1over137 wrote:Furthermore, 1 John 5:1 says: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."
So, if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you know that you are saved, right? I think this is not agsinst election. You know you believe, you know you were elected, or not?
I know am I elect
because I believe, and
all believers are elect. Calvinists, however, believe (necessarily) in a doctrine called the final perseverance of the saints (that's the P in the TULIP), which says that all believers will persevere in faith and good works until the end of their lives. But the fact is that some people do not persevere in faith and good works until the end of their lives (Jesus said as much Himself in Luke 8:13). So what do we do with them? Calvinists say that those people were not
true believers (against Jesus' own words, I would add), and they proved that by not persevering until the end. That means that even though they believed for a time, they were not really elect. So they would deny that
all believers are elect. They would say that all
true believers are elect, and then they would qualify "true" as those who persevere in faith and good works until the end. So the fact that you believe is no guarantee that you are a true believer. You may be deceived and have spurious faith, which you will eventually prove by falling away.
Speaking about Peter's verses: What do you think about 2 Peter 3:15 in connection to 2 Peter 3:9? If 'any' in verse 9 means all then in the light of verse 15 will all be eventually saved?
No, I don't. We are to consider His patience salvation precisely because, in His patience, people are saved. Were God not patient, then none of us would have been saved, because all of us had to come to faith at some point in time! That is
why He is patient, because He doesn't want
anyone to perish. Eventually, though, that patience will run out, and those who still have not believed will, in fact, perish. It will break God's heart, but it will happen all the same.
Now to the faith. I only know that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (John 6:44).
Sure, but who does the Father draw? Look at John's own answer:
- And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. ~John 12:32
So everyone is drawn. The drawing of God is that He testifies to us concerning His Son. We can't believe a testimony that is never given, can we (cf. John 3:33)? So the Cross draws
all men. Whoever, then, believes has eternal life. When Calvinists deny that, they deny the Gospel, because they insist that it is
not true that whoever believes has eternal life. They say that it is whoever believes
and whoever continues in faith and good works until the end. Many, in light of James 2:14, will say that faith isn't enough, that we also have to have works (works produced by faith, of course). So
mere belief isn't enough. You have to have faith that produces works, so John 3:16
really ought to say, "Whoever believes and produces good works and maintains this belief and these good works until the end will be saved." In correcting Jesus, they are saying that what He actually said is incorrect, which is to disbelieve Him, which is to disbelieve the testimony of God, which is to deny the Gospel.
Again, I refer you to passages like John 12:42 and Luke 8:13. There were, are, and will be those who believe and fail to produce the proper fruit of faith, and even those who fall away from that faith. Are they saved? If the Gospel is
whoever believes has eternal life (John 6:47) then the answer is YES. If, though, the Gospel is whoever believes
and produces good works and maintains their faith in Him, then the answer is NO. Flatly, we have two different gospels here. Both cannot be true. One (or possibly both, if there is a third view) is a false gospel.
P.S.: I hope you are not getting sick of speaking with me.
Not in the least. I promise you that. In using the word "sick" I was just playing off of Narnia's own comments. I have been a believer for over twenty years and have been having these discussions for over fifteen. Heck, I've been a member of these boards for I think about ten years (there was a GodAndScience board before this one that I was a part of . . . I was a moderator back then with some others and helped Kurieuo make the shift to the present boards). All that is to say that I've been through these arguments many times, and sometimes it gets tiring saying the same things over and over. But look, that's just part of it. I'm certainly not getting sick of talking to
you.
There are, however, people that I have gotten sick of talking to. I promise you, though, that you are no where near that point. If you want to see a good example of all that, go find the thread "Is Calvinism a Heresy?" That is a LONG thread with VERY long replies essentially between me and Puritan Lad. It was rather ugly (note that my language is rather pointed in that one, but there is a long history going back before that!) . . . so no, we're nowhere near all that.
The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!
