Problem of evil

[MAGSolo]

A good god would not allow evil to persist. Its really that simple. If you had a policeman that saw a woman being raped and then murdered and just sat by and watched and did nothing to stop the rapist, under what circumstances would you consider that officer a good person? Do you believe that people are judged by their actions and deeds? When I say judged I mean by other people. How do we determine on a day to day basis if any particular person is a good person or an evil person?

What is your criteria for judging an act good?

Those werent rhetorical questions. It would be nice if you would answer them

How can I answer them if you don't help me to understand your concept of what is Good and what is evil?

Why dont we talk about your concept of good and evil since my questions pertain to you. Id like an actual answer to my police officer question please. Would that officer fit YOUR notion of what it means to YOU to be good

[PaulSacramento]

A good god would not allow evil to persist. Its really that simple. If you had a policeman that saw a woman being raped and then murdered and just sat by and watched and did nothing to stop the rapist, under what circumstances would you consider that officer a good person? Do you believe that people are judged by their actions and deeds? When I say judged I mean by other people. How do we determine on a day to day basis if any particular person is a good person or an evil person?

What is your criteria for judging an act good?

Those werent rhetorical questions. It would be nice if you would answer them

How can I answer them if you don't help me to understand your concept of what is Good and what is evil?

Why dont we talk about your concept of good and evil since my questions pertain to you. Id like an actual answer to my police officer question please. Would that officer fit YOUR notion of what it means to YOU to be good

Well since we are talking about a HUMAN I can most certainly judge his act to be good or bad under the context of what I know of humans.
If a human saw an act that is typically viewed by humans as wrong and could stop it and did not stop it, I would say that he was not good by human standards.
Yes.
Now, since I answered your question, please answer mine:
What is your criteria for judging good?

[Byblos]

So MAGSolo,

A God who is good, and omniscient and all-powerful would not allow evil. So this all-knowing God would know whatever was going to happen before it happened, correct?

So in your view, an all-powerful, all-knowing God should prevent any evil, or pain from happening before it actually happens? Is that what you're saying?

I wouldnt say any pain but when a nutcase is about to go shoot up a classroom of defenseless 6 year old kids, a mother of three goes to the grocery and gets abducted, raped, beat to a pulp, then strangled to death or when a 3 year old child gets cooked in an oven by his mother http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/03/ ... with_k.php I would expect an all-powerful and good God to do something to prevent it. Im not saying God needs to step in before anyone ever stubs their toe on a piece of furniture. Ive been robbed at gunpoint before and while it sucked, it wasnt something I was questioning Gods existence over, but stuff like this http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3125964/ yeah, I dont think its too unfair to question how an all-powerful and supposedly good God would allow stuff like this to happen on a regular basis

- If God had stopped the Newtown massacre you'd still be arguing that he should've stopped Columbine.
- If God had stopped the Columbine, you'd still be arguing that he should've stopped 9/11.
- If He had stopped 9/11, you'd still be arguing that he should've stopped Oklahoma City.
- If He had stopped Oklahoma City, you'd still be arguing that he should've stopped the Holocaust.
- If not the Holocaust, you'd still be arguing WWi, or the bubonic plague, or any other, or the one before that, or the one before that, or even the one before that.
- You won't be satisfied unless and until ALL pain is removed. In other words, you're looking for a perfect world with no pain and no free will. You want to fashion a god of your own choosing.

You are incapable of comprehending.

[RickD]

So MAGSolo,

A God who is good, and omniscient and all-powerful would not allow evil. So this all-knowing God would know whatever was going to happen before it happened, correct?

So in your view, an all-powerful, all-knowing God should prevent any evil, or pain from happening before it actually happens? Is that what you're saying?

I wouldnt say any pain but when a nutcase is about to go shoot up a classroom of defenseless 6 year old kids, a mother of three goes to the grocery and gets abducted, raped, beat to a pulp, then strangled to death or when a 3 year old child gets cooked in an oven by his mother http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/03/ ... with_k.php I would expect an all-powerful and good God to do something to prevent it. Im not saying God needs to step in before anyone ever stubs their toe on a piece of furniture. Ive been robbed at gunpoint before and while it sucked, it wasnt something I was questioning Gods existence over, but stuff like this http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3125964/ yeah, I dont think its too unfair to question how an all-powerful and supposedly good God would allow stuff like this to happen on a regular basis

MAGSolo, I don't think it's "unfair" to question God in these circumstances either. Whether you realize it or not, your arguing against evil is actually an argument for God. Think about this. How can you believe something is objectively evil if there wasn't something objectively good to judge evil against. Like, how can one know if a dollar bill is counterfeit unless one has a genuine dollar bill to compare it with?

[PaulSacramento]

I think it is clear that MAGSolo doesn't view the argument for free will as a valid one.

[RickD]

I think it is clear that MAGSolo doesn't view the argument for free will as a valid one.

Maybe MAGSolo is a 5 point Calvinist.

[MAGSolo]

Well since we are talking about a HUMAN I can most certainly judge his act to be good or bad under the context of what I know of humans.
If a human saw an act that is typically viewed by humans as wrong and could stop it and did not stop it, I would say that he was not good by human standards.
Yes.
Now, since I answered your question, please answer mine:
What is your criteria for judging good?

my criteria for judging good is this; you are judged by your actions and this is mostly pertaining to how you treat other people. So to me a good person is one that treats others well, does not seek to do others harm, seeks to prevent suffering when able, and tries to help others in need when able. That is my criteria for any conscious, self-aware entity.

So if a human that could prevent evil and doesnt does not meet your standards of being good, how can God refrain from preventing evil and yet still meet your standard of being good. Im confused as to why you have different criteria of goodness for God and humans?

[MAGSolo]

So MAGSolo,

A God who is good, and omniscient and all-powerful would not allow evil. So this all-knowing God would know whatever was going to happen before it happened, correct?

So in your view, an all-powerful, all-knowing God should prevent any evil, or pain from happening before it actually happens? Is that what you're saying?

I wouldnt say any pain but when a nutcase is about to go shoot up a classroom of defenseless 6 year old kids, a mother of three goes to the grocery and gets abducted, raped, beat to a pulp, then strangled to death or when a 3 year old child gets cooked in an oven by his mother http://www.truecrimereport.com/2011/03/ ... with_k.php I would expect an all-powerful and good God to do something to prevent it. Im not saying God needs to step in before anyone ever stubs their toe on a piece of furniture. Ive been robbed at gunpoint before and while it sucked, it wasnt something I was questioning Gods existence over, but stuff like this http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/3125964/ yeah, I dont think its too unfair to question how an all-powerful and supposedly good God would allow stuff like this to happen on a regular basis

MAGSolo, I don't think it's "unfair" to question God in these circumstances either. Whether you realize it or not, your arguing against evil is actually an argument for God. Think about this. How can you believe something is objectively evil if there wasn't something objectively good to judge evil against. Like, how can one know if a dollar bill is counterfeit unless one has a genuine dollar bill to compare it with?

That question makes absolutely no sense. I think its pretty easy to know if something is objectively evil. Would you want that deed to happen to you? Would you ever want to be raped, murdered, robbed, or tortured?

[MAGSolo]

I think it is clear that MAGSolo doesn't view the argument for free will as a valid one.

its not a valid argument. Humans having free will does not mean that God has to just let them do whatever they want. God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it. They still had free will to do what they wanted, God just stopped them before they were able to do so. I dont see why God has to let people hurt other people just because thats what they want to do. Lets take the case where the mother cooked her baby in the oven. Are you saying that God watched her cook her baby in an oven simply because its what she wanted to do? God said "I can stop this baby from being cooked to death, but Im not going to because thats what this lady wants to do"? And this meets your criteria for being good?

[RickD]

MAGSolo wrote:
That question makes absolutely no sense. I think its pretty easy to know if something is objectively evil. Would you want that deed to happen to you? Would you ever want to be raped, murdered, robbed, or tortured?

Actually, those that enjoy sadism and masochism would answer, "yes".

PaulSacramento wrote:I think it is clear that MAGSolo doesn't view the argument for free will as a valid one.

MAGSolo wrote:
its not a valid argument. Humans having free will does not mean that God has to just let them do whatever they want. God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it. They still had free will to do what they wanted, God just stopped them before they were able to do so. I dont see why God has to let people hurt other people just because thats what they want to do. Lets take the case where the mother cooked her baby in the oven. Are you saying that God watched her cook her baby in an oven simply because its what she wanted to do? God said "I can stop this baby from being cooked to death, but Im not going to because thats what this lady wants to do"? And this meets your criteria for being good?

So, God is not loving and good because He allows evil. But, God would be loving and good if He would " very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it."?
So, let me get this straight. You're saying God is not good because He allows people to do "evil" things to other people. But, God would be good and loving if He just killed those who were going to inflict "evil" upon others?

[PaulSacramento]

Well since we are talking about a HUMAN I can most certainly judge his act to be good or bad under the context of what I know of humans.
If a human saw an act that is typically viewed by humans as wrong and could stop it and did not stop it, I would say that he was not good by human standards.
Yes.
Now, since I answered your question, please answer mine:
What is your criteria for judging good?

my criteria for judging good is this; you are judged by your actions and this is mostly pertaining to how you treat other people. So to me a good person is one that treats others well, does not seek to do others harm, seeks to prevent suffering when able, and tries to help others in need when able. That is my criteria for any conscious, self-aware entity.

So if a human that could prevent evil and doesnt does not meet your standards of being good, how can God refrain from preventing evil and yet still meet your standard of being good. Im confused as to why you have different criteria of goodness for God and humans?

So, to be good is to prevent evil and to do no harm, to prevent suffering, to help others , yes?

[Byblos]

God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it.

[PaulSacramento]

God could very easily just kill anyone with serious intentions to harm someone else the moment they were about to do it.

Yeah, that is a heck of a statement...

[1over137]

lover I would say that if God were to rebuke me for questioning how he can allow evil to exist and persist then I would be very happy because then at least I would have evidence that he exist and then I would have faith that he said some good reason for allowing evil to persist. Currently though I think evil is very strong evidence that the biblical God of Christianity does not exist. I think if there is a god that it is either completely indifferent or to human suffering or completely powerless to do anything about it.

MagSolo, now is Feb 25 and on Feb 16 I wrote you this in the thread "Why am I here" that you started.

And I would create heaven for people. Mag, we are on earth now, we are sinners, there is evil and there is suffering. And I view suffering on this earth almost nothing comparable to joy in heaven. Furthermore, knowing the evil and its causes make us appreciate the good and long for it. Do you appreciate, Mag, all God has done for us? And do you want to live in a new world where there is no suffering?

Have you read it? And if so, why you have not continued the debate?

Now, you entered this thread and moreless keep posting the same stuff.

What I see is that you basically wants Heaven to be already on this Earth.

Further more, your post is derailing this thread. We do not debate existence of God here. So, stop derailing this thread, and establish a new one or post in a more proper one. For that, please use the forum "Questions for Christians". This forum we are in now is "Christian Theology" and we do not debate here existence of God and personal emotions.

We will not ban you (at least not for now), but I can restrict your rights and forbid you to post in "Christian Theology" forum. It's not that I punish you, it's that I protect other posters from derailing their threads. It's not about banning, it's about protecting.

Think about it.

All: I would appreciate if you do not respond to Mag's emotional posts here.

[B. W.]

Well since we are talking about a HUMAN I can most certainly judge his act to be good or bad under the context of what I know of humans.
If a human saw an act that is typically viewed by humans as wrong and could stop it and did not stop it, I would say that he was not good by human standards.
Yes.
Now, since I answered your question, please answer mine:
What is your criteria for judging good?

my criteria for judging good is this; you are judged by your actions and this is mostly pertaining to how you treat other people. So to me a good person is one that treats others well, does not seek to do others harm, seeks to prevent suffering when able, and tries to help others in need when able. That is my criteria for any conscious, self-aware entity.

So if a human that could prevent evil and doesnt does not meet your standards of being good, how can God refrain from preventing evil and yet still meet your standard of being good. Im confused as to why you have different criteria of goodness for God and humans?

.. because if God removed evil from your own heart, Mag, against your own will, you would cry foul - that's not fair...

God is that absolutely just and right to all - even you to permit you to reason on your own. Think about it...

How about it? Would you like malice/evil/ from your heart?
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