Evidence for God from Science

1over137 wrote:
The author is addressing "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

Equal standing with WHO'S faith? the apostles?

RickD wrote:Hana, I understand who the author is addressing, but who is the author talking about, to those he is talking to?

If God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, he can't be talking about believers. Believers will not perish, they have eternal life. He must be talking about unbelievers, who need to come to repentance.

Author is talking about those he is talking to. See http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/2pe3.pdf.
us-ward = Peter + those with faith. Any can equal any of them and all can equal all of them.

You say, "If God is not wanting anyone to perish ..." Sounds like assuming your interpretation.

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:
The author is addressing "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

Equal standing with WHO'S faith? the apostles?

Peter et al's. So seems that apostles.

1over137 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:
The author is addressing "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

Equal standing with WHO'S faith? the apostles?

Peter et al's. So seems that apostles.

So, if they had faith equal to the apostles, God was being patient and wanting them, with as much faith as the apostles ( given to them By Christ), to not perish?

RickD wrote:

I don't know of many Calvinists who like the term double predestination. If I recall from that long thread, Puritan Lad didn't like the term either. I don't know that it has to be that misleading, but if someone is looking to misrepresent Calvinism (not saying you are) then the wording leaves open interpretations that are not, imo, consistent with what most Calvinists believe.

Narnia, I have already agreed that most Calvinists probably believe like you do. But because most believe one way, that doesn't necessarily mean that's what the doctrine teaches.

But as the wikipedia article I linked indicated, the Synod of Dort, Westminster Standards, and Calvin himself all expressed views similar to mine in rejecting equal ultimacy. The section on "double predestination" in this wiki article is helpful-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_ulti ... l_ultimacy

So in one sense, I'd say most Calvinists probably hold to "double predestination"... just not in the way you mean. And I don't know how you could say that "that's what the doctrine teaches" when some of the early statements by Calvinists indicate otherwise. Unless you believe it can be shown that any other Calvinistic view is ultimately incoherent, which of course I'd be interested in reading/debating.

But anyway, the article I linked has what I think is an interesting distinction between "predestined and foreordained."

no Calvinist believes that God is the author of sin and evil.

Are you sure about that?

Well there may be some, but those could legitimately imo be called hyper-calvinists, heretics, etc.

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

1over137 wrote:
The author is addressing "those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ".

Equal standing with WHO'S faith? the apostles?

Peter et al's. So seems that apostles.

So, if they had faith equal to the apostles, God was being patient and wanting them, with as much faith as the apostles ( given to them By Christ), to not perish?

Faith equal and faith of equal standing are probably two different things.
Yes, God was wanting them to not perish.

study on the verse 2 Peter 3:9 is here (at the botton): http://www.ccwonline.org/append1.html

Faith equal and faith of equal standing are probably two different things.
Yes, God was wanting them to not perish.

So the scripture of "by faith we are saved" is NOT applicable here?
If we are saved by faith and their faith was like of the aspostles and given to them, like the apostles, the the righteousness of Christ, why was God concerned about them parrish so much they he delayed the "end of days" ?

study on the verse 2 Peter 3:9 is here (at the botton): http://www.ccwonline.org/append1.html

That link seems to interpret based on some preconceived notion, which is fine of course since we all have them.
That doesn't make that interpretation any more authoritative than any other though.

One notion is that God is awaiting the final number of believers to be "fullfilled" and then the end will come.
God has predetermined a set number of people that will believe and when that number is reached, then it will be the final judgment.
Of course at issue is, again, that God has already decided who is to believe and who is not AND also who is to hold steadfast to said belief and who will falter.
For every passage that may allude to that predetermined view/number, are others that imply that is not the case, hence we have different doctrines.
We will only know for sure in the end of course, up until then we can discuss and debate and all that, just always keep in mind that we do NOT know for sure.

1over137 wrote:

RickD wrote:Hana, I understand who the author is addressing, but who is the author talking about, to those he is talking to?

If God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish, he can't be talking about believers. Believers will not perish, they have eternal life. He must be talking about unbelievers, who need to come to repentance.

Author is talking about those he is talking to. See http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/2pe3.pdf.
us-ward = Peter + those with faith. Any can equal any of them and all can equal all of them.

You say, "If God is not wanting anyone to perish ..." Sounds like assuming your interpretation.

I didn't say "If God is not wanting anyone to perish". The text says that. See vs. 9: 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
He is patient with you(meaning those he is speaking with), not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance(has to mean unbelievers, because the believers there, 1) are already saved, and will not perish, because they are believers, and 2) believers, by nature of being believers, have already come to repentance.

This is showing the patience, and love of God, toward all people.

It ends up being about what defines one as a believer.
If a believer in Christ is someone that says Christ is Lord, which they can only say if the HS is with them, then they are saved AND have repented ( or the HS would not be with them).
Of course even a believer can stumble.

I have often been asked if ONLY believers will be saved and I reply, Yes.
So I get asked what about the rest and I reply: they will be judged based on their righteousness and their deeds in life.
So what is the benefit for a believer? Well, he "escapes" judgment and since one is judged NOT only by ones actions BUT also by how they judge others, it is most certainly best to believe rather than not-believe.
I know that not everyone agrees with this view and I accept that.
Just my opinion based on how I understand certain passages.

Hana wrote:
study on the verse 2 Peter 3:9 is here (at the botton): http://www.ccwonline.org/append1.html

Hana, the author of this link is writing from a Calvinist's perspective. Just keep in mind where the author is coming from.

And so here we go again, the great theological chess game. But it's ALL "Fools Mate!" Unless we perfectly understand anything about those who will not be saved - other than that they will have FOREVER remained in unrepentance and rejection - then we should quit talking about it - certainly should quit intense arguments over it.

How God deals with unbelievers - and more importantly - WHO those unbelievers will be, meaning WHO will NEVER repent and NEVER come to faith in Jesus - ONLY God knows! The very fact that very sincere, heartfelt, spirit-filled believers are immersed in constant theological gun battles over this issue is absolutely wrong, hurtful, non productive and divisive. Let's just talk about what the Great Commission instructs us to do. People are either going to respond to the Gospel or they will not. Let's quit worrying about WHY some will not, and concentrate upon delivering the message to all people AS IF THEY CAN RESPOND AND IN HOPES THEY CAN RESPOND. Because as we can't see the future, can't see men's hearts, there is little point in repeatedly bludgeoning each other over this issue.

Satan probably loves nothing better than a good Calvinist vs. Arminian debate!

Satan probably loves nothing better than a good Calvinist vs. Arminian debate!

Who are you callin Arminian? Dem's fightin words!!

On another note, this forum will be shutting down, because according to Philip, we can't have any debates or discussions, about anything divisive.

On another note, this forum will be shutting down, because according to Philip, we can't have any debates or discussions, about anything divisive.

Come on, Rick - you know what I'm saying. And notice that I clarified the point at which it is disturbing to me ("certainly should quit intense arguments over it") No, Rick, debates can be healthy. But this one so often is not. This subject often starts civil and then quickly degrades. And, admittedly, I'm one of those quite apt to engage in it. But truthfully, it's getting where I don't really see the point - except to defend God's Holy Character (which is no small thing).

But I next to NEVER see a new point made over this. It always comes off like a test of egos battling over who is smarter or more knowledgeable. Even that wouldn't be so bad if it didn't push hot buttons and damage relationships between CHRISTIANS - and extremely disturbing, damage the potential faith of unbelievers. But what really blows my mind is those who assert that GOD prevented and has never even desired belief in some, but yet they will debate apologetics evidences with unbelievers all day long. And so if one believes that one cannot believe before first being "regenerated," please enlighten me as to why they would find apologetics aimed at unbelievers of any value at all? Why were Paul, Barnabus and Peter engaged in it? What would be the point?