Evidence for God from Science

Kur,
Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Repentance
Found this great quote while reading John MacArthur’s excellent book, The Gospel According to Jesus:

Repentance means that you realize that you are a guilty, vile sinner in the presence of God, that you deserve the wrath and punishment of God, that you are hell-bound. It means that you begin to realize that this thing called sin is in you, that you long to get rid of it, and that you turn your back on it in every shape and form. You renounce the world whatever the cost, the world in its mind and outlook as well as its practice, and you deny yourself, and take up the cross and go after Christ. Your nearest and dearest, and the whole world, may call you a fool, or say you have religious mania. You may have to suffer financially, but it makes no difference. That is repentance.

Amen. Thank God for the gift of repentance (Acts 11:18)!

zacchaeus wrote:Kur,
Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Repentance
Found this great quote while reading John MacArthur’s excellent book, The Gospel According to Jesus:

Repentance means that you realize that you are a guilty, vile sinner in the presence of God, that you deserve the wrath and punishment of God, that you are hell-bound. It means that you begin to realize that this thing called sin is in you, that you long to get rid of it, and that you turn your back on it in every shape and form. You renounce the world whatever the cost, the world in its mind and outlook as well as its practice, and you deny yourself, and take up the cross and go after Christ. Your nearest and dearest, and the whole world, may call you a fool, or say you have religious mania. You may have to suffer financially, but it makes no difference. That is repentance.

Amen. Thank God for the gift of repentance (Acts 11:18)!

Zacchaeus,

Repentance in Acts 11:18, simply means a change of mind. The Greek word is metanoia

The definition of repentance that you and MacArthur are talking about, is the English word. The text you used, means something different.

If one needs to repent and believe in Christ for salvation, which definition do you think is meant?
1) the biblical definition, metanoia, which simply means a change of mind. In other words, repent(change your mind about who Christ is, and what he has done) and believe in him.

Or

2)turn your back on sin, renounce the "world", deny yourself, and take up the cross(whatever that means).

If we are talking about repentance being needed for salvation, Doesn't #2 sound an awful lot like a works based salvation?

In #1, repentance is part of believing in Christ. When one repents(changes one's mind about who Christ is, and what he did) and believes in him, one has everlasting life.

Thoughts?

I just found the quote interesting... Never heard of the guy, apparently haven't done my due diligence to really read everything said in this thread- I created no less.

As you've helped me in recent years past with the revelation of Grace, I don't see a distinct difference in the word 'repent' as its full understanding seems to encompass a 1)changed mind 2)belief 3)consciousness 4)turning around and all of the above... In which all four do seemingly relate to and correlate with our relationship to Christ and with how we regard sin. I don't see 'repentance' as a repeated necessary thing. I do, however, see us 'repenting' inadvertently if we coin the term, every time we do change our minds, or turn around.

If I'm on my way to a location down the road, and I change my mind, I also turn around- go back home. That by definition could mean I repented... Of what? Whatever the context.

But, whats your thoughts of scripture that employs us to...
"Repent and be baptized... He will forgive us".

I'm sure it's simple.

We never ask forgiveness... But we do repent (Once). But Jesus forgives, and I believe He withholds forgiveness from unbelievers, yet if one asks forgiveness inspite of repentance or not then we are to forgive. In this case the repenter receives the forgiveness. So maybe it simply means " believe ". But would it be bad to ask forgiveness, or repent in a manner that's showing remorse of sin, not in regards to salvation?

What are your thoughts of the quote above?

zacchaeus wrote:I just found the quote interesting... Never heard of the guy, apparently haven't done my due diligence to really read everything said in this thread- I created no less.

As you've helped me in recent years past with the revelation of Grace, I don't see a distinct difference in the word 'repent' as its full understanding seems to encompass a 1)changed mind 2)belief 3)consciousness 4)turning around and all of the above... In which all four do seemingly relate to and correlate with our relationship to Christ and with how we regard sin. I don't see 'repentance' as a repeated necessary thing. I do, however, see us 'repenting' inadvertently if we coin the term, every time we do change our minds, or turn around.

If I'm on my way to a location down the road, and I change my mind, I also turn around- go back home. That by definition could mean I repented... Of what? Whatever the context.

But, whats your thoughts of scripture that employs us to...
"Repent and be baptized... He will forgive us".

I'm sure it's simple.

We never ask forgiveness... But we do repent (Once). But Jesus forgives, and I believe He withholds forgiveness from unbelievers, yet if one asks forgiveness inspite of repentance or not then we are to forgive. In this case the repenter receives the forgiveness. So maybe it simply means " believe ". But would it be bad to ask forgiveness, or repent in a manner that's showing remorse of sin, not in regards to salvation?

What are your thoughts of the quote above?

Zacchaeus,

Regarding Acts 2:38, I'll let you read these study notes on the subject. You'll have to scroll down to Acts 2:38, to see it.

It's kinda long, but it goes into detail about the verse, and gives 3 different interpretations that may make sense.

What do you think?

zacchaeus wrote:Kur,
Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Repentance
Found this great quote while reading John MacArthur’s excellent book, The Gospel According to Jesus:

Repentance means that you realize that you are a guilty, vile sinner in the presence of God, that you deserve the wrath and punishment of God, that you are hell-bound. It means that you begin to realize that this thing called sin is in you, that you long to get rid of it, and that you turn your back on it in every shape and form. You renounce the world whatever the cost, the world in its mind and outlook as well as its practice, and you deny yourself, and take up the cross and go after Christ. Your nearest and dearest, and the whole world, may call you a fool, or say you have religious mania. You may have to suffer financially, but it makes no difference. That is repentance.

Amen. Thank God for the gift of repentance (Acts 11:18)!

No, that isn't repentance and no where did Christ say that is what ALL have to do to be saved.
Note that Christ did not renounce the world, He saved it.
The apostles did not renounce the world, they lived and worked in it and preached the Gospel of Christ which was that the kingdom of God IS HERE.
No man can be rid of sin or even overcome sin without the HS and EVEN THEN, sin is always with them.
Only Christ was without Sin, only GOD is without sin.
All others have sin and can't get rid of it.

Note the wording in that quote and read the Gospels and ask yourself:
Is there anywhere in the words of Christ that speak THAT way?
Did Christ ever say ( was recorded saying) that we are "VILE SINNERS", that we are "HELL BOUND", that we deserve the "wrath of God" in such a cold and loveless way?
Or did He say:

John 3:16 “God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”

Matthew 5:43-45 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.”

Mark 12:30-31 “And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

1 John 4:16-18
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

And how does God love us?

Ephesians 2:4-5 - But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, evenwhen we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved ...

Psalm 86:15 - But you, O Lord, are a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness.

Zephaniah 3:17 - The LORD your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.


And so much more...
God values us:

Romans 5:8 ESV
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

Matthew 6:25-34 ESV
“Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. .

Jeremiah 29:11 ESV
For I know the plans I have for you, declares the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.


And what does God give us? all that we need and in particular something we tend to forget:

2 Corinthians 12:9 ESV
But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Rick you don't agree with what I said?

zacchaeus wrote:Rick you don't agree with what I said?

If you mean what you said here:

zacchaeus wrote:
I just found the quote interesting... Never heard of the guy, apparently haven't done my due diligence to really read everything said in this thread- I created no less.

As you've helped me in recent years past with the revelation of Grace, I don't see a distinct difference in the word 'repent' as its full understanding seems to encompass a 1)changed mind 2)belief 3)consciousness 4)turning around and all of the above... In which all four do seemingly relate to and correlate with our relationship to Christ and with how we regard sin. I don't see 'repentance' as a repeated necessary thing. I do, however, see us 'repenting' inadvertently if we coin the term, every time we do change our minds, or turn around.

If I'm on my way to a location down the road, and I change my mind, I also turn around- go back home. That by definition could mean I repented... Of what? Whatever the context.

But, whats your thoughts of scripture that employs us to...
"Repent and be baptized... He will forgive us".

I'm sure it's simple.

We never ask forgiveness... But we do repent (Once). But Jesus forgives, and I believe He withholds forgiveness from unbelievers, yet if one asks forgiveness inspite of repentance or not then we are to forgive. In this case the repenter receives the forgiveness. So maybe it simply means " believe ". But would it be bad to ask forgiveness, or repent in a manner that's showing remorse of sin, not in regards to salvation?

What are your thoughts of the quote above?

I think I agree overall, with what you're saying. I just wanted to make the distinction between the biblical repentance, metanoia, and the English word "repent". The English word means to turn from sin, and/or feel deep regret.

I believe Christians should turn from sin. I believe we should feel deep regret for our sins.

But, as far as the kind of repentance regarding salvation, it just means a change of mind.

So, to be clear, I'm not advocating against a believer feeling remorse, or turning from sin. I'm just saying that that kind of repentance isn't necessary for salvation.

Does that make any sense?

Simply belief?

Please read this link as it explains what Repent means much better than I can:

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Holida ... huvah.html

From the link, you will see how the LXX used the Greek words used for repentance from the Hebrew is the best way to understand how to discern the truth: that without thee first being a change of mind there cannot be a change in actions.

Zac, your illustration about the driving and changing your mind involves a change in direct is good. The Greek based system defines a change of mind without changing directions as possible and mostly in the modern cycle of theologyn this is what is implied that repentance, a change in ones mind, does not need anychange in direction. That idea is foreign in the Hebrew mindset and what the Jewish believer writers of the New Testament meant by repentance.

The Hebrew idea involves: changing the mind by turning to God to help change ones direction in life, That is the simplest way I can define what repentance means by studying the Greek words translated repent in the LXX from the Hebrew in the OT and NT. Just as the article linked to mentions.
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zacchaeus wrote:Simply belief?

Repent isn't belief. Repenting(changing one's mind from unbelief) and believing/trusting.

And as B. W. said, first comes the change of mind, and trusting Christ. Then that should lead to a turning to God, and away from sin.

zacchaeus wrote:Kur,
Martyn Lloyd-Jones on Repentance
Found this great quote while reading John MacArthur’s excellent book, The Gospel According to Jesus:

Repentance means that you realize that you are a guilty, vile sinner in the presence of God, that you deserve the wrath and punishment of God, that you are hell-bound. It means that you begin to realize that this thing called sin is in you, that you long to get rid of it, and that you turn your back on it in every shape and form. You renounce the world whatever the cost, the world in its mind and outlook as well as its practice, and you deny yourself, and take up the cross and go after Christ. Your nearest and dearest, and the whole world, may call you a fool, or say you have religious mania. You may have to suffer financially, but it makes no difference. That is repentance.

Amen. Thank God for the gift of repentance (Acts 11:18)!

Hi Zac,

Often what we believe can come out wrong and be easily misunderstood as an imbalanced view. Nonetheless, I'm going to make some general comments here in response to MacArthur's comments as well as I guess your original opening post.

Martin Lloyd Jones was very much a reformed theologian and Calvinist at heart. For some here, "Calvinist" is a dirty word. But, the one thing Jones did understand was the Old Covenant of Law and New Covenant of Grace. MacArthur is meant to be a Calvinist, but I guess there are degrees of such because I find some things he says suspect.

Be careful with any Christian who, or theology which tries, to place you under the yoke that Christ freed you from. (Gal 5:1; Gal 5:3-4) You've been saved by grace through your faith in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:8) That is, if you believe in your heart that Christ is Lord and stand upon the Way that reconciles you with God (Romans 10:9-10).

Your spirit, your heart is what God wants and is where the transaction if you will takes place and we are transformed. Your heart is where the change is needed. The Law and our acts only condemn and kill us. (2 Corinthians 3:6) We're -- our actions are -- like filthy rags before God, even the morally best of us, in our striving to be good. (Isaiah 64:6; Romans 10:10).

There is the Old Covenant of the Law, which God made with Israel and Judah -- a people God chose to be His own and through which the Christ would be born. However, even God's people broke the covenant by transgressing the law over and over again. While God continued striving with them the prophet Jeremiah spoke of a New Covenant of the Heart,

• 31 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”

So then, if you've entered into the New Covenant -- you know that you love Christ and that you love God -- then the good news is that Christ has come and fulfilled the requirements of the Law for you, for all of us. Why then, try to walk back under the yoke of the Old Covenant which no one except Christ could fulfill?

All that remains is for each of us to come as we are, as we were to freely stand under God's Grace via faith in Christ thereby entering into a free relationship with God. Such isn't based upon our action, but our heart and as such yearning to be with God and for God to be in our lives: "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery." (Gal 5:1)

Don't look back to the Old Covenant, just focus on being thankful to Christ, real with God with who you are and where you are at, and over the course of your life I'm certain you'll be transformed and conformed more and more to Christ.