Evidence for God from Science

I think I'm coming to an understanding of your view (and whether I agree or disagree its still fun to "understand"). I've read MacArthur but don't know exactly what his view is, if that is his view than I certainly disagree with it. I have disagreements about what Calvinists (or at least I) actually believe regarding spurious faith and saving faith and all that as well (in fact I tend to think that most are alluding to the same concept with "spurious faith" and "commitment"), but-

Full disclosure from me, I'm getting sick of debating Calvinism (again). The reason being, frankly, that while I'm a Calvinist I would rather focus on grace and faith in Christ with my eyes upon the cross. Maybe there's hope for me yet.

One thing that comes to my mind is "faith like a child". Throughout history there are people who have come to faith in Christ without knowledge of theological systems or without even reading the Bible (obviously so, unless you want to deny that anybody in the Bible was saved). There have been people saved that aren't very bright, indeed there's been people who have been downright stupid (not thinking of anyone in particular). So in my opinion, increased knowledge of the complexity and intricacies of the knowledge should always ultimately bring you back to the simplicity of the Gospel itself. Not to say everything else isn't important, but with the eyes of the church on Christ a lot can be accomplished without agreement on even other very important things.

Sorry if this sounds like a sermon but its something that's been on my mind.

I hear what you are saying and have a lot of sympathy with it, Narnia. The Gospel is simple, but it is simple in the way a microwave is simple. I open the door, stick my two hot dogs in, punch the one minute button, and in one minute, take out my steaming dogs and enjoy. Couldn't be much simpler than that!

But how the heck does a microwave work? I have no idea, and I bet that 1/137 would have to take a long time to explain it to me. Why? Precisely because it is so complicated. In other words, the interface is simple. It's easy to use. But it's a complicated piece of machinery.

Just so with the Gospel. The interface ought to be easy. It ought to be simple trust in Christ. And beyond that, we can have our complicated debates about the complex machinery inside the black box of soteriology. But that debate should never be allowed to complicated the Gospel itself and its simplicity. Unfortunately, when I am told by Reformed Theologians that it is NOT true that EVERYONE who believes has everlasting life--because some who believe don't do other things necessary like persevere in faith and good works--then I have a problem not only with the underlying theology, but with the fact that they are now messing with the interface itself. They're complicating the Gospel.

That's one of the reasons I am free grace. Jesus says EVERYONE who believes in Him HAS (present tense, right now) EVERLASTING life. I believe in Him. I have, therefore, everlasting life. To complicate that is to deny it, and to deny it is to deny the Gospel and call Jesus a liar. And while I get sick of having this debate, too, when soul's hang in the balance, quitting doesn't feel like much of an option to me.

Jac3510 wrote: 1 John 5:13 says we can know that we are saved. Any "gospel" that denies such knowledge is therefore not the Gospel John preached.

Furthermore, 1 John 5:1 says: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."

So, if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you know that you are saved, right? I think this is not agsinst election. You know you believe, you know you were elected, or not?

Jac3510 wrote: Then, I again just suggest that you consider carefully whether or not you should adopt a position that has no scriptural support.

I do not want to adopt a position with no scriptural support.

Jac3510 wrote: And going back to 2 Pet 3:9, if you assume that faith is not a gift (simply on the basis that there is no verse that says as much anywhere), I think you'll find the Calvinistic interpretation a bit of a stretch. Put differently, Calvinists have to interpret 2 Pet 3:9 in light of their theology. When you don't assume that theology, you can't get to that interpretation.

Speaking about Peter's verses: What do you think about 2 Peter 3:15 in connection to 2 Peter 3:9? If 'any' in verse 9 means all then in the light of verse 15 will all be eventually saved?
Now to the faith. I only know that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (John 6:44).

P.S.: I hope you are not getting sick of speaking with me.

Now to the faith. I only know that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (John 6:44).

Hana, we agree with John 6:44. We just don't agree that God drawing him, means regeneration precedes belief. I see God's drawing, as more of a "wooing".

woo/woÍžo/
Verb:

Try to gain the love of (someone, typically a woman), esp. with a view to marriage.

1over137 wrote:Furthermore, 1 John 5:1 says: "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him."

So, if you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you know that you are saved, right? I think this is not agsinst election. You know you believe, you know you were elected, or not?

I know am I elect because I believe, and all believers are elect. Calvinists, however, believe (necessarily) in a doctrine called the final perseverance of the saints (that's the P in the TULIP), which says that all believers will persevere in faith and good works until the end of their lives. But the fact is that some people do not persevere in faith and good works until the end of their lives (Jesus said as much Himself in Luke 8:13). So what do we do with them? Calvinists say that those people were not true believers (against Jesus' own words, I would add), and they proved that by not persevering until the end. That means that even though they believed for a time, they were not really elect. So they would deny that all believers are elect. They would say that all true believers are elect, and then they would qualify "true" as those who persevere in faith and good works until the end. So the fact that you believe is no guarantee that you are a true believer. You may be deceived and have spurious faith, which you will eventually prove by falling away.

Speaking about Peter's verses: What do you think about 2 Peter 3:15 in connection to 2 Peter 3:9? If 'any' in verse 9 means all then in the light of verse 15 will all be eventually saved?

No, I don't. We are to consider His patience salvation precisely because, in His patience, people are saved. Were God not patient, then none of us would have been saved, because all of us had to come to faith at some point in time! That is why He is patient, because He doesn't want anyone to perish. Eventually, though, that patience will run out, and those who still have not believed will, in fact, perish. It will break God's heart, but it will happen all the same.

Now to the faith. I only know that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (John 6:44).

Sure, but who does the Father draw? Look at John's own answer:

• And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. ~John 12:32

So everyone is drawn. The drawing of God is that He testifies to us concerning His Son. We can't believe a testimony that is never given, can we (cf. John 3:33)? So the Cross draws all men. Whoever, then, believes has eternal life. When Calvinists deny that, they deny the Gospel, because they insist that it is not true that whoever believes has eternal life. They say that it is whoever believes and whoever continues in faith and good works until the end. Many, in light of James 2:14, will say that faith isn't enough, that we also have to have works (works produced by faith, of course). So mere belief isn't enough. You have to have faith that produces works, so John 3:16 really ought to say, "Whoever believes and produces good works and maintains this belief and these good works until the end will be saved." In correcting Jesus, they are saying that what He actually said is incorrect, which is to disbelieve Him, which is to disbelieve the testimony of God, which is to deny the Gospel.

Again, I refer you to passages like John 12:42 and Luke 8:13. There were, are, and will be those who believe and fail to produce the proper fruit of faith, and even those who fall away from that faith. Are they saved? If the Gospel is whoever believes has eternal life (John 6:47) then the answer is YES. If, though, the Gospel is whoever believes and produces good works and maintains their faith in Him, then the answer is NO. Flatly, we have two different gospels here. Both cannot be true. One (or possibly both, if there is a third view) is a false gospel.

P.S.: I hope you are not getting sick of speaking with me.

Not in the least. I promise you that. In using the word "sick" I was just playing off of Narnia's own comments. I have been a believer for over twenty years and have been having these discussions for over fifteen. Heck, I've been a member of these boards for I think about ten years (there was a GodAndScience board before this one that I was a part of . . . I was a moderator back then with some others and helped Kurieuo make the shift to the present boards). All that is to say that I've been through these arguments many times, and sometimes it gets tiring saying the same things over and over. But look, that's just part of it. I'm certainly not getting sick of talking to you.

There are, however, people that I have gotten sick of talking to. I promise you, though, that you are no where near that point. If you want to see a good example of all that, go find the thread "Is Calvinism a Heresy?" That is a LONG thread with VERY long replies essentially between me and Puritan Lad. It was rather ugly (note that my language is rather pointed in that one, but there is a long history going back before that!) . . . so no, we're nowhere near all that.

Now to the faith. I only know that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (John 6:44).

Hana, we agree with John 6:44. We just don't agree that God drawing him, means regeneration precedes belief. I see God's drawing, as more of a "wooing".
woo/woÍžo/
Verb:

Try to gain the love of (someone, typically a woman), esp. with a view to marriage.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Absolutely, Rick!!! Which is exactly what the story of Cornelius shows: God wooing and drawing BEFORE salvation. And this continued until God had him to the point of salvation - but again, Cornelius COULD have resisted instead of obeying God's prompting and wooing. Which is what others do ("they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images") - God offered them Himself but THEY "EXCHANGED" that offer for counterfeits of their own making and desires. And as God does allow men to "resist the Holy Spirit" (per Acts 7:51), one must ask himself exactly what the Holy Spirit was urging them toward and to do, if not the exact opposite of what they instead chose to do? And so God stops at permanent resistance, as He will not go further for those mature in their resistance and unbelief. He foreknew that Cornelius would be willing to respond to His wooing just as He so desired - and so He honored and COMPLETED that. So, if you want to say in that sense, that no one can believe without the Holy Spirit, then I would say that is indeed true. But don't read into it something that is filtered through the lenses of a man-made construct.

How did God choose all before they were born? He chose His team per His will. And what is His will? - that those who would respond to Him in obedience, per HIS criteria and within HIS parameters (they must not resist, be willing to respond according to His prompting and initiating) for those team members (those saved) which He desires, and thus He has always known who would respond to His will, and thus chose them accordingly. And He rejected the rebels He has ALWAYS known would one day be born and die as rebels. This is why God's constant berating, threatening and warning - as He offers them salvation that He will initiate and complete - but THEY have to be WILLING to begin and continue to obey God in HIS process that HE will lead them to salvation through - but they can resist it all - OR RESPOND AS HE WISHES. Cornelius DID, and as a result will live forever with the Lord. But it all started with HIS will and HIS criteria, Him making it possible (per the Cross) and cannot be accomplished without HIM overseeing it all.

Philip wrote:

Now to the faith. I only know that no one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him (John 6:44).

Hana, we agree with John 6:44. We just don't agree that God drawing him, means regeneration precedes belief. I see God's drawing, as more of a "wooing".
woo/woÍžo/
Verb:

Try to gain the love of (someone, typically a woman), esp. with a view to marriage.
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9)

Absolutely, Rick!!! Which is exactly what the story of Cornelius shows: God wooing and drawing BEFORE salvation. And this continued until God had him to the point of salvation - but again, Cornelius COULD have resisted instead of obeying God's prompting and wooing. Which is what others do ("they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images") - God offered them Himself but THEY "EXCHANGED" that offer for counterfeits of their own making and desires. And as God does allow men to "resist the Holy Spirit" (per Acts 7:51), one must ask himself exactly what the Holy Spirit was urging them toward and to do, if not the exact opposite of what they instead chose to do? And so God stops at permanent resistance, as He will not go further for those mature in their resistance and unbelief. He foreknew that Cornelius would be willing to respond to His wooing just as He so desired - and so He honored and COMPLETED that. So, if you want to say in that sense, that no one can believe without the Holy Spirit, then I would say that is indeed true. But don't read into it something that is filtered through the lenses of a man-made construct.

How did God choose all before they were born? He chose His team per His will. And what is His will? - that those who would respond to Him in obedience, per HIS criteria and within HIS parameters (they must not resist, be willing to respond according to His prompting and initiating) for those team members (those saved) which He desires, and thus He has always known who would respond to His will, and thus chose them accordingly. And He rejected the rebels He has ALWAYS known would one day be born and die as rebels. This is why God's constant berating, threatening and warning - as He offers them salvation that He will initiate and complete - but THEY have to be WILLING to begin and continue to obey God in HIS process that HE will lead them to salvation through - but they can resist it all - OR RESPOND AS HE WISHES. Cornelius DID, and as a result will live forever with the Lord. But it all started with HIS will and HIS criteria, Him making it possible (per the Cross) and cannot be accomplished without HIM overseeing it all.

The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!

RickD wrote:The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!

On a side note, this reminds me of an Easter sermon I heard back home on this very point. The priest drew an incredibly beautiful symbolic picture of the cross having a horizontal piece that represents our connection to one another as a Christian family, and a vertical piece representing Christ's tie between us and God. I just thought I'd share that.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!

On a side note, this reminds me of an Easter sermon I heard back home on this very point. The priest drew an incredibly beautiful symbolic picture of the cross having a horizontal piece that represents our connection to one another as a Christian family, and a vertical piece representing Christ's tie between us and God. I just thought I'd share that.

So, I agree with something a priest said in a sermon? That means I can't be all bad, in your book, Byblos.

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!

On a side note, this reminds me of an Easter sermon I heard back home on this very point. The priest drew an incredibly beautiful symbolic picture of the cross having a horizontal piece that represents our connection to one another as a Christian family, and a vertical piece representing Christ's tie between us and God. I just thought I'd share that.

So, I agree with something a priest said in a sermon? That means I can't be all bad, in your book, Byblos.

Lol, no not bad at all, remember what my cousin the priest told me? That makes you practically Catholic.

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!

On a side note, this reminds me of an Easter sermon I heard back home on this very point. The priest drew an incredibly beautiful symbolic picture of the cross having a horizontal piece that represents our connection to one another as a Christian family, and a vertical piece representing Christ's tie between us and God. I just thought I'd share that.

So, I agree with something a priest said in a sermon? That means I can't be all bad, in your book, Byblos.

Lol, no not bad at all, remember what my cousin the priest told me? That makes you practically Catholic.

Getting my speedos ready...Tiber, here I come!!!!!

Practically Catholic? maybe. We're just on opposite sides of the river.

Byblos, you are writing a book?

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:

Byblos wrote:

RickD wrote:The cross is what makes it possible for God to draw men to Himself!!!!!!

On a side note, this reminds me of an Easter sermon I heard back home on this very point. The priest drew an incredibly beautiful symbolic picture of the cross having a horizontal piece that represents our connection to one another as a Christian family, and a vertical piece representing Christ's tie between us and God. I just thought I'd share that.

So, I agree with something a priest said in a sermon? That means I can't be all bad, in your book, Byblos.

Lol, no not bad at all, remember what my cousin the priest told me? That makes you practically Catholic.

Getting my speedos ready...Tiber, here I come!!!!!

Practically Catholic? maybe. We're just on opposite sides of the river.

I tend to think of it as 2 sides of the same coin.

1over137 wrote:Byblos, you are writing a book?

English idiom fail!!!

So, I agree with something a priest said in a sermon? That means I can't be all bad, in your book, Byblos.

in my book (informal)
in my opinion

Byblos wrote:
I tend to think of it as 2 sides of the same coin.

That's fine, as long as you're tails.