Evidence for God from Science

Philip, from your posts, it seems the abortion issue is a very important reason you are siding with Romney. Have you looked at Romney's stance on abortion while governor of Massachusetts? It's eye opening. Also, look into when Romney decided to flip flop to a pro life agenda. It's purely a political change of belief, IMO. He changed when he realized that in order to successfully run for president, he needed to be more conservative. He needed to be more "liberal" to get the governor job in the extremely liberal state of Massachusetts. He's just a typical politician, who changes his beliefs when it best suits his interests. It's funny. Just for giggles, I took a few political quizzes, to see which candidate I agreed with the most. The quizzes had all the recent candidates. On every quiz, my answers overwhelmingly said I agreed with Romney. If I were just a casual, uninformed(of Romney's past) voter, I'd think Romney would get my vote. And, I'm sure many people will vote for him, just because of what he says he believes this time.

Philip wrote:No, not at all. But you should carefully listen and consider their opinions because they have a lifetimes of experiences and of watching the difference between people's thinking as young adults and then later as they approach 30. And there are definite physiological reasons for that ongoing maturity. My dad sure seemed so much smarter once I reached 25. At 20 I thought he was clueless. So go figure why someone might not take a kid who thinks he's got such weighty issues all figured out, very seriously - especially when they espouse certain views. Doesn't mean they don't know a lot, but there is definitely a huge number of things they only understand superficially. And that is almost universally true of all young people.

Research it: The part of the brain which controls reasoning and impulses - known as the Prefrontal Cortex - is near the front of the brain and, therefore, develops last. This part of the brain does not fully mature until the age of 25. Insurance rates and a whole lot of other things are predicated upon this very fact - that and the real-world statistics that back this up.

Life experience: Physical and mental maturity can develop somewhat differently, depending upon the individual and their environment. But its the many years of personal experience and of watching the experiences of others that can really shape one's big-picture outlook. And spiritual maturity can depend upon a variety of factors, primarily with one's relationship with God and whether or not they are maturely discipled, and over how long a period.

Sorry, Styrian, I don't mean to be disrespectful, but just to point out that much of what just seems so clear and right to you, now, is very likely to change.

But if you do find such a pastor as I described, that advocates not voting, do let me know about it. That should be a clue about that issue.

I wish you well, my friend!

Phillip, I just wanted to say as it seems you're alone here at the moment, that I have been in agreement with pretty much everything you've said. I'm pretty young, around Stygian's age, but, I just also wanted to specifically say that I found what you said here very true. Often times us younger people forget that we're supposed to respect our elders (Leviticus 19:32, Proverbs 23:22, 1 Timothy 5:1), including their opinions and views that we often disagree with! We're to respect the wisdom and life experience they have that we don't, especially our elders who are in Christ.

Not to say that younger people shouldn't have opinions, or can't have opinions that differ from the elders around them, but that they should take their elders' advice and opinions to heart and keep them in mind.

Also, as far as this issue, not to say that all adults feel the same way, with Rick here as an example. Even if I disagree completely, still, I can understand and respect his (and Stygian's and others') position.

OK, I just got a bit annoyed because I don't believe Stygian yet has a mature perspective. What he does have is passion to argue his position. But despite pulling the OF card on him, I think both he and Rick are dangerously wrong.

Rick, I've spent a lot of time up in MA. I know that Romney has flipped and flopped. And I sorely wish there was another option.

But here's what I do know: We know Obama very well. He has been a disaster on many levels. I truly don't believe he is a Christian in anything other than name only. We pretty much know how Obama thinks and the kinds of policies he will pursue.

Romney has become prominent by tracking toward conservative stances, both economically and socially. And clearly, he's not a Christian either. But IF I vote, and yet Romney turns out just as bad, then nothing gained/nothing lost. But here's the deal: There is a very good chance that Romney is going to make conservative choices in his nominees to the courts and otherwise. He has built a conservative coalition. Even reluctant Christians have embraced him. And it's not his political values that dismay Christians, it's just that they wish he were one. But being president is not like being a governor. If Romney expects to accomplish anything to turn some things around in this country, he will need his conservative backers around the country to do so. He can't afford to alienate conservative voters (social, moral or fiscal). So this means that as far as his court picks and policies, there are very good reasons to believe that they would be people of conservative and moral values.

And, yes, abortion is a huge issue for me. The very right to be born shouldn't even be up for debate. Romney says he wants to choose people for courts, etc. that are pro-life. Says he is now - has become "enlightened." Is he merely, cynically using this issue for votes? Who knows. And frankly, I don't care, IF it means he will make picks that could change the tilt of the court on this issue. I'd rather vote in the hopes that this is what he does. If not, what harm has been done? At least I tried to support someone that at least MIGHT do some of the good things that he says he will, that might play a role in eliminating our national "Holocaust of the womb." There are good reasons to think that he will choose nominees that make that possible. And even if he only changed some of the disastrous policies of Obama, then we would have gained some good things. And as for abortion, even just the mere CHANCE to stop abortion on demand is worth voting for Romney. No, it's no certainty, but the potential is certainly there that he would make the right picks to do so are a definite possibility.

I am not naive about the dangers of big business or greedy people. I've spent over 15 years as a marketing professional in corporate entities. I do know how business people think and what it takes to run a company, grow a business, and employ many people. And one thing I definitely know is that our economy is Greece in the making! Obama has not a clue about how to encourage the building of anything. He only knows how to re-distribute the hard-earned efforts of others and is determined to further (yikes!) grow government and spending. This alone makes him FAR more dangerous than Romney. With his total lack of leadership on coming up with an economic plan, or strategy on our debt situation, this alone shows his ineptness. We are in an urgent, potentially castastrophic economic situation. We need to get out debt under control, ASAP! Obama just doesn't get this. He certainly has no plan. This is extremely frightening! We're talking potential for a major economic depression that could well impact the future of our children's children. And playing class warfare or party politics ain't gonna solve squat; it won't stop the onslaught of what our massive debt can do to us.

At least Romney knows about business and commerce, and has run companies. He's had to make a lot of very difficult business decisions. He knows how to encourage business. He is QUALIFIED to understand these things. He knows that while there are reasonable regulations, that we also must do what we can to grow industry and business. These are these are the engines that run America. You harm them, you harm hard-working people's livelihoods everywhere. But Obama hasn't a clue how this country works or what makes capitalism tick. He's a pro at community organizing, playing politics, and class warfare. But he's never run ANYTHING before being president. He doesn't have the necessary knowledge or the sensibilities. He's basically been an enemy of business. He just doesn't understand it, know how to encourage it, or how it must make hard decisions to survive.

The above shows enormous differences between what we might expect of these two men. It's not that I am of any certainty that Romney will be some of the things I hope that he will be. But it sure appears he couldn't be any worse than the disaster we have in office now. And even the mere hope that he could be a fraction better on just a few important issues than Obama is means that we should give him that chance. Certainly as our other option appears far more dismal.

But as for those who say that there are NO REAL differences of importance between Obama and Romney, WHATEVER your political leanings, I'd say you must be clueless to many issues. And to assert that Romney would be just as bad - HOW do you know such a thing? Fact is, you DON'T. But you appear to want certainty before ever voting. Your refuse to realize that we must make difficult choices amongst highly imperfect choices. But as for denying that, well, that's just not being in the REAL world.

And, yes, abortion is a huge issue for me. The very right to be born shouldn't even be up for debate. Romney says he wants to choose people for courts, etc. that are pro-life. Says he is now - has become "enlightened." Is he merely, cynically using this issue for votes? Who knows. And frankly, I don't care, IF it means he will make picks that could change the tilt of the court on this issue. I'd rather vote in the hopes that this is what he does. If not, what harm has been done? At least I tried to support someone that at least MIGHT do some of the good things that he says he will, that might play a role in eliminating our national "Holocaust of the womb." There are good reasons to think that he will choose nominees that make that possible. And even if he only changed some of the disastrous policies of Obama, then we would have gained some good things. And as for abortion, even just the mere CHANCE to stop abortion on demand is worth voting for Romney. No, it's no certainty, but the potential is certainly there that he would make the right picks to do so are a definite possibility.

Yes, I agree that there is certainly a possibility that under Romney, abortion laws could change. The rights of the unborn certainly seem to have no chance under Obama. Just be realistic. How many conservative presidents have been able to overturn roe vs wade?

At least Romney knows about business and commerce, and has run companies. He's had to make a lot of very difficult business decisions. He knows how to encourage business. He is QUALIFIED to understand these things. He knows
that while there are reasonable regulations, that we also must do what we can to grow industry and business. These are
these are the engines that run America. You harm them, you harm hard-working people's livelihoods everywhere. But
Obama hasn't a clue how this country works or what makes capitalism tick. He's a pro at community organizing, playing
politics, and class warfare. But he's never run ANYTHING before being president. He doesn't have the necessary knowledge
or the sensibilities. He's basically been an enemy of business. He just doesn't understand it, know how to encourage it, or
how it must make hard decisions to survive.

This is where I tend to agree with you Philip. Romney does give us some hope that our national debt may diminish. Keep in mind, Romney raised fees $240 million, his first year as governor of Massachusetts. Expect fees(taxes) to be raised if Willard gets in office.

But as for those who say that there are NO REAL differences of importance between Obama and Romney, WHATEVER your political leanings, I'd say you must be clueless to many issues. And to assert that Romney would be just as bad - HOW do you know such a thing? Fact is, you DON'T. But you appear to want certainty before ever voting. Your refuse to realize that we must make difficult choices amongst highly imperfect choices. But as for denying that, well, that's just not being in the REAL world.

You are correct. We don't know that Romney will be "just as bad" as Obama. We can only assume what Romney will do as president, based on what he has done in the past. And his past, IMO, doesn't look that great. If I had a choice of any other candidate that says he believes exactly as Romney does, but doesn't have Romney's past, he would get my vote in a heartbeat.
Philip, after reading your arguments, you make some great points. If any of the things we hope might be changed under Romney, actually get changed, then IMO, it would be better than what we have now. Given Romney's past record, I just have no sense that he will be able to change a whole lot.
Keep making an argument for Romney. You never know. Something you might say, could make me change my mind to vote for him.

I just have one question for you that I'm a little unsure about. Did you say you are a fan of Obama, or not? You seem to be on the fence about what you think of Obama's time in office.

I just wanted to add that there were some great points made in this thread by Jac, jlay, and PaulS:http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 30&t=37437
Ultimately, this boils down to the same thing it does in every other presidential election that I have been of voting age for. I go where my conscience leads. My conscience will not allow me to vote for either candidate that we have been forced to choose from. As much as I disagree with what Obama has done, I don't think it's as bad as the conservative right makes it out to be. IMO, both Obama and Romney will take our country in the wrong direction. And, I can't, in good conscience, vote for someone who I believe will take our country in the wrong direction. Will Romney take us in the wrong direction slower than Obama? Maybe, maybe not.
I just urge all people to vote their conscience. Whatever that may be.

Rick wrote: "I just have one question for you that I'm a little unsure about. Did you say you are a fan of Obama, or not? You seem to be on the fence about what you think of Obama's time in office. "

Well, Rick, let's just say that the day I vote for Obama will be the same day I embrace Five Point Calvinism - and you'll know that the debate over that belief system it totally over.

Yet the more I see how entrenched your views are on this, I'm beginning to question the very concept of free will. Maybe you're just been smelling too much elephant and circus animal poo?

Well, Rick, let's just say that the day I vote for Obama will be the same day I embrace Five Point Calvinism - and you'll know that the debate over that belief system it totally over.

Philip, I can picture your gravestone now: "Here lies Philip, ardent Barack Obama supporter, and lifelong 5 point Calvinist."

Now, THAT, was a nightmare!!! ALMOST as bad as another term by B.O.

Philip, if you enjoyed that, I'm sure you'll love this site:
flip-flop

And another:Romney's conversion on abortion

Can this guy really be trusted to lead our country? Use discernment, and judge for yourselves.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.... I simply don't put faith in politicians. God tells us not to put faith in anybody but Him. My age also doesn't give anybody an excuse to say I don't have a 'mature perspective' on something, especially considering a mature perspective is often a skewed one.

Stygian wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again.... I simply don't put faith in politicians. God tells us not to put faith in anybody but Him. My age also doesn't give anybody an excuse to say I don't have a 'mature perspective' on something, especially considering a mature perspective is often a skewed one.

Stygian, of course we shouldn't have the same kind of faith in politicians that we do in God. But, we still have to put a measure of faith in those we elect to serve us in office. Faith that they will lead us in the right direction. Faith that they will do as they promise. Or maybe confidence is a better word to use. I certainly don't have confidence in either candidate.

RickD wrote:

Stygian wrote:I've said it before and I'll say it again.... I simply don't put faith in politicians. God tells us not to put faith in anybody but Him. My age also doesn't give anybody an excuse to say I don't have a 'mature perspective' on something, especially considering a mature perspective is often a skewed one.

Stygian, of course we shouldn't have the same kind of faith in politicians that we do in God. But, we still have to put a measure of faith in those we elect to serve us in office. Faith that they will lead us in the right direction. Faith that they will do as they promise. Or maybe confidence is a better word to use. I certainly don't have confidence in either candidate.

I do tend to lack that confidence =D

Well, I'd be glad to get this back on track.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2 ... hick-fil-A

Honestly, as neutral as I have been in the whole Chick-fil-a thing, this made me furious.

William Lane Craig podcast on the Chick-fil-A issue, and gay marriage:http://www.reasonablefaith.org/culture- ... hick-fil-a

He raises some good points that I never really considered. What do you think?