he doesnt do it because someone who makes 20,000 a year doesnt do it.

[RickD]

MAGSolo, this is a very difficult subject, because most people empathize with children.

While I can't solve the world hunger problem, let me give you something to think about. There is a starvation problem, if there is a God, or God doesn't exist. If we say God doesn't exist, we still have the starvation problem you brought up. But, if there is no God, we have absolutely no ultimate hope, at all. With The existence of the God of the bible, there is a hope that things can work out for our ultimate good.

[MAGSolo]

The problem is that the starvation problem makes sense from a Godless perspective but makes absolutely no sense from a theistic perspective where God is supposedly watching over us, loving us and providing for us, especially when Jesus himself said that our basic necessities would be provided for:

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

So we have an issue of why do children die of hunger on a daily basis when God has said he will provide for us?

[PaulSacramento]

The problem is that the starvation problem makes sense from a Godless perspective but makes absolutely no sense from a theistic perspective where God is supposedly watching over us, loving us and providing for us, especially when Jesus himself said that our basic necessities would be provided for:

Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26 Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27 Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[e]?

28 “And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29 Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31 So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

So we have an issue of why do children die of hunger on a daily basis when God has said he will provide for us?

In tha analogy, does GOd feed them?

[MAGSolo]

I dont undestand your question

[PaulSacramento]

I dont undestand your question

In the analogy presented in the bible, does God ACTUALLY feed the birds and clothe the grass?
Nope, he doesn't.
He provides what the birds and grass need.
Just as God provides what WE need.
What WE do with, is up to us.
That we do NOT NEED to have world hunger and children starving is a horrific fact in the face that we DO have those things.
Of course Christian organizations have always been in there helping and trying to fix the problem.
That is the Christian way.
There is a time to take the word of God in a literal and concrete fashion and a time to understand it for what it is ( A parable, an analogy, a lesson, etc).

We are told to be the caretakers of God's creation ( its stewards if you will) and that means not only taking care of this planet but the people on it.

[MAGSolo]

That still doesnt explain why God "provides" what birds and grass need but doesnt "provide" what starving children need. Still doesnt answer why God allows thousands of children to starve to death every year.

[PaulSacramento]

That still doesnt explain why God "provides" what birds and grass need but doesnt "provide" what starving children need. Still doesnt answer why God allows thousands of children to starve to death every year.

God provides what we need, that we take that away from children is God's fault?
I assume it's God's fault that people make homes on an Earthquake fault?
Or that they live by rivers the routinely flood?
Or that people live in a tornado area?
I mean, at what point do humans STOP blaming God for ALL the thing WE can fix, that WE have screwed up?