Evidence for God from Science

I’ve thought about the issue of homeschooling – a LOT.

Using this to introduce where I'm coming from, I can say the same. We homeschooled our children for 17 years, each of them “K-12”, graduating our youngest at age 16. We started, and for 4 years led, a homeschooling support group that, now more than 20 years later, is still helping Silicon Valley homeschoolers. For several years we helped in the organizing and running of a homeschoolers' convention also located locally, and volunteered at that convention and at Christian Home Educators Association of California's (CHEA) statewide convention. We were not, however, leaders in CHEA, though the co-leaders of our support group were part of CHEA's Regional Advisory Board. I've also written several articles that are part of the online support website, Homeschool Christian.com (Getting Started Homeschooling Index and Support Index). There's nothing I'm boasting of in all that (I wish I could have said all this in one, reasonably brief sentence), but my family and I have lived and seen from the “inside” the things I say.

... there is no ONE universally correct answer as to whether homeschooling is right or wrong.

No argument or quibble on this point, just adding that, similarly, there is no single method of homeschooling. Some parents more or less literally recreate a classroom in their homes – desks, textbooks, white boards, etc. - some use hands-on life experiences, students' interests, zero textbooks and library books by the hundred-weight. Our family was in between but closer to the interests and experiences end of the spectrum.

Yes, there can be many positive reasons for deciding to educate one’s children at home, as an alternative to public or private schooling. As well, one’s justifications for homeschooling may, in fact, change – and perhaps, several times. … The key consideration here is that you have a high confidence level as to the school’s track record of being a safe environment.

The frame of reference from which this comes troubles me. Whether one is a Christian believer or not, the education of one's child(ren) is the responsibility of the parents. They may delegate some of the tasks to others (perhaps because of their special expertise), but not the responsibility. In terms of history, government-run (public) schools are a recent phenomenon. The leaders of the US in the 18th and well into the 19th centuries were educated at home – by parents and tutors – for, roughly, what we might call elementary school, and then went to institutional schools to prepare for college. More ordinary citizens would, instead of college prep, have been apprenticed to learn a trade, learned their family's business, or gone to work on the family farm. This was probably the pattern in many/most countries outside of the US. Thus, public schools should not be regarded as the default option or some sort of norm.

And homeschooling need not necessarily encompass a child’s entire academic career, as such decisions will be impacted by the changing variables of school choices and family situations.

Again, no argument or quibble on this point. One option, one we were able to use for our children, is concurrent enrollment in a community college during high school. This let our kids take classes they normally would have gotten and get college credit. Terms vary: some colleges may have a minimum age; some may limit how many credit hours a concurrently enrolled student may take. We graduated our younger daughter at age 16 so she could take a full load of classes (FWIW, she took and passed California's California High School Proficiency Exam – as did her brother and sister, BTW). I'll have more to say about flexibility in homeschooling.

An important homeschooling variable to consider should be whether one is appropriately gifted and/or has the adequate training or teaching skills to do so effectively (and in some states, legally). You may be in a state that requires specific academic credentials and strict criteria for homeschoolers - can you meet such requirements? Are you willing to undergo the needed sacrifice of time, energy and patience to effectively teach?

There's several cylindrical metal containers of annelids here. First, the presumption that classroom-based school teachers are qualified to teach one's children needs to be questioned. They may be, but that should not be assumed. Not many public school teachers majored in the subjects they teach; Education was their major. The things they learned in their major – how children learn, education methods, classroom management – have value, but much of that, plus the expertise in particular subjects, are present in the textbooks and other curricular materials. Since much of the expertise is present in the curricular materials, the assumption that parents are not suitable as teachers for their children also needs to be questioned. Who knows their children better? The parents? Or a teacher who hardly (if ever) set eyes on their children before the beginning of the school year? Who cares more deeply about their children? Who will be able to give their more instructional time and guidance? The parents? Or a teacher with a class of 20-40 children?

Considering credentials further … public school teachers are required to have teaching credentials (aside from student teachers, who are overseen by a credentialed teacher). But are teachers in private classroom-based schools legally required to have a teaching credential. Not necessarily: the school might require it; the teacher may, though not required to do so; state laws may vary. As for homeschooling laws (in the US), they vary considerably. The Homeschool Legal Defense Association (HSLDA)has a web page where one may find summaries of various states' laws. Only a few states get into whether or not a homeschooling parent has a college education or not, and none (AFAIK) make a college degree an absolute prerequisite to homeschool. States that do consider the education of the parents make that a factor in the degree of oversight of those homeschools.

As for the, “the needed sacrifice of time, energy and patience,” children usually enter school at age 4 or 5 (ignoring preschools and daycare, whose parents are much less likely to consider homeschooling). What have the parents been doing in the first 5 years or so of the child's life. Raising an infant and toddler certainly requires much “time, energy and patience”.

... But to think that one can keep their children in some little Christian “cocoon” that will keep their eyes and ears away from all bad influences – well, that make work for a period – but, ultimately, your children are going to one day have to face such influences without you.
Are your children and your Christian faith so small that it cannot handle viewpoints that are different or unwanted? And exactly how long are you going to try to protect them – all the way through high school? Are you then going to send them to a Christian college? The REAL world they are headed to has no Christian “bubble” to protect them.

Speaking of cylindrical metal containers of annelids! Pretty much, this is a version of the classic but wearying S Question homeschoolers have been hearing for the past 20 or 30 years: ”What about socialization?”. There's a fundamental and questionable underlying assumption, here. Where does the idea come from that homeschoolers keep their children utterly isolated from the world? Seriously?! Homeschooled children never go to church? Homeschooled children never go to Sunday School? Homeschooled children never go to AWANA and groups such as Royal rangers? Homeschooled children never participate in Little League, Pop Warner Football, Upward Basketball and other sports leagues (including, but not limited to sports leagues organized by homeschooling parents)? Homeschooled children never participate in Girl Scouts, Campfire Boys and Girls and Boy Scouts? Homeschooled children never participate in community theater groups or choirs (or organize their own)? Ever heard of homeschooling co-ops – where parents take turns teaching subjects to all children in the co-op? Did you know homeschooling parents organize special classes, such as for literature, journalism, science, art and more? I mentioned support groups (ours was far from the only one in Silicon Valley!) … most have regular park days (as often as weekly) and field trips. And that's just the kinds of stuff our kids were involved in! There was (and may yet be) a homeschoolers' drum corps in Southern California. There are debate clubs for homeschoolers all over the US, with local/regional tournaments that culminate in a national tournament. Our problem was not finding opportunities for "socialization"! It was picking what we participated in so that activities didn't consume every day of the week.

I've been at this for something like 2 1/2 hours, and need to stop at this point, hopefully to continue another time. How did things work out for our children – our youngest is in her mid-20s? Our youngest has attended some college, and has for some years been a missionary with Youth With A Mission (YWAM). She has staffed several schools at her base, and co-led several 2-month outreaches in several countries. Next year her plans are to move to another country, attend a university there and reach out to fellow students and city residents. Her brother has a business degree, works using skills he learned from his personal interests during “high school”, played drums in one of our church's worship bands, and achieved Eagle rank in Boy Scouts. Our older daughter did a couple of schools in YWAM (outreaches to Fiji and the Raleigh-Durham area of North Carolina; the latter was a career and lay service oriented school), was the primary caregiver for her grandmothers last several years of her life, and is now, ironically, a preschool teacher (she sees stay-at-home Moms as better for raising children, but is being a loving, caring teacher for preschoolers whose parents can't or won't).

Where does the idea come from that homeschoolers keep their children utterly isolated from the world? Seriously?! Homeschooled children never go to church? Homeschooled children never go to Sunday School? Homeschooled children never go to AWANA and groups such as Royal rangers? Homeschooled children never participate in Little League, Pop Warner Football, Upward Basketball and other sports leagues (including, but not limited to sports leagues organized by homeschooling parents)? Homeschooled children never participate in Girl Scouts, Campfire Boys and Girls and Boy Scouts? Homeschooled children never participate in community theater groups or choirs (or organize their own)? Ever heard of homeschooling co-ops – where parents take turns teaching subjects to all children in the co-op?

Please don't take my general observations as an attack on homeschooling. But many of what you mention are very supervised activities where little interaction and playing out of or discussing world views occurs. There's not a lot of one-on-one in many of these activities - certainly not isolated ones or where the parameters are not constantly controlled or monitored by adults. For kids, the real learning about others different than yourself occurs in the corners, on the playgrounds - wherever and whenever adults aren't constantly listening and watching and the atmosphere and the environment isn't controlled. THOSE are when kids truly learn to deal with others often far different than themselves - their opinions, attitudes and actions. That is also how they learn to interact, talk with and influence/or not be influenced. This is where they learn to stand up for their own Christian beliefs.

But the biggest concern I have is withdrawing our massive and collective Christian witness from public schools - this is a wonderful opportunity to constantly witness the Joy within our children's and our own hearts. People act as if their faith isn't strong enough to stand up to the challenges of the world or that God can't or won't guide and protect them as they model their faith in front of children and adults that otherwise would likely not have such powerful exposures. UNLESS one's schools are dangerous, academically problematic or their current schedules/finances/logistics aren't currently conducive to public school, and if the available school standards are high, I just can't see choosing home schooling.

I agree Philip. Kids need to interact in the real world. Unless of course parents are homeschooling to prepare their children for working from home.

I know a family that homeschooled their children most of their childhood, and it had deleterious effect on the way they cope in the "real world".

The main problem that people have home schooling their own children is they have no idea what they are doing. Like running a home business, it takes a lot of investment, not just a little knowledge. For most children, it would probably be better to attend public or private school, as long as the parent is involved in what the child learns daily, not every once in a while. That way the parent can counter any teachings immediately that are against their beliefs. Its a little late when they've been taught several years that nothing is wrong with homosexuality, or that the earth is billions of years old.

pat34lee wrote:The main problem that people have home schooling their own children is they have no idea what they are doing. Like running a home business, it takes a lot of investment, not just a little knowledge. For most children, it would probably be better to attend public or private school, as long as the parent is involved in what the child learns daily, not every once in a while. That way the parent can counter any teachings immediately that are against their beliefs. Its a little late when they've been taught several years that nothing is wrong with homosexuality, or that the earth is billions of years old.

I know right. Not only are our schools teaching that the earth is billions of years old, but now it seems some Christian websites are teaching the earth and the universe are billions of years old:
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... earth.html
What is the church coming to, when Christians can't see that the plain, literal text of scripture says the earth is young!

RickD wrote:

pat34lee wrote:The main problem that people have home schooling their own children is they have no idea what they are doing. Like running a home business, it takes a lot of investment, not just a little knowledge. For most children, it would probably be better to attend public or private school, as long as the parent is involved in what the child learns daily, not every once in a while. That way the parent can counter any teachings immediately that are against their beliefs. Its a little late when they've been taught several years that nothing is wrong with homosexuality, or that the earth is billions of years old.

I know right. Not only are our schools teaching that the earth is billions of years old, but now it seems some Christian websites are teaching the earth and the universe are billions of years old:
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... earth.html
What is the church coming to, when Christians can't see that the plain, literal text of scripture says the earth is young!

I'm more inclined to take umbrage at the suggestion that I "have no idea what <I> am doing" homeschooling my children. But, hey, the modern public school system has been around since the mid-19th century, and clearly everything about humanity has been better since then. I mean, prior to that everyone was just stupid (well, you couldn't blame them. They didn't have public schools! All they had were parents and small trade groups who just had "no idea what they [were] doing"!).

ClassicalTeacher wrote:I would like to start or be a part of a discussion about Christian education vs. public school education. Where would be the best place to start such a discussion? Or is that kind of a discussion allowed?

Each individual must make an informed choice on this matter in the USA. I cannot speak for other countries regarding this.

One must realize that for years now the US Public Educational System has redefined words and concepts in order to bring about planned social change, which certain powers that be claim that this must be done for the greatest good to the greatest number of people yet born. I don't not recall which political philosophic ideology that actually goes into great lengths as to why it is important to change word meanings and even Math's objective nature. Maybe someone here recalls it - so please let us know.

Things have changed and you will hear arguments against Christianity, Theist, based upon this change in words. Let me give you a few examples:

At one time Tolerance, Acceptance, and Respect once meant: the ability, consideration, or willingness to tolerate, respect the existence of opinions or behavior that one does not necessarily agree with. Embracing people for who they are as human beings – not necessarily for what they do or say. You know the saying: Love the sinner – hate the sin captures what I mean here.

People can Tolerate, Accept, and Respect others without necessarily agreeing with them or their modes of behavior or ideas, philosophies of life. Thru the pubic education system the words - Tolerance, acceptance, respect now means: accepting that each persons’ or groups beliefs, lifestyles, and truth claims are equal and of the same value as anyone's else (except of course Christianity). To be Tolerant, Accepting, and Respecting now means one must whole hardily approve of others beliefs and lifestyle choices without question and defend them. Or else you face pubic ridicule as not being fair or enlightened. You can now face jail time, or legal censure for not demonstrating tolerance to certain groups whom don't agree with

Moral Judgments once meant: certain things are right because they are right period and wrong period. Folks may not agree on the Ten Commandments as coming from God, but at one time people knew that stealing, adultery, envy, coveting, etc, were wrong because they were wrong - period.

Now Moral judgments defined as being determined by cultural/social/determinism based upon popular opinion based on the new concepts of respect/acceptance, and tolerance. In other words, we have no right to make a moral judgment as that is mean spirited. Moral Relativism pervades now as the highest good... and deepest mark of intelligence and enlightenment. Common sense is tossed out the door of reason.

Truth once meant : there is an objective standard of truth or truth is objective...

Truth now is defined as whatever is right for you or – truth is based solely on personal beliefs – not in anything objectively defined.

People are taught this in schools and Universities about truth – Truth is redefined as - What I believe it is right because I simply believe it so.

Reason and factual consequences are tossed out the door. You hear Governing officials say - I believe it will work so it doesn't matter about the facts you see that show it is not working - it is right based upon my belief that steers the boat in the direction I want. So I'll close the open area malls, memorials, close the ocean, hurt as many peoples I want too to get what I want ...

A person’s Personal Preference once meant: Such preferences as color, taste, style, hobbies etc are personally determined by each person, and the Concept of Rights once meant: that these were determined under the law and all treated fairly under the law of our land of our US Constitution.

Personal preference no longer means someone’s taste for colors and ice cream but now are re-defined as human preferences concerning sexual orientation, values, and beliefs that are all individually determined and no one has a right to judge another Personal Preferences, as wrong that are proven and based upon empirical facts. Likewise, Rights no longer mean people treated equal under the law and US Constitution but rather that the matter of one’s personal preferences creates now new rights to use to bash the existing social order into submission...

Taxes now mean an exchange. You pay out and receive benefits in return, after all the fire department and police are their for your protection and you must pay up so you'll receive their benefit. It is an exchange - you pay and government will take care of your womb to tomb. (The Womb can become a tomb to avert excess population that burdens the state expenditures all under a woman's personal rights - get it?). Etc and etc...

Taxes once meant to supply empirical needs to better roads, infrastructure, maintain a military for common defense, social protection from criminal acts and protection of citizens - not as an exchange to get something in an exchange in order to buy votes that would lead to the eventual dissolving of the US Constitution and our Bill of Rights into a one Party Rule of central planners to determine right and wrong. Taxes once had empirical value for promoting national stability but now they are viewed as an exchange for whims and wishes.

I could go on. What we are dealing with in public education is a new way of thinking that infects people’s world view believing they can usher in a new utopia based upon central planning whims...

Public Education is decidedly against home schooling or privet schooling for the masses because it is far easier to govern an dumb down populace rather than an educated one.

We have been in a new era for sometime now...
-
-
-

Jac3510 wrote: I'm more inclined to take umbrage at the suggestion that I "have no idea what <I> am doing" homeschooling my children. But, hey, the modern public school system has been around since the mid-19th century, and clearly everything about humanity has been better since then. I mean, prior to that everyone was just stupid (well, you couldn't blame them. They didn't have public schools! All they had were parents and small trade groups who just had "no idea what they [were] doing"!).

Some parents don't know what they're doing, and do more harm than good trying. Actually, not knowing how is probably second on the list of problems of homeschooling. A larger one is parents not wanting or being able to put in the time and effort required. Most parents today cannot be bothered to keep up with what their children do in public schools. Do you think they would be able to keep their child focused on learning every day for hours at a time? Home tutors are a good alternative for those who can afford them.

People talk about the schools like they are broken and can be fixed. Untrue. They are doing what they were designed to do; dumb us down so we can work but not think deeply enough to question those in power. You will never see children of the powerful at a public school unless they are also being taught at home.

Sorry for not getting back for a week. Weekends are usually my best time for participating in discussion forums, but last weekend was the San Jose Half Marathon, in which I walked (3:11:38 finishing time).

... And they are one day going to have to deal with it, live in it, and work in it. How do you think isolating them in your little Christian cocoon is going to prepare them for that? How are they going to know how to deal with people whom don’t share their worldview?

I've already commented on the isolation stereotype in my post a week ago. In that lengthy list of stuff homeschoolers do – some in the homeschooling community, some among Christians generally, some in the community at large – I forgot some of the ordinary stuff, like playing with neighbor kids, extended family gatherings, playing at public parks, volunteering with community service organizations, karate (and other martial arts) classes, classes at the YMCA or Boys & Girls Club, youth or sports camps, part-time jobs, and more. The bottom line is that few, if any, real-world homeschooling families would think of isolating their children: not academically, by truly going it alone; not socially, by isolating either in the nuclear family or among Christians of similar views. I don't think even the most adamant “Dare to Shelter” people advocate – let alone attempt – such isolation. But I don't need to somehow prove that no homeschooling family does such a thing – impossible for me, as I've only known 1000 or 1500 homeschooling families. For the sake of discussion, I will stipulate (contrary to my limited experience) that some disciples of Jonathan Lindvall do indeed bubble-wrap their homeschooled children in a “Christian cocoon”. Based on my experience with the hundreds of homeschooling families I know, based on the scores or hundreds of presentations at 10-20 homeschooling conventions that I've heard or seen described in syllabi, based on the booths and materials available in homeschooling convention exhibit halls, based on the presentations at seminars for homeschool group leaders, disciples of Lindvall and similar sheltering advocates are a small percentage of Christian homeschoolers (and, obviously, Lindvall, et al, would have no following at all among secular homeschoolers and those of other religions), and of very limited influence.

Flipping to the “positive”, obverse, side of the coin – what real-world homeschoolers actually do – opportunities to and means of preparing homeschooled children for working and living in the real world abound, to put it mildly. Starting from the home outward, those opportunities begin with the family's chosen curricular and educational materials. In Science, even the most Fundamentalist-YEC publishers such as A Beka and Bob Jones University Press (I hope no one will try playing the race card regarding BJUP; this isn't the 1950s, and I've been around that barn before) give age-appropriate, accurate, descriptions of the Theory of Evolution. As with apologetics dealing with any topic, one must understand what one answers, and integrity is a serious consideration. I should also ention that, besides being popular curricula among Christian hoimeschoolers, A Beka and BJUP are also very common in campus-based Christian private schools. It should be so obvious that I should not have to mention it, but Literature is a wide open field! Trust me, homechooling families don't confine their children's reading to The Chronicles of Narnia! My younger daughter was reading – her choice, not forced on her – Shakespeare and Dostoyevsky at age 12 and 13. Virtually any fiction – including that of C. S. Lewis – brings the reader into contact with a myriad of practical and even challenging life issues. The same can be said of most non-fiction.

Moving outside of the home – another “I shouldn't have to point this out” topic – interaction with people at church and the community generally brings homeschooled children face-to-face with all kinds of people and manners of life. E.G., can one paint and decorate at a home for unwed mothers without giving thought to the life choices that brought those women there, and the life responsibilities ahead of them? E.G., while playing at a nearby park, my then ~10YO daughter engaged in a conversation with the parents of a large, young, family. Their oldest attended a Catholic private school. They knew they could afford sending their next oldest there as well, but not all their children. They were very interested in learning the practical side of homeschooling from a child who was being homeschooled, and decided that homeschooling was a good fit for their family (I think they homeschooled their children through high school).

I alluded to this somewhat in my previous post, but homeschoolers take advantage of special educational opportunities (nothing unusual in that, but germane as a response to the isolation-cocoon stereotype). For example, several Creation ministries offer multiple-day seminars for both parents and children. I realize some such ministries are routinely denigrated, even by some Christians here, but as I pointed out above, answering an idea and personal integrity entail accurately describing that idea. Back to my point, you'll find homeschoolers – children and parents – at those presentation. Churches and Christian camps similarly deal with practical apologetics and life issues. Moving beyond the local community, there are national “camps” for Christian youth, such as Worldview Academy and Summit Ministries. These also deal with apologetics and life issues. WVA also does weekend seminar presentation, along the lines of the seminars put on by various Creation ministries. Part of the “camp” that WVA does involves a large part of a day of witnessing – you know, dealing with the objections and concerns of real-world people – on the commons areas of nearby public university campuses.

Still farther afield, many churches and many missions/relief organizations have programs that take high school youth (and college students) on outreaches. This can range from working for several days or a week at a homeless shelter to a dirt-under-the-finger-nails work and outreach to another country. E.G., my younger daughter did week-long floor stripping-and-waxing, hung sheet rock and did landscaping at an orphanage-school in Mexico as well as evening outreaches in a nearby migrant worker village. At age 14 she went on an outreach to Asia with a group from our church. She now, as part of her work with Youth With A Mission, has lead several 2-month outreaches to several Asian and African countries (I could name the countries, but do not for reasons that should be obvious). As I mentioned in my previous post, her older sister did a Discipleship Training School with YWAM – four months of lecture and service on-base and in the local community plus 2 months' outreach in Fiji. Whether it's working at a homeless shelter or slogging through the mud going from village to village or going door-to-door in the Fijian capital (and more) homeschooled youth could hardly come into contact with life more real than all that!

I'll reiterate something I said in my previous post. As in that post, many of the things I listed above without specifically stating so were experience Mrs. S in CA and I specifically chose for our children – with their interest and concurrence. ”Christian cocoon” may make for colorful rhetoric, but the real world of homeschooling is elsewhere and far more broad!

If one’s available schools are safe and academically solid, when they are exposed to things or ideas you find threatening, why not use such situations as teachable moments.

Many Christian parents do, and those who devote more than casual energy and effort to doing so are doing what homeschoolers call “after-schooling”. Having said that, I would pose a couple questions from a different perspective. Why try to counteract, with much more limited time, when both parents and child(ren) are tired at the end of a day and when the child(ren) have their minds focused on assigned homework ideas the child(ren)'s teacher(s) have hours at the best and freshest part of the child(ren)'s day to teach? Further in that reality, the teacher has the initiative, the parents may or may not learn the specifics of what is being taught, and are generally reacting. Second, how have parents not undermined and continue to undermine any responsive teaching they might attempt by sending and subjecting their child(ren) to the authority and teaching of the school and the very teacher to whom they are attempting to respond?

As is the case with the “classic” S Question – “What about Socialization?” – homeschoolers have heard and answered these supposedly challenging objections for two and more decades.

How does anyone think they are giving their children the tools to do that if they isolate them in an artificial, protective environment? Many will be in shock and have great social discomfort if they leave your home and hit the real world. Many won’t be prepared. How could they be?

More of the Isolation Stereotype. I've said enough – probably painfully so – in response to this idea, for now. But it's worth pointing out just how much your article invokes this stereotype-myth. When such a large edifice of argument gets built on an almost entirely illusory foundation, the argument is unsound.

UNLESS one’s public school options are significantly academically deficient or well-known to be dangerous, consistently utilizing morally objectionable curriculum content, or prohibitively distant and/or truly inconvenient (or otherwise logistically impossible) for your schedule, you should seriously and prayerfully consider the societal costs of long-term homeschooling. Whenever good schools are available, and Christians in massive numbers choose to homeschool their children, there are some very negative spiritual/societal repercussions.

Other than being currently the most commonly chosen education options, I don't see why you assume public schools and campus-based private schools to be the standard, with homeschooling being a sort of educational escape hatch. You assume that for which you have offered no evidence. Historically parents doing much of their children's education at home was commonly done (i.e., part of “normal”) for multiple millennia. The shift of education away from the home as part of “normal” has been a relatively recent trend. As for the supposed “very negative spiritual/societal repercussions” you invoke, been there, answered that.

Obviously there's more to you article, but the above was another ~2 1/2 hours' composition, so ...

Please don't take my general observations as an attack on homeschooling. But many of what you mention are very supervised activities where little interaction and playing out of or discussing world views occurs. There's not a lot of one-on-one in many of these activities - certainly not isolated ones or where the parameters are not constantly controlled or monitored by adults. For kids, the real learning about others different than yourself occurs in the corners, on the playgrounds - wherever and whenever adults aren't constantly listening and watching and the atmosphere and the environment isn't controlled.

A.) I think you overstate the narrowness of interactions that happen in many of those circumstances. Many of those activities include fairly long "break times" in which children interact rather freely. And in events such as Scout camp-outs or hikes, the boys and girls have literally hours to discuss among themselves whatever comes to mind. B. I was responding to two related ideas: that homeschoolers isolate their children from other people generally; that homeschoolers isolate their children from circumstances in which their views would be questioned. So the more tightly programmed examples I listed would apply to the first of those two mistaken ideas. I assumed people who read my post would recognize my purposes and how the activities I listed were responsive to one or the other mistaken idea. Maybe I assumed too much or was insufficiently clear. C. My list may have been exhausting to read, but it was far from exhaustive. I assumed readers of my post would understand I was listing examples, not a complete list of such activities and opportunities. To be frank, I thought that assumption quite reasonable, and still do. Anyway, my post earlier this AM lists several more types of activities. While I had not yet read your post, the many of the activities I listed this AM either offer considerable unprogrammed time or are unprogrammed general life experiences. D. As I pointed out in detail this AM - and I assumed readers of my previous post would know and/or realize - even programmed instruction devotes time to learning, understanding and learning how to respond to opposing ideas, often with fairly wide-ranging time for discussion programmed into the instruction.

The bottom line is that, no matter how deep one digs, the two stereotypes-myths of homeschooler isolation cannot withstand comparison to reality, and the deeper one examines what real-life homeschoolers actually do, the sillier the isolation stereotypes-myths are shown to be. Then too, I've been posting about the experiences of ordinary homeschooling families. I haven't had to invoke Cover of "The Teaching Home" families or highly public persons such as Lila Rose (who was homeschooled K-12, I believe). When I consider all the homeschooled Eagle Scouts I've known (my son being one) and what it takes to earn Eagle rank, when I consider that my son was an assistant manager at his job at or before age 17, when I "see" my daughter reaching out to people from cultures and religions all over the world, when I "see" her leading outreach groups to other countries and teaching YWAM students, when I "see" my other daughter teaching preschoolers and working with their parents of a wide variety of nationalities and cultures/religions (that's what life here in Silicon Valley is like ... a racist's - not relevant to this discussion, obviously - or an isolated person's nightmare!), when I "see" my son working with people of a wide variety of nationalities/cultures here and in other countries, the isolated homeschooler stereotypes-myths are almost too silly to have enough substance to be hollow.

I agree Philip. Kids need to interact in the real world. Unless of course parents are homeschooling to prepare their children for working from home.

Seriously? My son has worked outside of the home since he was age 16 and, as I mentioned above, was an assistant manager at his work at or before age 17. He has a degree in Business from San Jose State, had a paid internship at a company in Hong Kong and went straight from Hong Kong to training in Bangalore, India for his new job. His fiance' was born in New Zealand to parents who came from Singapore. His older sister, as I mentioned above, spent two months in Fiji, and has worked in preschools for some years now with staff, management and students' from a large number of Asian, Central American and South American countries. His younger sister, well just read my post above. All of my kids have each spent weeks working and ministering in time zones as far away as the other side of the International Dateline from their home. How can they be further from working at home without leaving this planet? And, trust me, they are not prodigies or unusual among formerly homeschooled young adults!

The main problem that people have home schooling their own children is they have no idea what they are doing. Like running a home business, it takes a lot of investment, not just a little knowledge.

p34l, that's a rather broad generalization! How many homeschooling families have you known? As I posted earlier this AM, I've known somewhere between 1000 and 1500 homeschooling families (and my post last week mentions the contexts through/in which I met them). I literally have not met a homeschooling family that was failing at it, and the one family I recall who went with PS after homeschooling for a year or two were not failing (their children were fine academically). But, taking a step back, as I mentioned this AM and last week, families have been teaching their children Reading, Math, History, Geography, Science and (in some cases) Theology for millennia. Did something happen to the human genome in the 19th or 20th Century to render parents incapable of doing the same? Or was there a crisis of self-intimidation and lack of confidence? I think it was the latter.

Jac3510 wrote:

RickD wrote:

pat34lee wrote:The main problem that people have home schooling their own children is they have no idea what they are doing. Like running a home business, it takes a lot of investment, not just a little knowledge. For most children, it would probably be better to attend public or private school, as long as the parent is involved in what the child learns daily, not every once in a while. That way the parent can counter any teachings immediately that are against their beliefs. Its a little late when they've been taught several years that nothing is wrong with homosexuality, or that the earth is billions of years old.

I know right. Not only are our schools teaching that the earth is billions of years old, but now it seems some Christian websites are teaching the earth and the universe are billions of years old:
http://www.godandscience.org/youngearth ... earth.html
What is the church coming to, when Christians can't see that the plain, literal text of scripture says the earth is young!

I'm more inclined to take umbrage at the suggestion that I "have no idea what <I> am doing" homeschooling my children. But, hey, the modern public school system has been around since the mid-19th century, and clearly everything about humanity has been better since then. I mean, prior to that everyone was just stupid (well, you couldn't blame them. They didn't have public schools! All they had were parents and small trade groups who just had "no idea what they [were] doing"!).

Are you, perchance, homeschooling your children?

What can I say? The twin hazards of broad-brush condemnations of homeschooling or claiming there are "very negative spiritual/societal repercussions" or posing largely hypothetical objections to homeschooling are finding oneself talking to some one who is homeschooling or has homeschooled.

For some one curious about the kinds of problems and concerns of real homeschoolers, there are more difficult ways of finding out and less informative places to learn than nosing around the discussion forum at HomeschoolChristian.com. I don't believe I've posted there in the past year, so there's no "set-up" situation there.