Evidence for God from Science

Thank you, Gman.

Since you are who you are, maybe your comment will have a little more credibility than my comments.

remnant churches of the former Worldwide Church of God, which are the most righteous churches (including like minded sister churches) in the world,

I'm sorry, what ??

Gman wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:Again, I remind everyone that law keeping saves no one, only grace through Jesus Christ is what now saves us. According to Jesus, though, not me or remnant churches of the former Worldwide Church of God, which are the most righteous churches (including like minded sister churches) in the world, according to Jesus parts of the Mosaic laws still need to be strictly obeyed. Failure to obey those laws in a very good manner will not necessarily cost you your salvation, but sloppy obedience could cost you dearly in the competitive "reward" given to you in the next life.

Exactly Wolfgang.. Jesus never under any circumstances said that the laws given in the Tanach are now void. We don't practice them to attain salvation, we practice them because we want to obey.. Out of love.

We and others have tried explaining that G-d's laws are not curses, but unfortunately many have hard wired G-d's laws as being curses... Criticizing G-d for us having to take a day off of work, watching what foods we should eat, celebrating the festivals which beautifully explain Christ's redemptive work. At some point you just have to drop it.. It has to be in the heart and no matter how hard you try to explain it to someone. It just won't sink in.

I would never, under any circumstance say that Jesus, in His earthly minsitry, said that the laws were void. So, you are again building a Strawman. Paul teaches a lot of things that Jesus didn't say as recorded in His earthly ministry. In fact, as Paul says, His ministry was given to him by direct revelation from God and was hidden. Prophecy = revealed. Mystery = Hidden. Paul was addressing Judaizing in the early church, and here we are still dealing with the same things. Solomon was right. Nothing new under the sun.

There is not Temple, no Levites, no Priests. All which are part of the Law and obeying the Law. Under Paul's Gospel we are not called to these things, although I expect God to restore His earthly Kingdom at the end of the age. You won't hear Paul instructing Gentile believers to start going to the temple, get circumcised, keep the festivals, sacrifices, or the Sabbath.

The spirit filled life is the ONLY one that is holy and pleasing to God. It has no basis in any outside standard to be lived up to.

Gman wrote:

Wolfgang wrote:Again, I remind everyone that law keeping saves no one, only grace through Jesus Christ is what now saves us. According to Jesus, though, not me or remnant churches of the former Worldwide Church of God, which are the most righteous churches (including like minded sister churches) in the world, according to Jesus parts of the Mosaic laws still need to be strictly obeyed. Failure to obey those laws in a very good manner will not necessarily cost you your salvation, but sloppy obedience could cost you dearly in the competitive "reward" given to you in the next life.

Exactly Wolfgang.. Jesus never under any circumstances said that the laws given in the Tanach are now void. We don't practice them to attain salvation, we practice them because we want to obey.. Out of love.

We and others have tried explaining that G-d's laws are not curses, but unfortunately many have hard wired G-d's laws as being curses... Criticizing G-d for us having to take a day off of work, watching what foods we should eat, celebrating the festivals which beautifully explain Christ's redemptive work. At some point you just have to drop it.. It has to be in the heart and no matter how hard you try to explain it to someone. It just won't sink in.

Quite so, Gman. I agree. His laws are not curses, at least to us Christians. For the law was set there for men to see their imperfection and incompatibility with God.
Now we live by the Spirit of Grace for the Law of Moses is not a requirement. If one wants to follow the law then let him/her do so and that is a good thing.
Yet, the fact remains clear that Paul attempted to steer us away from Judaizing and I agree with jlay here. Legalism would only make Christ's death for naught! In the case of Salvation, it's like a binary switch: either by grace or off. We can do good works all we can but that has nothing to do with our salvation.

As for those who think that Grace weakens us, it does the opposite and strengthens our cause. The Spirit is what drives us; love is what carries us through the day.
Remember the Fruit of the Spirit.

~Grey

Since AIDS was probably invented by the Lord suddenly and without warning other than the Bible, to punish homosexuals and the promiscuous

This statement is bothersome at best...Our education system at its finest right there.

He can also at any time, without advance notice, create new cooking resistant diseases in the forbidden foods to punish those who ignore His still valid dietary laws, and it might take decades just to identify the new disease and even longer to devise a cure for it, if it even is curable. Eating what is divinely forbidden is risky business at best.

What about the huge number of food-born diseases that have no relation to "forbidden" foods? Germs, bacteria, viruses,fungi, and so on are not simply there to screw with us. God didn't just make them to kill the wicked. And, of course, saying that the only way such things could come into being is through God is also wrong...Believe it or not, it doesn't take that much for a harmless bacteria or fungi to become dangerous to humans through basic biological processes.

To those who were not overly pleased with my AIDS comment, are you saying that venereal diseases are as common among animals as in humans?

Animals have venereal diseases as well. While it is not nearly as closely studied (compared to studies of human STDs), different animal species can contract various types of infections that are transmitted and/or affect sexual organs. Thing is, no, they aren't all the same, and they certainly don't present with necessarily the same symptoms.

Also, it is entirely conceivable that they are less prevalent because they selected against through natural selection...that is, other animals might not mate with an infected animal, and therefore the disease is quickly eliminated from a population. And yes, for the record, that is an evolutionary explanation.

Biblical scoffers mistakenly believe AIDS evolved among monkeys.

No one knows for sure how HIV developed (since, as I'm sure you know, AIDS is just the result of HIV, which is a virus). Yes, it is widely believed that HIV is a mutant form of an SIV (which is a similar virus that affects African monkeys and apes). In a sense, HIV is similar to SIV in the way that bird flu and swine flu and human flu are all related to each other.

I can't say for sure, of course, where AIDS came from, but common horse sense says it was divinely created since evolutionism is false

Yes, indeed, if you have the IQ of a horse that might be logical...But I'm going to leave that be and ask what you mean by "evolutionism." do you completely disregard evolution? Just human evolution? evolution of other animals and plants? To be honest, I get from your statements thus far that a) you know basically nothing about evolution at all, and b)you reject evolution completely, including evolution of microorganisms and disease causing organisms. If that is the case, I can't imagine how you explain disease, since our current understanding of medicine and disease are solely based on the evolution of bacteria, viruses, fungi, our immune system, etc.

jlay wrote:
I would never, under any circumstance say that Jesus, in His earthly minsitry, said that the laws were void. So, you are again building a Strawman. Paul teaches a lot of things that Jesus didn't say as recorded in His earthly ministry. In fact, as Paul says, His ministry was given to him by direct revelation from God and was hidden. Prophecy = revealed. Mystery = Hidden. Paul was addressing Judaizing in the early church, and here we are still dealing with the same things. Solomon was right. Nothing new under the sun.

There is not Temple, no Levites, no Priests. All which are part of the Law and obeying the Law. Under Paul's Gospel we are not called to these things, although I expect God to restore His earthly Kingdom at the end of the age. You won't hear Paul instructing Gentile believers to start going to the temple, get circumcised, keep the festivals, sacrifices, or the Sabbath.

The spirit filled life is the ONLY one that is holy and pleasing to God. It has no basis in any outside standard to be lived up to.

Again... You have completely divorced yourself from G-d's laws, therefore you have no working definition of what sin or love is... You talk about spirit filled life which could mean anything... There are demons in the spirit filled life too... So you just fill in the blanks what following G-d is the way you want.

About circumcision, right now a circumcision can be accomplished through the circumcision of the heart. But it will come back in the millennium Ezekiel 44:9-11. Also the first Christian believers continued to use the temple as a house of prayer. Even after Yeshua ascended to heaven.

Luke 24:52-53

52 Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God.

Acts 2:46
46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart.

Acts 3:1
1Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour.

Acts 22:17
17 “When I returned to Jerusalem and was praying at the temple, I fell into a trance

Acts 24:11-12
11 You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship. 12 My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city.

Acts 24:17-18
17 “After an absence of several years, I came to Jerusalem to bring my people gifts for the poor and to present offerings. 18 I was ceremonially clean when they found me in the temple courts doing this. There was no crowd with me, nor was I involved in any disturbance.

Paul it seems was never against the temple, even after Christ died.

Acts 25:8
8 Then Paul made his defense: “I have done nothing wrong against the Jewish law or against the temple or against Caesar.”

GreyDeSilvisanctis wrote:
Quite so, Gman. I agree. His laws are not curses, at least to us Christians. For the law was set there for men to see their imperfection and incompatibility with God.
Now we live by the Spirit of Grace for the Law of Moses is not a requirement. If one wants to follow the law then let him/her do so and that is a good thing.
Yet, the fact remains clear that Paul attempted to steer us away from Judaizing and I agree with jlay here. Legalism would only make Christ's death for naught! In the case of Salvation, it's like a binary switch: either by grace or off. We can do good works all we can but that has nothing to do with our salvation.

As for those who think that Grace weakens us, it does the opposite and strengthens our cause. The Spirit is what drives us; love is what carries us through the day.
Remember the Fruit of the Spirit.

~Grey

Yes.. Well we don't follow G-d's laws or Torah to attain salvation.... That is only attained through Christ. But we still follow Torah but not out of legalism... Why? Out of love and obedience to Christ. Also keep in mind that we won't be able to follow all of Torah because some is written for men, some for women, some are for priests, etc.. Therefore we only follow the ones that apply to us. It's not Judaizing... It's Christianizing..

Do we practice Christmas? How is that not legalism then too?

Gman wrote:
But we still follow Torah but not out of legalism... Why? Out of love and obedience to Christ. Also keep in mind that we won't be able to follow all of Torah because some is written for men, some for women, some are for priests, etc.. Therefore we only follow the ones that apply to us.

So lemme get this straight...We need to follow the law in order to be obedient to Christ. But since we can't follow all of the law, we only follow the laws that we feel apply to us.

James 2:10 says:For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So, since we can't keep the whole law because some of it doesn't apply to us, we are guilty of breaking the entire law. Yet, picking and choosing which laws apply to us, and which ones we want to obey, that is obedience to Christ?

Gman, are you sure that's the story you want to stick to?

I think that Gman means that we are to follow only the Laws that directly apply to us.
Laws oriented towards women do not apply to men, Laws oriented towards the priestly class to not apply to the layman.

I think that Messianic believe that any OT Law that was NOT directly "revoked" by Jesus or an apostle is still valid ( Hence circumcision is no longer required), yes?

PaulSacramento wrote:I think that Gman means that we are to follow only the Laws that directly apply to us.
Laws oriented towards women do not apply to men, Laws oriented towards the priestly class to not apply to the layman.

What about laws that only applied to the nation of Israel? Do we follow those? For example, the Sabbath laws.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think that Gman means that we are to follow only the Laws that directly apply to us.
Laws oriented towards women do not apply to men, Laws oriented towards the priestly class to not apply to the layman.

What about laws that only applied to the nation of Israel? Do we follow those? For example, the Sabbath laws.

Not touching that with a 10 ft dreidel !

PaulSacramento wrote:

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I think that Gman means that we are to follow only the Laws that directly apply to us.
Laws oriented towards women do not apply to men, Laws oriented towards the priestly class to not apply to the layman.

What about laws that only applied to the nation of Israel? Do we follow those? For example, the Sabbath laws.

Not touching that with a 10 ft dreidel !

Exactly what I was thinking, minus the dreidel...

SB

One quick question for the Sabbatarians here: If a Sabbatarian lives in say, Alaska, at the Arctic circle, how does he observe the Sabbath? In the summer, the sun doesn't set. So sunset to sunset, is not possible in one day. Do those unlucky Sabbatarians have no sabbath? And in the winter, the sun doesn't rise for a long period of time. Is that extra Sabbath rest?

I guess the Soup Nazi in Alaska would say, "You want Sabbath rest? NO SUNSET FOR YOU!!!

Gman wrote:Again... You have completely divorced yourself from G-d's laws, therefore you have no working definition of what sin or love is... You talk about spirit filled life which could mean anything... There are demons in the spirit filled life too... So you just fill in the blanks what following G-d is the way you want.

G, first of all this makes no sense. Divorced myself from God's law? God's Law (written down or written on the heart) serves a good function. As Paul points out the Law shows us our sinful nature. Romans 7:7. It maginfies the corruption of the human heart and it's need of saving. Please tell me how that is being divorced from the Law?
Your part about demons is just,...well, insulting. Paul expounds on walking in the Spirit. So, if you think I mean spirit filled "divorced" from the teaching that Paul covers, then you obviously have ignored my body of work here on G&S and have decided to take a on dirty debate tactics. I imagine your "working definition" is just some term you picked up and enjoy using.

About circumcision, right now a circumcision can be accomplished through the circumcision of the heart. But it will come back in the millennium Ezekiel 44:9-11. Also the first Christian believers continued to use the temple as a house of prayer. Even after Yeshua ascended to heaven.

Few things I take acception with here. Paul's comments about circumsicion are referencing of a term already used in the OT. Deut. 30:6
Also, when you say first "Christian" beleivers used the Temple. You are using a term that those people wouldn't have even used. The Little Flock in Jerusalem were Jews, and they continued going to the Temple, because, well, they were Jews continuing in their Jewish plan that their Jewish Messiah had commissioned them to do. So quoting those scriptures doesn't deal or contradict anything I am stating. Not in the least.

Regarding Paul's visit. It is very important in the timeline. I don't have the time to go through the whole chronology of Acts, but Acts does present a transition. As you quoted in Acts 22, Paul had a vision where God said, ‘Go; I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’ (Acts 22:21)
If you go back to Chapter 21 you will see the conflict and the differences in the message.
Jewish believers report of the message to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. (Acts 21:20)
And here is the conflict: "They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs." Does Paul deny this? No. In fact, a compromise is made. our decision that they should abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality.” (Acts 21:25)

At this time, there is a church in Jerusalem. Based on the report it is growing. There is a finctioning temple, and the Apostles are preaching the same Gospel of the Kingdom. Paul, obviously is teaching something different. So much that it caused his arrest while in Jerusalem. It's possible that the controversy is over what he wrote in Galatians, but that is speculation.

But, they claim that Paul follows the law and require him to submit to a vow to show himself a good Jew. As far as Paul's practice, he answers here. "To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law." (1 Cor. 9:20)

That is all I have time for now.