Evidence for God from Science

Zionist wrote:lol @ Gman. but in all seriousness the belief in the pre trib rapture does promote a division in the body whether one knows it or not. gentile believers and the jewish people are all one in messiah. to separate the body goes against the writings of the apostles. people tend to believe the church and israel are separate but in reality we are all one in the eyes of God. how can people belive the jews must suffer through tribulation when the church gets taken away from it? don't people see the examples God gives us through his word about going through tribulation being in the world? when yeshua comes we'll all live in israel, become a part with israel grafted into the tribe of judah through the blood of messiah. i know you know all this Gman just it does make me wonder why most believers today dont understand the hebrew roots of their faith. it just shines much more meanig on messiah and helps clear confusion in the many doctrines taught today.

It can, but shouldn't.
The division should have to do with scripture. "Rightly dividing the Word of truth," is certainly a scriptural concept and instruction.
There are so many dispensational views it's gotten out of hand. But basically the word dispensation is a biblical word having to do with distribution.

Dispensationism doesn't preach that Jews must suffer. It preaches that God has, just as His word says, a plan for an earthly Kingdom. And that earthly Kingdom is through Israel. So, a Pauline dispensationalist (PD) would view the time we are in now as the Dispensaton of Grace. The Kingdom plan of Israel has been interupted. The Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter and the little flock was put asside for a time, and Paul is the Apostle of this Gospel of Grace, which is now in affect. (Col. 1:25; Eph. 3:2) In this current dispensation, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. The Jew can believe on Christ for salvation, same as anyone else, and be baptized into the Body of Christ. The difference is that this is a heavenly people. Geography, Theocracy, and lineage are not the issue in the Body of Christ.
PD also holds that there will come a time that God will renew His covenant with Israel and will establish an Earthly rule. And this is where a lot of the issues come into play. Sure it can be confusing. Jesus' own hand picked Apostles, even after 40 days with the risen Lord, were unsure of when this would happen. (Acts 1:6) There is little question that Jesus Himself made such distinctions while in His earthly ministry. "Go not to the Gentiles." And, it also makes sense of the ministry of Paul.

jlay wrote:

Zionist wrote:lol @ Gman. but in all seriousness the belief in the pre trib rapture does promote a division in the body whether one knows it or not. gentile believers and the jewish people are all one in messiah. to separate the body goes against the writings of the apostles. people tend to believe the church and israel are separate but in reality we are all one in the eyes of God. how can people belive the jews must suffer through tribulation when the church gets taken away from it? don't people see the examples God gives us through his word about going through tribulation being in the world? when yeshua comes we'll all live in israel, become a part with israel grafted into the tribe of judah through the blood of messiah. i know you know all this Gman just it does make me wonder why most believers today dont understand the hebrew roots of their faith. it just shines much more meanig on messiah and helps clear confusion in the many doctrines taught today.

It can, but shouldn't.
The division should have to do with scripture. "Rightly dividing the Word of truth," is certainly a scriptural concept and instruction.
There are so many dispensational views it's gotten out of hand. But basically the word dispensation is a biblical word having to do with distribution.

Dispensationism doesn't preach that Jews must suffer. It preaches that God has, just as His word says, a plan for an earthly Kingdom. And that earthly Kingdom is through Israel. So, a Pauline dispensationalist (PD) would view the time we are in now as the Dispensaton of Grace. The Kingdom plan of Israel has been interupted. The Gospel of the Kingdom committed to Peter and the little flock was put asside for a time, and Paul is the Apostle of this Gospel of Grace, which is now in affect. (Col. 1:25; Eph. 3:2) In this current dispensation, there is NO DIFFERENCE between Jew and Gentile. The Jew can believe on Christ for salvation, same as anyone else, and be baptized into the Body of Christ. The difference is that this is a heavenly people. Geography, Theocracy, and lineage are not the issue in the Body of Christ.
PD also holds that there will come a time that God will renew His covenant with Israel and will establish an Earthly rule. And this is where a lot of the issues come into play. Sure it can be confusing. Jesus' own hand picked Apostles, even after 40 days with the risen Lord, were unsure of when this would happen. (Acts 1:6) There is little question that Jesus Himself made such distinctions while in His earthly ministry. "Go not to the Gentiles." And, it also makes sense of the ministry of Paul.

first i would like to point out that i consider you a very knowledgeable person jay and respect your intelect but i see a problem with a lot of your debates and arguments and that is your use of pauline dispensationalism to defend everything. you use this argument to defend your idea for everything in scripture. scripture should be your first and primary resource and scripture should be used to define scripture not a theological idea developed by darby. there is a kernel of truth in dispensationalism but it is far from a perfect theology much like each denomination has kernals of truth in them. progressive revelation doesn't mean that the previous revelation is now null or somehow not for the "dispensation" we are in; in fact, i will suggest that every form of progressive revelation doesn't do away with the previous but adds to it. you see this with each covenant established by God and Paul himself talks about this in the book of Galatians. i know that this you will not agree with but i ask that you please take the time and read God's word without the traditions and doctrines you have grown up with but instead quarantine yourself with nothing but the word of God and take your time in it and stay in deep prayer over this theology you put a lot of faith in brother, because i know from experience and as my brother in messiah it is my duty to help my brethren. aside from that as a dispensationalist i assume you believe in the pre trib rapture am i correct? i myself used to be a dispensationalist, pre tribulational believer myself but when i truly took the time to study God's word i saw how it does not add up with scripture. im sorry but there is no pre tribulation rapture and scripture is very clear on this.

pre-wrath means that Jesus returns (secretly) before the last trumpet. Jesus will NOT return before that heralding sound. Pre-wrath and mid-trib are quite similar in many ways. If people are Raptured at the 6th seal, then one must conclude that in fact there is a resurrection before Christ returns. This is not what scripture teaches at all.

Where does it say we shouldn't be concerned with the rapture or 2nd coming?

Rapture can happen anytime, if its mid or post, well then it can't happen anytime can it?

God will NOT allow the Church to go through the Tribulation Period, what purpose does this show- those who have already trusted Him? Are they (we) not already over-comers of the World. Its certainly not like what we go through today- It will be a time of atrocities as the world has never known! God wouldn't destroy the wicked in Noah's day until Noah and his family were all safely aboard the ark. Not one drop of rain fell until Noah and his family were on the ark, and God had shut the door. Afterwards, the rains fell and the wicked were utterly destroyed.

What about Lot and his family. Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither." No judgment could fall upon Sodom, until Lot and his family were removed or raptured?

As I read there is a day we don't know and a day we could know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events. Its my humble opinion from what I've read in scripture that the Church is the one holding back the Antichrist or lawlessness. I could be wrong...

The scripture says all who endure to the end will be saved (all who hold on to the testimony of Jesus during the tribulation).

That word "all" should nullify any doctrine that says there will be no second chance of salvation for those who heard the gospel but were not part of the spiritual body of Christ before the rapture or tribulation. The passage clearly excludes no one and we see that true repentance leads to salvation throughout scripture.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Who are those that come out of greater tribulation? How can this differ from saints and tribulation saints? Who will populate the Millineum?
Just some thoughts!!!

zacchaeus wrote:Where does it say we shouldn't be concerned with the rapture or 2nd coming?

Rapture can happen anytime, if its mid or post, well then it can't happen anytime can it?

God will NOT allow the Church to go through the Tribulation Period, what purpose does this show- those who have already trusted Him? Are they (we) not already over-comers of the World. Its certainly not like what we go through today- It will be a time of atrocities as the world has never known! God wouldn't destroy the wicked in Noah's day until Noah and his family were all safely aboard the ark. Not one drop of rain fell until Noah and his family were on the ark, and God had shut the door. Afterwards, the rains fell and the wicked were utterly destroyed.

What about Lot and his family. Genesis 19:22, "Haste thee, escape thither; for I cannot do any thing till thou be come thither." No judgment could fall upon Sodom, until Lot and his family were removed or raptured?

As I read there is a day we don't know and a day we could know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events. Its my humble opinion from what I've read in scripture that the Church is the one holding back the Antichrist or lawlessness. I could be wrong...

The scripture says all who endure to the end will be saved (all who hold on to the testimony of Jesus during the tribulation).

That word "all" should nullify any doctrine that says there will be no second chance of salvation for those who heard the gospel but were not part of the spiritual body of Christ before the rapture or tribulation. The passage clearly excludes no one and we see that true repentance leads to salvation throughout scripture.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony; and they loved not their life even unto death.

Who are those that come out of greater tribulation? How can this differ from saints and tribulation saints? Who will populate the Millineum?
Just some thoughts!!!

Zacchaeus, please notice what Matthew 24:40-41 NKJV says:

"...Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."

Notice - these folks were in the same field and in the same mill. That speaks volumes and provides an answer for you simply summed up: some taken some left behind.

Recall that Lot chose not to head to the mountains he was told to go while being forcibly escorted from Sodom, he chose to stay on the plains in Zohar, and ended up in a cave... Lot, though righteous by God, influenced no one in Sodom for God and neglected even his own family's spiritual conditions as well. (remember Lot's wife)

Recall that Noah and his family built an Ark and were raised above, as well as saved from, the flood of God's wrath... (Mat 24:28c)

Now read Matthew 24:45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51c that follow the verses from Matthew mentioned above and toss in the principle found in 1 Peter 4:17: "For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"

Judgment begins first in the house of God and Revelations chapter 2 and 3 speak of such judgment (Take note of Isaiah 26:15, 16, 17, 18 and 1 Thessalonians 5:3). From Revelation chapter 2 and 3, only one group out of the seven assemblies was given this promise in Revelations chapter 2 and 3: "You have kept my command to put up with anything that happens. So I will keep you from the time of suffering that is going to come to the whole world. It will test those who live on the earth." Rev 3:10, NIrV

Isaiah 26:19-22 NIV: "But your dead will live, LORD; their bodies will rise-- let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy-- your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead. (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16, 17, 18x) 20 Go, my people, enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until his wrath has passed by. 21 See, the LORD is coming out of his dwelling to punish the people of the earth for their sins. The earth will disclose the bloodshed on it; the earth will conceal its slain no longer."

Luke 17:33-37, "Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left." 37 And they answered and said to Him, "Where, Lord?" So He said to them, "Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together." NKJV

So, zacchaeus - what do these verses say to you?
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Well 1 Thess 17 says where we meet Him (not Him coming to the earth) but in the "air" so no doubt there is a rapture. Lets reconcile this with 2 Thess 2, surely he didn't think they would be there till the second coming?

Isaiah 26:21 Questions, where is He dwelling considering He is omnipresent? Which people does He punish? Those left right, after the rapture? Are these the same people in vs 10? Compare Rev 9:20 and 17:2?

These scriptures seem tough, maybe I should commence more study but for now I'm not sure what else to say?

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33 (KJV) Acts 15:13-18, 1 Thes. 1:10 and 1 Thes. 5:9.

B. W. wrote:Recall that Lot chose not to head to the mountains he was told to go while being forcibly escorted from Sodom, he chose to stay on the plains in Zohar, and ended up in a cave... Lot, though righteous by God, influenced no one in Sodom for God and neglected even his own family's spiritual conditions as well. (remember Lot's wife)

Lot was like a model of the Church (in sense)- needed rescuing from "time/place" of the coming judgment before it can begin!!!

Luke 17:26-27 Jesus was saying the same how in the days of Noah unbelievers didn't heed the warnings they were given, so they didn’t avail themselves of the Lord’s provision for their "rescue". They too were caught off guard by "surprise" when the flood came and it destroyed them all.

Lot indeed was taken away from the time and place of the judgment before it began. In fact the angels who were sent to remove him said they couldn’t bring the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot was away and safe.

Clearly, we do not know the exact day...but it will be.....

But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.… Matthew 24:29, 30

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:16,17.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (2 Thess. 2:1-3).

But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; 1 thess 5:4

sometime...After the tribulation. Don't stress.....Get ready!

Three things.

Look up "DAY OF THE LORD" in the old testament. I believe its in there twice, in Malachi and Zechariah. You don't want to be taken on that day for sure, because those people are going to death and judgment.

Thief in the night - John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:

WHEN? - Matthew 24:39-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Guys, I realize this is a silly pet peeve of mine, but the Apostle John wrote ONE book called "Revelation" (SINGULAR!). My other similar peeve is when people talk about Chicago and pronounce the "s" at the end of "Illinois." Sounds like there might be TWO such states.

But as to why it is useless to speculate about end-time events - not to be aware of what Revelation speaks of - but to speculate any specific timing or certain sequence of events is totally useless. Discerning such things turns on too many unknowable variables.

See what well-know conservative evangelical Bible scholar Michael Heiser says about this issue - here he explains the problems/difficulties in great detail (really worth your time): http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible ... iscussion/

philipthegrammarpolice wrote:
Guys, I realize this is a silly pet peeve of mine, but the Apostle John wrote ONE book called "Revelation" (SINGULAR!).

I thought John wrote more than ONE book. Was Revelations his only book?

TLDR. Everyone knows the rapture will hap

I thought John wrote more than ONE book. Was Revelations his only book?

No ... and no!

Jac3510 wrote:TLDR. Everyone knows the rapture will hap

Thank God we are finally rid of him!!!

Nice try, but we know you're not really raptured Jac. If you were really gone, you wouldn't have been able to hit "submit" to post the message.

You are still here, aren't you Jac? Jac?

More likely, Jac's wife said, "Get away from that computer, I need you in the kitchen - NOW!!!"