Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:Paul, I hope you're not saying that people can't know that the true God EXISTS - no matter what remote jungle or far corner of the earth the live in? Or that they can't reject even THAT limited knowledge of Him? Is the law not written on their hearts as well?

Well, the whole point of preaching to Gospel is for people to know it, right?
Which means that if no one preaches it, how will people know it?
Every culture has an "idea" of God, as much as they may differ in the expression of that idea.
The issue is that sometimes that idea is misunderstood or conveyed incorrectly or even falsely on purpose.
Many times a "false prophet" can take that "law" already "written in the heart" and pervert its message, driving a person away from God.
Some people are so turned off by an experience with an organized religion that they turn to atheism for example, while others may find "comfort" in the arms of a different expression of religion.
It is crucial for US to understand WHY ONLY God can judge the faith of others, because ONLY God truly knows why a person woudl reject Him, why a person has never "known' Him and from God they can't hide the truth.

Paul, don't get me wrong - I DO believe God gives ALL people a chance, but that chance begins long before we understand the Gospel or sometimes even have it, as He is already reaching out to us in many ways to draw us. And the "General Revelation" is just the unmistakable beginning of this for the heathen. We were all born with the need to worship. Notice that in the Romans passage, that in explaining the REASON why men are without excuse, the rejection of the Gospel is never even mentioned. That's because we CAN reject God even BEFORE having or hearing the Gospel. But how can one hear further and critical information if they don't even want to dialog with and if they have already rebuffed and ignored all initial understandings from the One Who can, wants to, and otherwise WOULD have provided it?

One must admit that Romans 2:12 is pretty clear: "For ALL who have sinned without the law will ALSO PERISH without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Yes, people WILL be judged on what they KNOW, not on what they don't know. But God tells us that ALL do know of His basic attributes, that He exists, and His moral law is on their hearts - now, all of those are enough for one to seek God and respond to what initiating knowledge He has ALREADY given. He's as close as their next breath. And it's clear that Paul says they COULD have fully known God but chose not to honor what He had already shown them, much less honor THAT by seeking Him. He even says that their own very consciences convict them. So God's condemnation of the heathen has to do with what they already know. And thus ignorance of the Gospel is no "get out of (eternal) jail card." This is precisely why Paul categorically states that, "they are without excuse!"

Paul, don't get me wrong - I DO believe God gives ALL people a chance, but that chance begins long before we understand the Gospel or sometimes even have it, as He is already reaching out to us in many ways to draw us. And the "General Revelation" is just the unmistakable beginning of this for the heathen. We were all born with the need to worship. Notice that in the Romans passage, that in explaining the REASON why men are without excuse, the rejection of the Gospel is never even mentioned. That's because we CAN reject God even BEFORE having or hearing the Gospel. But how can one hear further and critical information if they don't even want to dialog with and if they have already rebuffed and ignored all initial understandings from the One Who can, wants to, and otherwise WOULD have provided it?

We can reject God based on our failed understanding of God, yes ( if we have not been exposed to the NT) but would God judge Us for that in the same way as one that has KNOWN the Gospel, known the HS and still rejected? No I don't think so.

One must admit that Romans 2:12 is pretty clear: "For ALL who have sinned without the law will ALSO PERISH without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law." Yes, people WILL be judged on what they KNOW, not on what they don't know. But God tells us that ALL do know of His basic attributes, that He exists, and His moral law is on their hearts - now, all of those are enough for one to seek God and respond to what initiating knowledge He has ALREADY given. He's as close as their next breath. And it's clear that Paul says they COULD have fully known God but chose not to honor what He had already shown them, much less honor THAT by seeking Him. He even says that their own very consciences convict them. So God's condemnation of the heathen has to do with what they already know. And thus ignorance of the Gospel is no "get out of (eternal) jail card." This is precisely why Paul categorically states that, "they are without excuse!"

People seem to think that God taking into account those that have NOT known the Gospel and have NOT know the HS is some sort of "get out of jail free card" and it is NOT that, far from that.
God judges fairly and impartially as ONLY GOD can.
God KNOWS those that reject Him because they want to and those that reject out of ignorance and/or confusion.

We can reject God based on our failed understanding of God

God says that He has made clear to them what can be known about Him and that any misunderstandings of His key attributes or what He says is sufficient for more, comes from THEIR willful, intentional rejection ("THEIR unrighteousness) of the things that make up that truth. Clearly, Scripture says that this ALONE is enough for them to be condemned.

And WHAT misunderstanding? "For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,7 in the things that have been made." IMMEDIATELY followed by: "So they are without excuse."

"those that reject out of ignorance and/or confusion"

Scripture says that ANY confusion about what they initially need to know (which would lead to them knowing more) is because MEN, "who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth." It's not because they weren't given enough information or that God left them in confusion. The above Scriptural supports would seem to contradict your contention. And so UNLESS there are further things God does that we cannot see, then all we are left with is hopeful speculation that there is another opportunity for the heathen to understand what it appears to US mortals that they originally did not.

One thing is certain to me, that God is more than fair with ALL men and He has cut no one off for mere misunderstandings or lack of knowledge. But we just don't see all that God does or that He has been doing. Of course, that cuts both ways, as MAYBE, but without anything approaching certainty, there is more to this than can be determined by us (which is why the NDEs are interesting). But I'd never definitively say more than what Scripture has revealed to us on this subject.

Paul, I can see where your heart is on this - that, at least on the surface, we perceive that those without the Gospel have not had the very same chance. And, of course, Jesus said that those without the Gospel will receive a lesser punishment. And we know God is fair and yet being condemned for not embracing something (the Gospel)that they have not known about seems grotesquely unfair. However, that is not what Scriptures on this teach - that's not the reason that God considers them guilty.

Plus, you can't split up the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. To reject any one "person" within the Trinity is to also reject God in His entirety. To know of all portions of God (Father, Son, Spirit) and to reject any one is to also reject God. But we can only reject the parts/depths of Himself which God has already revealed to us. Romans says the Heathen have already done that, and so further illumination was not forthcoming. It would appear that God deems more information as unnecessary, as that would be rejected as well. Remember, those that lived amongst Jesus, saw unbelievable miracles, knew of Lazarus' raising, etc, etc, yet many STILL would not believe. Moses led Israel out of Egypt per astonishing miracles, drowned the pursuing Egyptian army after first parting the Red Sea - and YET, Moses is barely out of camp before they're building a Golden Calf. So we can see that we shouldn't assume, just as with ancient Israel and as also with those heathens without the Gospel, rejection need not be a knowledge problem, it's a HEART problem! And God has already told us about the human heart's deceptive ways.

I think you are giving man WAY to much credit there, LOL !
The reason we have so many denominations ( not to mention religions) is because Man, in his fallen nature, does NOT know God as he SHOULD.
That is why God came down to man, because there was no way for man to "come up" to God.
God spoke to the Hebrew Prophets, He directly involved Himself with Israel and yet...
God walked the Earth in His Son and Yet...
IMO you are taking what Paul has writen to the Church in Rome, speaking about those that KNEW God and KNEW the Gospel and turned away from HIm and applying it to those that have NOT known God, Have not Know the Gospel and may have as their only expereince with Christ, a false gospel.
I don't think that is what Paul is saying and I don't think that God will condem them for it ( without judgment).

Non-believers will be judged by their actions and the reason for their lack of faith will be judged, but only by God and Christ, not by Us or anyone else.
The same goes for those that believed but believed in "something else" or in some "other" Gospel.

IMO you are taking what Paul has writen to the Church in Rome, speaking about those that KNEW God and KNEW the Gospel and turned away from HIm and applying it to those that have NOT known God, Have not Know the Gospel and may have as their only expereince with Christ, a false gospel.
I don't think that is what Paul is saying

Yes, Paul is writing to Christians, but not ABOUT Christians or those he is addressing the letter to. The context of his comments do not allow for this. Why else would he be explaining about what could be known about God apart from the direct, highly detailed and specifics of their Holy OT books, or the circulating teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, etc? He is obviously referencing heathen peoples and explaining what they COULD know despite not having the Scriptures, and certainly not what would be obvious to a 1st Century Christian.

And why would Paul connect the words about "God's invisible attributes" and extra-scriptural knowledge of God (and additional information related to the "General Revelation"), and then especially why would he be so inclusive as to say that those he's speaking of have had such information, "ever since the creation of the world ..."? All other Apostle addresses and letters are within the confines of the basic knowledge of either evangelizing or within the context of building upon the knowledge base of those already saved. And if your contention is true, one would definitely imagine that Paul would reference their knowledge of the Apostle's teachings, or some reference to Jesus, and certainly not by simplistically referencing, "in the things that have been made." And not a word about failure to repent or rejection of Christ - OF THOSE WHOM HAD SUPPOSEDLY BEEN FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST BUT FELL AWAY? And instead of simply referencing the people he is speaking of having "no excuse" for rejecting the Gospel, failing to truly believe and repent, falling away, etc., he instead references the far more obscure, FAR less knowledgeable things than those exposed to the Gospel would have known. This just makes no sense at all. And I think you'll be hard pressed to find any conservative theologians that take a "high view" of Scripture agreeing with you.

Anyway, as we're Brothers of the same Lord, we'll just have to agree to disagree. And truly, Paul, I'm not trying to be combative. But at the end of the day, how God deals with those without the Gospel is HIS call. And, shockingly, the last time I checked, He still hadn't asked for my opinion on this.

I agree 100% my brother
I love having these discussions because it opens my mind to alternative views and understandings and makes me aware of the rich tapestry that is our Christian faith.
Many of these debates and discussion between believers deal with the "peripheral" of theology and not the core, the so called "gray areas" that are not explicit in the bible and can be interpreted in various ways BUT the core is Christ and Our Salvation through Him

And like you said, as much as we can debate this, God will do what He wants and He hasn't asked me my opinion on this either, LOL !

I just want to try to make my view as clear as I can and WHY I think this way in regards to that passage from Romans:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth [l]in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident [m]within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not [n]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [o]crawling creatures.

Paul makes a statement above that speaks to WHO the wrath of God is revealed to and that is those that are ungodly and unrighteous who supress the truth (about God and the Gospel).
He continues stating that God has made everything evident to THEM, that since creation everything that God is has been clearly seen to that THEY are without excuse and WHO is "them" and "they"? the people that God's wrath is on, the ones that supress the truth.
He goes on to show that THEY ( the same people) KNEW God and did not honour Him but rejected him.
So these people that God's wrath is one are people that KNEW God, rejected God, have no excuse for their ungodly and unrighteous acts and their supression of the truth.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for [p]a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed [q]forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is [r]unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in [t]their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, [v] haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Paul continues to write about THEM ( the same ungodly and unrightrous people that KNEW God but rejected Him and have no excuse and are under the wrath of God for what they have done).
Note that Paul says that they did not see fit to acknowledge God ANY LONGER and so, God gave them up to their depraved Mind.
He states that they KNEW the ordinance of God and that what they are doing would bring them death ( the full death not just the mortal death we all face of course).

From my view, these passages are Paul making a statement about those that KNEW GOD and Have CHOSEN to reject and fall away from God so God's wrath ( in the form of giving them up to their depraved minds) is on them for not only rejecting God ( God says to them, they will be done) but for also acting ungodly, unrightrously AND for supressing the truth about God and the Gospel.

In my view, that is what Jesus was meaning when He spoke about the "blasphemy against the HS that kills the soul".