Bible Teachings or Traditions of Men?

[ClassicalTeacher]

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teachings of Trinity and hellfire? If so, present the scriptures by giving Bible book, chapter, and verse and also explain why you believe the scripture you present is talking about Trinity or literal hellfire.

Google is your friend....

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I don't follow. I didn't ask anybody to tell me about Google. I asked for scriptures from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, that is supposed to support the dogmas of a triune god and literal hellfire torment. I assume you can produce verses from the Bible, since apparently you believe in both dogmas? If so, please present your first four verses. After we have discussed the first four verses, you may then present another four verses.

2. Why are these teachings found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? For instance there were pagan trinities at least 200 years before Jesus came to the earth as a human.

No, the Trinity is NOT like ANY "pagan" notion of 3 governing/supreme gods.

Actually, Christendom's trinity is simply another version of the pagan examples that I provided in my OP.

I will address the remainder of your post at another time.

No, it isn't and IF you did any research into it you would know that.

You'll never get an answer from her. She uses this "I will address the blah-blah-blah at another time" all the time and just ignores the issue. She is not here for discussion--she is here to INSTRUCT us on our mistaken beliefs....

[ClassicalTeacher]

FACT #2: The Christianized Romans came from a long history of polytheism (worship of many false gods). It was therefore a simply matter for them to convert their pagan ideas into a "Christian" version of trinity. So while the pagan versions of trinity are of three separate gods, Christendom's version is of three separate "persons" combined into a single "Godhead."

BTW: I notice you have not presented any scriptures from the Bible to prove Christendom's version of trinity as being a Bible teaching.

Please provide PROOF of your claims...that is, PROOF that is not jw propaganda.

And, I am going to go over to RO and copy all of the Scriptures that you were provided to answer this same question about the doctrine of the Trinity. These good people here shouldn't have to go through all of that nonsense to placate you. I'll be back....

[ClassicalTeacher]

ok...here goes. This was provided to alter as biblical proof of the doctrine of the Trinity. This man is an exceptional Christian man, btw.

•Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

•1 Cor. 12:4-6, "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons."

•2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

•Eph. 4:4-7, "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift."

•1 Pet. 1:2, "according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure."

•Jude 20-21, "But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith; praying in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life."

And more from one of the "trinitarian" mods:

A2E, I'm guessing that your OP is not of your own creation, but is from a tool supplied to Jehovah's witnesses by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, either online or on a CD (or DVD). Edit: a subsequent post by A2E indicated that this of mine guess is incorrect, and that A2E's OP is of her composition. I pointed out a couple of historical problems in it, and could point out more (e.g. the fact that by the time of Jesus, Babylon was part of the Parthian Empire, whose religion was Zoroastrianism rather than the Babylonian pantheon; the Parthian Empire and Rome were bitter enemies, so its cultural influence on the Roman Empire would not have been welcome or great). And less than honest, as I also pointed out, in its false analogy between the various pagan triads of gods among within much larger polytheistic pantheons and the Christian teaching of one God of three persons who are God. Of course, the phrase, “Questions for Discussion”, is a near give-away as to your OP's source. The questions are quite tendentious, a couple incorporating poor reasoning (which I will point out), but will be useful for my further response.

5. Are the words "Trinity" and "Godhead" in the Bible? If so, were those words part of the original writings? No. Neither are the words “Theocracy” (Theocratic), “Organization”, “Class” (Matthew 24 and Luke 12), or “Kingdom Publisher” (e.g. the WTB&TS 1945 book, Theocratic Aid to Kingdom Publishers). These are all terms in common use among Jehovah's witnesses – currently or formerly – and they are not found in the Bible. So this question is just poor reasoning. Your response, were I to challenge you to point out where in your NWT “Theocracy”, etc., would/should be that the idea is taught in the Scriptures. Very well. My response to this question #5 is that the concept of the Trinity is taught in the Scriptures.

3. If the Trinity is a Bible teaching, why is it that Jesus and his apostles who followed him around never taught anyone about the Trinity? That Jesus and the Apostles didn't use the word “Trinity” doesn't mean anything, as explained above. Question #s 3 and 5 are cheap, deceptive, gotcha questions to prey on those who are less than knowledgeable in Christian teaching. To put it nicely.

2. Why is it that trinity is found in pagan/false religions that never worshipped the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible? ... (ellipsis to improve visual clarity) As I noted last evening, triads of gods among much larger pagan pantheons are not at all analogous to the Christian teaching of the Trinity - one God of three persons who are God. It's an apples-pineapples comparison, a dishonest straw man argument.

4. How is it that the Trinity teaching did not become "Christian" teaching until the Christianized Romans (who later called themselves Roman Catholics) copied the philosophy from pagan/false religions ... Since the premise of this question has not been established – that the Trinity teaching was copied from paganism – (and I will show it to be false, below) this is a, “Have you stopped beating your wife?” type of dishonest question. To put it nicely.

1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of Trinity? If so, quote up to four … This is the one question of the five not based on poor reasoning, a dishonest straw man argument, or an unproven and false premise. I used an ellipsis to cut down on visual distraction (the word “brevity” would not be apt to describe my response, obviously).

Here's my premise: the Bible teaches that there is one God; the New Testament of the Bible identifies three persons as being God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Since you and I would agree that the Father is identified as God, I will skip showing that. On the other hand, I won't limit myself to just four Scriptures. That limitation is necessary for a group discussion such as that Watchtower tool envisions. While practical in a group context, that limitation is neither necessary nor desirable here.

The Son Identified as God (selected from this blog post):

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:3, ESV; The Word took part in creating everything that was created)
For some reason, the NWT still hasn't done (I checked) to John 1:3 what it did to Colossians 1:16-17, where the word "other" is inserted 4 times into the English text, despite not being there at all in the Greek text.

But of the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom. (Hebrews 1:8, ESV)

Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58, ESV)
I am well aware of what the NWT did to this verse. If you go to your Kingdom Hall library and find that it has copies of the various editions of the NWT all the way back to the 1950 New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, you will see that the "reason" for the NWT's mistranslation of this passage changes from edition to edition. If it was properly translated, the reason would not need to change. As a further exercise, find a concordance to the Greek text of the New Testament and look up all (well, to be practical, maybe 10 or 20 or 30) the times Jesus said "I am", ejgw; eijmi, in reference to Himself. Why is just John 8:58 changed?

The Holy Spirit Identified as God (selected from this blog post):

As an aside, I am quite aware that the Watchtower teaches Jehovah's witnesses that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force, not a person. The blog post linked above responds at some length to that false teaching.

The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life. (Job 33:4, NASV)
The Holy Spirit identified as Creator and life-giver.

Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? (Psalm 139:7, NASV)
The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, an attribute of God.

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back some of the price of the land? "While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God." (Acts 5:3-4, NASV)
In lying to the Holy Spirit, Ananias lied to God.

For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:11, NASV)
Besides attributing knowledge and understanding to the Holy Spirit, this attributes to the Holy Spirit knowledge and understanding that only God can have.

And this was her response:

[quote}ALTER2EGO -to- PETE S IN CA:
My OP is not from a Watchtower template. I wrote it myself based upon my personal research regarding trinity from numerous sources (websites, encyclopedias, etc.). (she never provide any citing for this claim) All of the images in my OP are from the Internet. Of course, at this point, I very much doubt you will give me credit for anything. Especially since you have repeatedly informed me that you consider me to be dishonest and that I am here to prey on people. I do not appreciate having my character attacked.

I asked for scriptures from the Bible to prove Trinity and hellfire torment claims. If I wanted to "prey" on people, I would not have asked anyone for scriptures but would have instead told people my opinion/personal philosophy. Since the Bible speaks for itself, my intention in asking for scriptures is to make the Bible the authority.


Yours is the type of contentious attitude I run into at numerous websites when Trinitarian moderators get involved in the debate. I asked valid questions in my OP and requested people to start with the first four verses of scriptures so that those scriptures can be discussed thoroughly--before moving on to another four verses. Instead, you presented a wall of text along with groups of cherry picked verses that do not mean what you claim they mean.



None of the verses you provided above are talking trinity. I could go through them one by one and direct you to the context and show you why. But I very much doubt you want to see the context. (Context refers to the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are related to the verse that is being focused on.) People who believe trinity are not willing to pay attention to Biblical context, because the context debunks what they claim the verses are saying.


Not only that, since you believe I am dishonest and that I am here to prey on people, you will reject everything I show you regarding Biblical context because you have now turned this into an anti-Watchtower argument, which enables you to evade the fact that the doctrine of a 3-prong god in Christendom did not become formal Christian teaching until the 4th century AD--more than 300 years after Jesus Christ left the earthly scene.[/quote]

Another typical alter answer:

ALTER2EGO -to- JACK HECKTERMAN:
I will only deal with four verses of scriptures at a time, maximum. Above are the red flags in four of the scriptures you posted. Without context, words lose their intended meaning. The routine of Trinitarians is to isolate a few words and ignore everything else that is part of the context. Remember, context refers to the surrounding words, verses, and chapters that are related to the verse one is focusing on.

You previously indicated you are not interested in anything I have to say. So I will not trouble myself to show you the context, unless you say otherwise.

And more from one of the mods:

I don't recall stating in my OP that the pagan trinities were exactly like Christendom's version. In fact, the three sets of trinities in my OP are all different from each other in terms of the characteristics of the gods in each set. Christendom's trinity is simply another rendition of a pagan idea.
At some point the degree of difference becomes so great as the preclude claims of being analogous. That the pagan triads you cited were each three individual gods, and all 3 were members of more numerous pantheons renders these triads entirely different from the Christian Trinity, which is three persons Who are individually God yet still one God Who alone is God. As I keep saying, you are trying to say that apples are like pineapples, which they are not.

FACT #1: There were pagan trinities in existence for at least 200 years before Jesus Christ appeared on earth.
So what! Demonstrate the influence you assume. This is the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy I referred to in a later post. You claim influence. Provide evidence for that claim. The only thing showing these polytheistic triads existed before Jesus was born does for your claim is to show it cannot be dismissed due to anachronism.

FACT #2: There are no scriptures in God's inspired word, the Bible, that indicate the Father (YHWH/Jehovah), the Son (Jesus Christ) and the holy spirit are three persons that are co-equal and co-eternal and combined into a single "Godhead."
As you now know, I responded to your questions this AM rather than last night. And I cited quite a few - albeit not an exhaustive list - scriptures.

FACT #3: It was not until the 4th century AD—more than 300 years after Jesus Christ returned to heavenly life, and more than 300 years after the last book of the Bible was written—that the Christianized Romans formalized Christendom's trinity.
Nicaea formalized how the Trinity was taught, but the Bible teaches the Trinity in identifying the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as God.

FACT #4: Although Christendom gave its version of trinity a different twist from the examples in my OP, with the result that Christendom ends up with a 3-in-1 god, Christendom identified and then combined a set of three persons (Father, Son, and holy ghost). The pagan trinities each have a set of three specific gods. For instance, Egypt's Abydos Triad is always Horus, Osirus, and Isis—to the exclusion of all of the other Egyptian gods. Remember a set of three equates to trinity.
The Egyptian religion is polytheistic; Christianity is monotheistic. Huge difference. The Egyptian religion had a much more numerous pantheon than just those three; Christians teach that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have no additional peers, and that there is only one God. A second huge difference. Among other Egyptian gods whose names come to mind are Amen-Ra, the greatest among the pantheon, Anubis, Set and Thoth. Specific cities in Egypt often had cults devoted to certain specific gods - evidently Abydos had such a cult that was devoted to Osiris, Isis and Horus - but that does not change the fact that those three were but three among many more. This cults of specific gods phenomenon was also seen among the Greeks and Romans. The bottom line is that a cult triad of three among many is utterly different from what Christians teach the Trinity to be.

And more:

Yours is the type of contentious attitude I run into at numerous websites when Trinitarian moderators get involved in the debate. I asked valid questions in my OP and requested people to start with the first four verses of scriptures so that those scriptures can be discussed thoroughly--before moving on to another four verses. Instead, you presented a wall of text along with groups of cherry picked verses that do not mean what you claim they mean.
"Cherry picked verses"? That's an odd criticism from the person who asked for "four" - just four - "verses" (not paragraphs, otherwise known as "context"). If you wanted context included, inform your readers that it is expected. Otherwise criticisms for lack of context will appear disingenuous.

As for, "when Trinitarian moderators get involved in the debate," I am a member of RO, and I post as such. I was an RO member nearly two years before being asked to be a Mod. So I doubt anyone here thinks of my posts as posts from a Moderator. Nor should they, unless warm discussion gets personal or insults start flying and I intervene as a Moderator. The same is true of JStang, Fantasy Chaser, Rightwing Nutjob and WhoIsJohnGalt.

As to context, I'm well aware of the verses' contexts. So, look at John 8:58. After Jesus said that, the Jewish leaders picked up stones to try to kill Him. Why, Because they understood that He claimed to be the I AM, God. Such a claim would be blasphemy, the punishment for which was ... being stoned to death. The context for Hebrews 1:8? The writer was explaining how the Son is greater than the angels, being God and not one of the angels (as the WTB&TS claims Him to be, as you well know). The context for John 1:3? John identifies the Word as God, and as existing in eternity; and John 1:3 clearly states that the Word participated in creating everything that was created. Read Acts 5 as often as you will! You won't find anything in that context that contradicts the plain statement in the verse I quoted. I could similarly examine the context of the other verses I cited, but I'm working from memory and don't have the list on screen.

There is so much more. If anyone wants to read the entire thread (VERY long...) you can read it here: http://www.republicanoperative.com/foru ... ome-40902/

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
God is not split up into three persons within a "Godhead," you say? Then what else do you call three separate persons that are in different places at the same time, at least two of them (the Father and the Son) have been quoted talking to one another from different locations, one of them prays to the other one and worships the other one, etc., and then when they feel inclined, they turn around and blend into a single "Godhead"? If that's not an example of one god split up into three different persons, then I don't know what is.

What makes you think the three Persons are "in different places at the same time"?

Again, A2E, you need to recognize that what you are rejecting is NOT the doctrine of the Trinity.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
So now it's about what I think and not about what the Bible says? You want to drag this out with the usual cat-and-mouse game? Okay. I'll play your little game. Follow the bouncing ball....

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)


"{16} And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: {17} And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:16-17 -- King James Version)


QUESTION #1 to JAC3510: Jesus was on earth getting baptized. Matthew 3:17 says Jehovah's voice came from heaven. According to your sense of direction, are earth and heaven the same location? YES or NO?


QUESTION #2 to JAC3510: According to the Trinity dogma, Jesus and Jehovah are actually the same god. Is this forum then to understand that God approved of himself by what was stated at Matthew 3:17? YES or NO?

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
There is one will and one intellect with the Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus Christ), you say? The Bible contradicts you.


DIFFERENT WILLS, JESUS' OWN WORDS:
"saying: 'Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, NOT MY WILL, but yours take place.' " (Luke 22:42)


DIFFERENT INTELLECT, IN JESUS' OWN WORDS:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36 -- King James Version)


QUESTION #1 to JAC3510: If you were in my position, whose version of facts would you believe? The Bible's version, as quoted above, being that the Bible is the inspired word of Jehovah? Or the pagan version facts that you referred to when you claimed God and Jesus Christ have the same intellect and the same will?


Let me know.

And you also don't understand the hypostatic union. Jesus, being fully human and fully God, has two wills and two intellects--that of his human nature and that of his divine nature. The doctrine of the Trinity refers only to the divine nature, not the human. The divine will and the divine intellect of Jesus are numerically identical (that is, they are exactly the same, not merely in purpose (as Christians are to have the "same mind"), but rather that they are one and the same) with the will and intellect of the Father and the Spirit.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
Making things up as you go, I see. You changed from all three "persons" of the trinity having the same will and the same intellect to now telling me about the "hypostatic union" where there are two different wills and two different intellects--within the very same God. Below is what you said earlier:

Someone doesn't understand the Trinity (big shock). God is not "split up" to use the words of your first post. God is not a recipe, which is one part Father, one part Son, and one part Spirit. There are not "three gods." There is one God who is three persons. There is one substance. There is one will. There is one intellect. There is one act. There is one essence. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the Persons one from another except their relations: paternity, filiation, and procession. There actually is a fourth relation, which is common spiration, but that relation is common to both Father and Son. Thus, that relation which is called paternity is the Person called the Father; that relation which is called filiation is the Person called the Son; that relation which is called procession is the Person called the Holy Spirit.

I know from debating literally dozens of Trintarians at various websites that they refuse... downright refuse to be corrected by the scriptures. They will jump through hoops, making things up as they go, in order to NOT SUBMIT TO CORRECTION from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Seriously. Trinitarians will find all types of ways to talk their way around scriptures so they can cling to their non-existent trinity god aka traditions of men.

Keep running from the truth. You are only hurting yourself.

[ClassicalTeacher]

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
There is one will and one intellect with the Father (Jehovah) and the Son (Jesus Christ), you say? The Bible contradicts you.


DIFFERENT WILLS, JESUS' OWN WORDS:
"saying: 'Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, NOT MY WILL, but yours take place.' " (Luke 22:42)


DIFFERENT INTELLECT, IN JESUS' OWN WORDS:
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matthew 24:36 -- King James Version)


QUESTION #1 to JAC3510: If you were in my position, whose version of facts would you believe? The Bible's version, as quoted above, being that the Bible is the inspired word of Jehovah? Or the pagan version facts that you referred to when you claimed God and Jesus Christ have the same intellect and the same will?


Let me know.

And you also don't understand the hypostatic union. Jesus, being fully human and fully God, has two wills and two intellects--that of his human nature and that of his divine nature. The doctrine of the Trinity refers only to the divine nature, not the human. The divine will and the divine intellect of Jesus are numerically identical (that is, they are exactly the same, not merely in purpose (as Christians are to have the "same mind"), but rather that they are one and the same) with the will and intellect of the Father and the Spirit.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
Making things up as you go, I see. You changed from all three "persons" of the trinity having the same will and the same intellect to now telling me about the "hypostatic union" where there are two different wills and two different intellects--within the very same God. Below is what you said earlier:

Someone doesn't understand the Trinity (big shock). God is not "split up" to use the words of your first post. God is not a recipe, which is one part Father, one part Son, and one part Spirit. There are not "three gods." There is one God who is three persons. There is one substance. There is one will. There is one intellect. There is one act. There is one essence. There is absolutely nothing to distinguish the Persons one from another except their relations: paternity, filiation, and procession. There actually is a fourth relation, which is common spiration, but that relation is common to both Father and Son. Thus, that relation which is called paternity is the Person called the Father; that relation which is called filiation is the Person called the Son; that relation which is called procession is the Person called the Holy Spirit.

I know from debating literally dozens of Trintarians at various websites that they refuse... downright refuse to be corrected by the scriptures. They will jump through hoops, making things up as they go, in order to NOT SUBMIT TO CORRECTION from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Seriously. Trinitarians will find all types of ways to talk their way around scriptures so they can cling to their non-existent trinity god aka traditions of men.

Keep running from the truth. You are only hurting yourself.

You keep saying the "Judeo-Christian Bible" yet you reject it because the only authority that you and the rest of the jws recognize is their own MADE-UP bible to justify the jw belief system. Your "bible" has absolutely NO AUTHORITY----PERIOD!!!! Talk about JUMPING THROUGH HOOPS!!!

AS I SAID EARLIER, POT, MEET KETTLE!!!

This lady needs lots of prayers, folks.

[PeteSinCA]

I know from debating literally dozens of Trintarians at various websites that they refuse... downright refuse to be corrected by the scriptures. They will jump through hoops, making things up as they go, in order to NOT SUBMIT TO CORRECTION from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Seriously. Trinitarians will find all types of ways to talk their way around scriptures so they can cling to their non-existent trinity god aka traditions of men.

Keep running from the truth. You are only hurting yourself.

I was one of the participants in the thread that A2E linked on page 1 of this thread. On at least two occasions I specifically and directly asked her for Scriptures that contradicted the key elements in the Christian teaching of the Trinity. Not quite refusing "to be corrected by the scriptures". A2E never responded with such Scriptures.

On the other hand I did provide scriptures that support those key elements in the Christian teaching of the Trinity (the Deity of the Son; the personhood and Deity of the Holy Spirit). A2E dismissed those Scriptures as taken out of context, but, except for a cursory post or two about John 1:1 (cited by another member), she never demonstrated how the context of each contradicted how I interpreted them. So I was not, " jump(ing) through hoops, making things up as (I went)"; A2E's dismissal, however, was the kind of refusal she attributed to "Trinitarians".

As I found time - like A2E, I do have a life - I dug deeper into the contexts of the passages I cited. Here are links to blog posts which were adapted from my posts on that discussion forum:

Trinity & Divinity, Part 1
Trinity & Divinity, Part 2 - John 1:1-4
Trinity & Divinity, Part 3, John 8:12-59
Trinity and Divinity, Part 4, Acts 5:1-11 & Psalm 139:1-10
Trinity and Divinity, Part 5, Hebrews 1:1-12

Except for the first post or two, they are not brief. I'm hesitant to link to my own blog - I'm not here to promote myself - but I think it entirely inappropriate to post a ginormous post or several very large posts. At this point in my participation here, anyway.

Back on topic, A2E likely saw my post on John 1:1-4 before taking leave from that discussion forum. Unless she did so as a "Guest" she probably has not seen the rest. At any rate, those posts were hardly "find(ing) all types of ways to talk (my) way around scriptures".

[Alter2Ego]

As for hellfire, the doctrine is from the passages about the lake of fire in revelation and about being consummed by fire in Ghenna.

EX:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I looked through the verses you presented above and did not see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment. Suppose you explain where you are seeing literal hellfire by starting with the first four verses? We will do four verses at a time.

[Jac3510]

So now it's about what I think and not about what the Bible says? You want to drag this out with the usual cat-and-mouse game? Okay. I'll play your little game. Follow the bouncing ball.... [/color]

Well, you clearly think the Bible says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are in different places. I think it's a perfectly fair question.

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)

"{16} And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: {17} And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:16-17 -- King James Version)

QUESTION #1 to JAC3510: Jesus was on earth getting baptized. Matthew 3:17 says Jehovah's voice came from heaven. According to your sense of direction, are earth and heaven the same location? YES or NO?

Heaven and earth are not in the same location. I still don't see why you think that since a voice came from heaven that the Father and the Son are in different places. I really would be interested in the answer to that question.

QUESTION #2 to JAC3510: According to the Trinity dogma, Jesus and Jehovah are actually the same god. Is this forum then to understand that God approved of himself by what was stated at Matthew 3:17? YES or NO?

No, the Father did not approve Himself. Now you've moved from assuming Tritheism (which you were arguing against earlier) to assuming Sabellianism (aka, Modalsim). The Father approved the Son. The son is not identical to the Father. They are different Persons who share the identical substance, will, intellect, nature, essence, act of being, attributes, etc (which, in them, are all identical with one another anyway). I refer you back to my previous comments on the four relations within God.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
Making things up as you go, I see. You changed from all three "persons" of the trinity having the same will and the same intellect to now telling me about the "hypostatic union" where there are two different wills and two different intellects--within the very same God. Below is what you said earlier:

I know from debating literally dozens of Trintarians at various websites that they refuse... downright refuse to be corrected by the scriptures. They will jump through hoops, making things up as they go, in order to NOT SUBMIT TO CORRECTION from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Seriously. Trinitarians will find all types of ways to talk their way around scriptures so they can cling to their non-existent trinity god aka traditions of men.

Keep running from the truth. You are only hurting yourself.

Making things up? A2E, I am informing you of what Trinitarians have been saying for 1600 years. That you don't understand the doctrine you are critiquing is your flaw, not mine.

I maintain exactly what I said. The three Persons of the Trinkty have the same will, intellect, nature, essence, being, act, attributes, etc. They are distinguished only by their relations--see my previous comments about that. The man Jesus, however, had TWO natures. He had His human nature, together with the human nature's will, intellect, etc.; and He had His divine nature, together with its will, intellect, etc. Jesus' divine nature is identical with the nature of the Father and the Spirit. Thus, Jesus' divine will, intellect, etc. were identical to the divine will, intellect, etc. of the Father and of the Holy Spirit. His human intellect, will, etc., however, were not identical to the divine will, intellect, etc., because the human nature is not identical to the divine nature. Jesus' human nature was rather completely and perfectly submissive to His divine nature, which is to say, to the will of the Father (which was in Him perfectly).

Again, this is all very elementary when it comes to Trinitarian doctrine. That you fail to understand the place of the incarnation in the Trinity and only shows your gross naivete. Do you really believe that professional theologians and philosophers for the last 1600 years--people with far more education than everyone on this board put together--failed to ask themselves the questions you are asking now?

I encourage you to work your way through Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. It is set up in a question and answer format. All the questions you have asked are questions he asks and answers, plus a lot more. But really, the idea that you are asking anything new or compelling only shows how utterly ignorant you are of the subject matter you profess to disagree with. You want to talk about me hurting myself? The funny thing -- and I mean literally funny, as in, I literally laugh out loud as I read your comments -- is how blind you are. You're like a child telling a biology professor that evolution is false because there are still monkeys. You are like a Flat Earther saying you can't sail all the way around the world because you would fall of the edge. The funny part isn't that you are wrong, A2E. It's that you have no clue about what you are talking about, and you insist that you do.

That, by the way, is probably why you think that these many Trinitarians won't be "corrected" by Scripture. I assure you, your biology professor won't be "corrected" by nature when you show him evolution can't be true because there are still monkeys, and ship captains won't be "corrected" by geology when you show him that he can't sail around the world because he would fall off the edge. A2E, the only person who won't be corrected is you. How can you expect to correct anyone when you are arguing against a position no one adheres to?

So, again, hurting myself? In terms of credibility, I can promise you that no one here takes anything you say seriously. And contrary to what you certainly believe, it isn't because you ask hard questions we can't or don't want to see the answers to. It's because your questions aren't serious, because they don't take their subject matter seriously. It's because YOU are not serious.

That's something you can fix, of course. You can come here and try to learn about the Trinity and the hypostatic union so that if you reject it, at least you know what you are rejecting. But you've shown absolutely no interest in learning about something you don't understand. You're more interested in telling us what we believe (when we don't believe what you say), and telling us that we are wrong to believe what it is you have said that we believe, even when we don't believe it.

[Alter2Ego]

5. If hell is a place of literal fiery torment, how is it that the Bible says Jesus went to hell for the entire three days that he was dead?

"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)

First off, Jesus ( quoting Isaiah) was referring to Himself, not people that have turned away from God.

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
Actually, I quoted from Acts, which was written by Luke, and Luke was not quoting Jesus Christ when he wrote the above.

BTW: Notice that I quoted from the King James Version and not the New World Translation, and it clearly says Jesus Christ was in hell after he died. How do you explain Jesus Christ burning in hell, when the general idea is that only wicked people wind up burning in hell?

You see the point the Bible is making? That hell is nothing more than mankind's common grave?

[ClassicalTeacher]

As for hellfire, the doctrine is from the passages about the lake of fire in revelation and about being consummed by fire in Ghenna.

EX:

Is hellfire preaching biblical? Clearly, Jesus taught on hell, and He did so to warn people not to go there. Hell is depicted in Scripture as a very nasty place from which there is no escape. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10). Surely, a loving and compassionate Savior could not be so described if He failed to warn us about hell. But Jesus is certainly loving and compassionate, and He presented the joys and bliss of heaven and was clear about the only way to attain them. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life,” He said. “No one comes to the Father but through me” (John 14:6). The apostle Paul was equally blunt about the fate of those who rejected the gospel of salvation through Christ alone. They are condemned to “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:8-9).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/hellfire-pr ... z2W6ItWhio

ALTER2EGO -to- PAUL SACRAMENTO:
I looked through the verses you presented above and did not see anything in any of them that is with reference to literal hellfire torment. Suppose you explain where you are seeing literal hellfire by starting with the first four verses? We will do four verses at a time.

Will ya listen to "miss authority" here! "WE will do four verses at a time??? For what??? For you to ignore??? Like you did at RO after so many good Christian people tried to answer your questions????? How about WE do this: answer all of the questions and responses to your gibberish on RO FIRST and THEN we'll discuss your four verses, eh?

[ClassicalTeacher]

So now it's about what I think and not about what the Bible says? You want to drag this out with the usual cat-and-mouse game? Okay. I'll play your little game. Follow the bouncing ball.... [/color]

Well, you clearly think the Bible says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are in different places. I think it's a perfectly fair question.

"{16} After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! The heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God's spirit coming upon him. {17} Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: 'This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.' " (Matthew 3:16-17 -- New World Translation)

"{16} And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: {17} And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Matthew 3:16-17 -- King James Version)

QUESTION #1 to JAC3510: Jesus was on earth getting baptized. Matthew 3:17 says Jehovah's voice came from heaven. According to your sense of direction, are earth and heaven the same location? YES or NO?

Heaven and earth are not in the same location. I still don't see why you think that since a voice came from heaven that the Father and the Son are in different places. I really would be interested in the answer to that question.

QUESTION #2 to JAC3510: According to the Trinity dogma, Jesus and Jehovah are actually the same god. Is this forum then to understand that God approved of himself by what was stated at Matthew 3:17? YES or NO?

No, the Father did not approve Himself. Now you've moved from assuming Tritheism (which you were arguing against earlier) to assuming Sabellianism (aka, Modalsim). The Father approved the Son. The son is not identical to the Father. They are different Persons who share the identical substance, will, intellect, nature, essence, act of being, attributes, etc (which, in them, are all identical with one another anyway). I refer you back to my previous comments on the four relations within God.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
Making things up as you go, I see. You changed from all three "persons" of the trinity having the same will and the same intellect to now telling me about the "hypostatic union" where there are two different wills and two different intellects--within the very same God. Below is what you said earlier:

I know from debating literally dozens of Trintarians at various websites that they refuse... downright refuse to be corrected by the scriptures. They will jump through hoops, making things up as they go, in order to NOT SUBMIT TO CORRECTION from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible. Seriously. Trinitarians will find all types of ways to talk their way around scriptures so they can cling to their non-existent trinity god aka traditions of men.

Keep running from the truth. You are only hurting yourself.

Making things up? A2E, I am informing you of what Trinitarians have been saying for 1600 years. That you don't understand the doctrine you are critiquing is your flaw, not mine.

I maintain exactly what I said. The three Persons of the Trinkty have the same will, intellect, nature, essence, being, act, attributes, etc. They are distinguished only by their relations--see my previous comments about that. The man Jesus, however, had TWO natures. He had His human nature, together with the human nature's will, intellect, etc.; and He had His divine nature, together with its will, intellect, etc. Jesus' divine nature is identical with the nature of the Father and the Spirit. Thus, Jesus' divine will, intellect, etc. were identical to the divine will, intellect, etc. of the Father and of the Holy Spirit. His human intellect, will, etc., however, were not identical to the divine will, intellect, etc., because the human nature is not identical to the divine nature. Jesus' human nature was rather completely and perfectly submissive to His divine nature, which is to say, to the will of the Father (which was in Him perfectly).

Again, this is all very elementary when it comes to Trinitarian doctrine. That you fail to understand the place of the incarnation in the Trinity and only shows your gross naivete. Do you really believe that professional theologians and philosophers for the last 1600 years--people with far more education than everyone on this board put together--failed to ask themselves the questions you are asking now?

I encourage you to work your way through Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. It is set up in a question and answer format. All the questions you have asked are questions he asks and answers, plus a lot more. But really, the idea that you are asking anything new or compelling only shows how utterly ignorant you are of the subject matter you profess to disagree with. You want to talk about me hurting myself? The funny thing -- and I mean literally funny, as in, I literally laugh out loud as I read your comments -- is how blind you are. You're like a child telling a biology professor that evolution is false because there are still monkeys. You are like a Flat Earther saying you can't sail all the way around the world because you would fall of the edge. The funny part isn't that you are wrong, A2E. It's that you have no clue about what you are talking about, and you insist that you do.

That, by the way, is probably why you think that these many Trinitarians won't be "corrected" by Scripture. I assure you, your biology professor won't be "corrected" by nature when you show him evolution can't be true because there are still monkeys, and ship captains won't be "corrected" by geology when you show him that he can't sail around the world because he would fall off the edge. A2E, the only person who won't be corrected is you. How can you expect to correct anyone when you are arguing against a position no one adheres to?

So, again, hurting myself? In terms of credibility, I can promise you that no one here takes anything you say seriously. And contrary to what you certainly believe, it isn't because you ask hard questions we can't or don't want to see the answers to. It's because your questions aren't serious, because they don't take their subject matter seriously. It's because YOU are not serious.

That's something you can fix, of course. You can come here and try to learn about the Trinity and the hypostatic union so that if you reject it, at least you know what you are rejecting. But you've shown absolutely no interest in learning about something you don't understand. You're more interested in telling us what we believe (when we don't believe what you say), and telling us that we are wrong to believe what it is you have said that we believe, even when we don't believe it.

Wow!! I wish there was an emoticon with wildly applauding hands! You summed her up beautifully! That's the best I can do at this point! BTW, I have tried to work my way through the Summa, as I had my own 26 volume copy of it at one point (I donated it to a Catholic high school some years ago) and I loved it. But, there is so much to ponder that I didn't get too far! My hat (if I wore one) is off to you, my friend. I wish I had your gift of saying things simply and to the point. I often wind up getting lost in words trying to make my point.

[Alter2Ego]

So now it's about what I think and not about what the Bible says? You want to drag this out with the usual cat-and-mouse game? Okay. I'll play your little game. Follow the bouncing ball.... [/color]

Well, you clearly think the Bible says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are in different places. I think it's a perfectly fair question.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
You're back to that little game; huh? Still trying to make it about what I think, despite the fact I showed you what the Bible said at Matthew 3:16-17.

I am slick to your game. I've played it at numerous websites with dozens of Trinitarians. Your strategy is very familiar.

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
Understand this. In order for the trinity dogma to work in the minds of Trinitarians, they have to maintain the following belief regarding all three "persons" of the trinity (Father, Son, and holy ghost/holy spirit):

1. Each of the three "persons" of the trinity must have the same will .
2. Each of the three "persons" of the trinity must have the same power.
3. Each of the three "persons" of the trinity must have the same intellect.
4. Each of the three "persons" of the trinity must have the same eternity.

Trinitarians are not interested in scriptures that contradict those four assumptions. In other words, they are not interested in being corrected by the Bible because the man-made doctrine means more to them than correction from the scriptures. Keep that in mind as you watch the arguments being used by Trinitarians in this thread. Watch how they reject scriptures that debunk the four assumptions that I listed above. They will do it by various evasive methods. In my next post, I will demonstrate this, beginning with Jac3510's responses thus far.

[ClassicalTeacher]

So now it's about what I think and not about what the Bible says? You want to drag this out with the usual cat-and-mouse game? Okay. I'll play your little game. Follow the bouncing ball.... [/color]

Well, you clearly think the Bible says that the Father, Son, and Spirit are in different places. I think it's a perfectly fair question.

ALTER2EGO -to- JAC3510:
You're back to that little game; huh? Still trying to make it about what I think, despite the fact I showed you what the Bible said at Matthew 3:16-17.

I am slick to your game. I've played it at numerous websites with dozens of Trinitarians. Your strategy is very familiar.

LOL! AND, we're slick to yours, my dear!!!