Evidence for God from Science

DowTingTom wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote: It is NOT about His death but His Resurrection.
It was His resurrection that drew "all" to Him and reconciled Man with God though Christ.
You are focusing on His death and WHY it had to happen and the fact is that death HAD to happen for the resurrection to happen.
Christianity is not just about the death of Christ, Christianity is ALL about the resurrection of Christ.
As Paul said, If Christ was not resurrected, there is no justification or salvation.

Christ had to die so that we all may live in Him through His resurrection.

It was His resurrection that draws all and saves all those that believe.

Now that's an interesting approach - thanks.

I wonder though what the mechanism that meant that the resurrection made 'reconciliation' between people and the God that loves them possible? It's a different angle, but the same fundamental question applies.

I mean God had brought people back from the dead before, so it can't be simply bringing back the dead that made it possible, can it?

And to be honest, the whole sacrifice to forgive thing is putting me off, not drawing me in.

Yes, I can understand your view since, I myself, felt the same way at one time.
The sacrifice was Christ dying when He could have saved Himself, why He did it was because He had to die to be resurrected and why that had to be was because that was the ONLY way to reconcile the world to HIM, it was the only way to prove that HE was The Son of God and the first resurrected by God AND Himself.
Without the resurrection, Christ was simply another failed messiah and there would be no reason to follow Him or preach His words, which is exactly what was going on (nothing) until He appeared to His followers and they (afterwards) began preaching His Word.

In short, He died because He had to die to be resurrected and it had to happen that way because that was the only way to reconcile all those that heard AND WILL hear His words back to God:
For all those that believe will not be judged, but will have everlasting life.

Believe in what? in who?

CHRIST.

DowTingTom wrote:

B. W. wrote:DowTingTom, did Ross A. McGinnis uselessly die?

WASHINGTON — If there's an opportunity to escape the deadly blast of a grenade, the Army trains soldiers to take it.

When an Iraqi insurgent threw a grenade into the Humvee where Pfc. Ross A. McGinnis manned the machine gun, he had time to jump from the turret and save himself.

On Monday, during a solemn White House ceremony, President Bush presented McGinnis' parents, Tom and Romayne, with a posthumous Medal of Honor for their son, who absorbed the grenade's blast and saved the other men.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/jun/03 ... /na-medal3

In that, is your answer…

For an tried and true atheist, anyone sacrificing themselves for another is a fool…

How do you work that out?

If I was in a situation where I had two choices

a) Die along with four of my friends
b) Die and perhaps save the lives of some or all of my friends

I'd like to think I'd choose b - the outcome for me personally is the same either way - but that's not to dismiss the bravery of the individual written about. If you want me to fulfil your sterotype of a hard hearted atheist I could make some argument that - given that I am doomed - by acting to save my friends I am likely to ensure that at least a few of them will help 'look-out' for my children as they grow up, thereby securing the best chance I can - given the circumstances - of my own genes being passed on through having my children cared for by my partner occasionally supported by trusted friends.

You would rightly object if I suggested that in this situation a religious person might pray and therefore fail to act, or indeed that they ought to pray, or that if they'd prayed in the first place they wouldn't be in the situation.

Equally, it's not valid to make assumptions about how an atheist would act. One can make a pretty strong case that it would be in exactly the same way in the situation linked to, though.

No, not an assumption, but cold hard facts. The highest ideal there can be, if there is NO God, No Accountability, is self preservation – not altruistic acts. That flies in the face of atheistic reason and logic.

Even in the analogy you gave, the motive was – what do I get out of dying – assume they’ll take care of offspring in order to for what? Keep your protagonist’s gene pool going? Selfish reason isn't it? Why bother – if nothing is the final sum all things, then the death of others ensures there will be enough food for the living, more die, more food for those alive.

You are correct – no one can assume how an atheist would react in a situation like that. However, if the atheist did lose his/her life saving others, without any selfish reason/motive involved in the act – what made him/her do that?

Would such an act be right or wrong?

Why?
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The question often arises: How can a loving God kill the first born of Egypt during the Moses’ era in history?

This question and others like do have an answer. Often people are looking for simple talking point answers to question that take more than bullet points. This style of answer serves emotionalism well. So folks stray away, and so often reason is tossed out the door in exchanged for pure emotionalism as true reason. So we need to retain some common sense reason. So to answer this, let’s proceed and actually reason this out – fair enough?

What Principle does Galatians 6:7 set forth about God?

Tell me what event occurred in Exodus 1:6, 8, 10, 11, 13, now look at Exodus 1:15, 22 and what happened?

Who did what to whom first, and next, in light of Gal 6:7 – what was God doing when the Angel of death passed over ancient Egypt the night their first born were slain?

Now of course, people will still object and declare God a moral monster for doing this; therefore, let us dig deeper:

What principle does Eccl 3:11, 14 and 2 Sam 14:14 set forth about God?

What principle does Job 34:10, 11, 12c state?

Read John 14:9 and read Matthew 19:14 what does it say to you?

Read Mark 9:42 and Matthew 18:6, 10…

Based on the evidence here does God send little ones to hell?

The answer is no…

If so… what would God have to do to himself?

Therefore, those firstborn little ones that died, where did they go?

And folks dare call God unjust?

Think of this for a moment – God spared these youngsters from growing up to enforce slavery and oppressive acts against the people of God. If allowed to grow, and slavery remain, how many more would these grown to kill and oppress justified as what good Egyptians do?

Have you considered this?

Now, likewise, how many did the ancient Egyptians murder around the time of Moses’ birth? How many Joshua’ and Caleb’s were prevented from convincing the children of Israel that they enter the promise land? Answer – we don’t know.

You have two cultures – One, being the ancient Egyptians who molded their own to become oppressors and the Israelite who through oppression were being beaten down so much that if continued, they would cease. You have Godly liberty verses oppression at stake in the lives of free moral agents. You have then as it is today, the world and its system declaring God weak and spineless and unable to keep his word by pitting God’s on nature of justice, compassion, patience, etc and etc, against God himself i.e. gaming God.

What’s God to do to restore order justly?

You see, God’s ways are way beyond our own, yet, we demand that he acts just like we do. Is your judgment doing so regard this matter? How can that be fair to avoid how God see's and does things?

Look how humanity justify the murder of abortion, never realizing how many future folks were never permitted to invent cures of incurable diseases, never permitted in a living way, for God to use to provide some benefit for humanity. Like the ancients, we teach our young that oppression is okay, violence the norm, it’s okay to abort babies, okay to lust, that greed is okay, adultery and sexual immoral acts are the norm and greatest expression of good, and that jealousy, revenge – the greatest good, theft of faith in God alone a moral imperative, and a host of other things that all our good deeds cannot cover nor hide.

What’s God to do to restore order out of this chaos justly to all, all in accordance to his own nature and attributes, words, and gifts, and promises to humanity? Have you even looked into this matter honestly or is your mind made up that God must die in order for humanity to live?

Would a, blind, I forgive you, from God stop it?

Or would an event that demonstrated that defined what human sin really is and then die in one’s place for our acts have more of an impact to arrest people to stop moral relativistic decay’s fruits?

Imagine being pushed off a subway platform, the train’s head light rushing toward you. You lay injured from the fall and one person jumps down and lifts you into the arm of his friends, midst a jeering crowd (more food for us, yeah!). Last thing you see is a smile just before the train smashes your rescuer to pieces. Would that have any impact upon your life? Imagine if he came back from the dead to help you rescue others from the jeering crowds? Wouldn't that cement a change in person?

Or, imagine being pushed off a subway platform, the train’s head light rushing toward you. You lay injured from the fall. Some voice over the loud speaker booms to the crowd,” hey you all are forgiven for pushing that guy off the platform…”

Wouldn’t that serve to justify that it is okay for the masses to continue do wrong with no impact to avert and save those fallen injured upon the tracks?

Where have you gone wrong in you reasoning and what does it seek to justify?

This opens the door for you who honestly doubt to begin to reason, intelligently about who and what God is actually like in dealing justly to all. Job 34:11, 12, Nahum 1:3. Luke 5:21, John 3:14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21. 36c

What does Romans 5:10, 11, 17 say to you?

1 Peter 2:9, 2 Cor 1:3, 4 why have you strayed into a mod of thinking that no longer permits helping those the Lord lifts into your care on life’s subway platform?

What does it say about you?

Some of you claim to have lost faith. I challenge that, it is that you lost faith in people within the church, lost faith because of some really bad faith doctrine, motivated by fear of asking hard questions, held hostage to the cultic brainwashing imposed by progressivism in schools and shouted daily from the media... What you lost faith in is people - easy to do. Can't understand why a loved one died, why prayers don't get answered. You have become wounded and hurt.

The fact remains - you're injured upon the track. The Lord is trying to lift you into the arms of His friends midst the jeering crowds. There are answer and some of these will take time and actual honest intellectual reason about seeing things from God's perspective. Our collective problem is viewing things from our own perspective, quickly joining a lynch mob, not looking at things from God whose ways are not or own Isaiah 55:8.

Here is what he desires to do for you - Isaiah 61:1, 2, 3, 4
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That's a long post, and I've failed in my attempt to reply to all of it without making my post pages long.

So here's my reply to the first bit, on which the rest of your post 'hangs'

What Principle does Galatians 6:7 set forth about God?

(Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.)

The passage appears to say that God is not mocked. This is also true of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Tell me what event occurred in Exodus 1:6, 8, 10, 11, 13, now look at Exodus 1:15, 22 and what happened?

Exodus 1:6 - Joseph and his entire generation died.

Exodus 1:8 - Egypt has a new king who doesn't know Joseph. Because he's dead, I presume.

Exodus 1:10 The new king notices there are more Hebrews than Egyptians and suggest they deal with them "wisely" in case they fight against the Egyptians in some futire war.

Exodus 1:11 to 13 Despite the king's fears that the larger number of Hebrews would be a threat, he somehow (seemingly effortlessly) enslaves them so they are "afflicted with hard labour" It is not clear why God allowed this to happen when presumably the Hebrew people - the ones god claims to prefer - prayed to prevent it.

Exodus 1 15 and 22 - Pharaoh told the midwives to kill all the male babies of the Hebrews, but they didn't do so, and lied to Pharaoh as to why not, and God rewarded the midwives. So Pharaoh told the Egypt people to throw Hebrew boys into the Nile instead.

So we have a situation in which a megalomaniacal human sinner has unilaterally decided that all the male children of a particular race should be killed as soon as they are born. The correct term for this is genocide.

God does nothing at all to help these children. He could have 'softened' Pharaoh's heart and alleviated the suffering of both the children and their parents, and made the world a better place. But he didn't. You might argue that God could not intervene to soften Pharaoh's heart because he gave us free will, but then you'd have to explain why then God intervened to harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 9. If God can intervene to make Pharaoh behave in a way that makes the situation worse, why did he not intervene to make it better?

You appear to be using the Galatian's passage ("what you sow, so you shall reap") to justify an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God slaughtering the first born males of Egypt like he is a seven year old in a playground fight. Frankly, if the best moral defence of God committing genocide is "but he started it!" then God is in a bad way, especially when God has shown that he is willing and able to override the free will of Pharaoh by "hardening" his heart.

And of course, by this stage of the bible God had already drowned everything on earth that breathes air apart from those on the Ark ...

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Part One of Two of a long post:

DowTingTom wrote:That's a long post, and I've failed in my attempt to reply to all of it without making my post pages long.

So here's my reply to the first bit, on which the rest of your post 'hangs'

What Principle does Galatians 6:7 set forth about God?

(Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.)

The passage appears to say that God is not mocked. This is also true of The Flying Spaghetti Monster.

It appears that you cannot read or grasp the written language very well.

Job 34:10, 11, "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 "For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way." NASB

Jeremiah 32:19-20 "...great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds; 17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right. 18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." NASB

Mat 16:27, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." NASB

DowTingTom, Sounds like you are the one mocking God. Now if God forced and made you by FORCE to stop mocking him, as you suggested HE must do, and compose the same force to stop Pharaoh from killing the Israelite babies, how can that really be defined as acting justly in the absolute way that is fair to all?

DowTingTom wrote:Tell me what event occurred in Exodus 1:6, 8, 10, 11, 13, now look at Exodus 1:15, 22 and what happened?

Exodus 1:6 - Joseph and his entire generation died.

Exodus 1:8 - Egypt has a new king who doesn't know Joseph. Because he's dead, I presume.

Exodus 1:10 The new king notices there are more Hebrews than Egyptians and suggest they deal with them "wisely" in case they fight against the Egyptians in some futire war.

Exodus 1:11 to 13 Despite the king's fears that the larger number of Hebrews would be a threat, he somehow (seemingly effortlessly) enslaves them so they are "afflicted with hard labour" It is not clear why God allowed this to happen when presumably the Hebrew people - the ones god claims to prefer - prayed to prevent it.

Exodus 1 15 and 22 - Pharaoh told the midwives to kill all the male babies of the Hebrews, but they didn't do so, and lied to Pharaoh as to why not, and God rewarded the midwives. So Pharaoh told the Egypt people to throw Hebrew boys into the Nile instead.

So we have a situation in which a megalomaniacal human sinner has unilaterally decided that all the male children of a particular race should be killed as soon as they are born. The correct term for this is genocide.

God does nothing at all to help these children. He could have 'softened' Pharaoh's heart and alleviated the suffering of both the children and their parents, and made the world a better place. But he didn't. You might argue that God could not intervene to soften Pharaoh's heart because he gave us free will, but then you'd have to explain why then God intervened to harden Pharaoh's heart in Exodus 9. If God can intervene to make Pharaoh behave in a way that makes the situation worse, why did he not intervene to make it better?

DowTingTom, sounds like you are the one mocking God. Now if God forced and made you by FORCE to stop mocking him, as you suggested HE must do, and compose the same force to stop Pharaoh from killing the Israelite babies, how can that really be defined as acting justly toward all in the absolute sense?

You are making the case that God must use brute force, to change people, and then in the same breath condemn him if he did. Such brute force, you require, in order for you to even to begin to think remotely that might God exist, such tyranny by God would be an unjust act. You have not considered that, have you?

How could God acting like you desire him to act be unjust? It would be unjust toward the gift and promises spoken by God to all Humanity, unjust to those God made with wisdom, understanding, and knowledge so that each can govern their own little world, God would be proven unjust, unrighteous, and unable to keep his word, if he reneged.

God spoke and gave his word that humanity can exercise dominion over the earth, and the ability to tend and keep the earth, to exercise the ability to have social relationships with each other, etc. This shows forth the justice of God in allowing people the ability to think and reason independently. Even foreknowing, humanity would abuse his (God’s) own gifting, did not stop God from granting liberty.

Why should it? Being all powerful, includes the ability to be able to work through all things, justly proving God true to his own promises no matter what meddling free agents try to thwart God's plan (Rev 21:1-5).

You, on the other hand bemoan that God let’s people live as they will, enslaving, killing, robbing, bring ruin, and when God does actually stop this by use of force you cite him as a moral monster for doing so!!!

God will not bow to you. He will let you exercise the gifting He endowed you with, and let you continue to mock Him. The great item about God is, that He is Just in letting you do this and not stopping you, while also providing an escape from being held accountable for this, by Christ’s work on that Cross, so that you can be forgiven of your prideful insolence if you but surrender.

God offers a choice. Which way will folks live? He lets them live the way they choose. Holds them to account and deals with all things Justly. Even to his-own hurt.

Now re-read Gal 6:7 again…

Look at your next comment below and how it seeks to pit God’s just character against itself…thus proving my point stated above…

DowTingTom wrote:You appear to be using the Galatians’ passage ("what you sow, so you shall reap") to justify an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God slaughtering the first born males of Egypt like he is a seven year old in a playground fight. Frankly, if the best moral defense of God committing genocide is "but he started it!" then God is in a bad way, especially when God has shown that he is willing and able to override the free will of Pharaoh by "hardening" his heart.

And of course, by this stage of the bible God had already drowned everything on earth that breathes air apart from those on the Ark ...

Gen 6:5, Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

God fashioned humanity as eternal beings…

Eccl 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart...

He cannot be guilty of genocide since all live on eternally, can He?

Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Job 34:10, 11, "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 "For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way." NASB

Jeremiah 32:19-20, "...great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds; 17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right.

18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." NASB

Mat 16:27, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." NASB

Without offering a choice, yes, God would be unjust and unloving.

You asked: Why did Jesus have to die?

The answer: to offer you a choice...

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." NASB
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Part Two Below:

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Part Two

DowTingTom wrote:You appear to be using the Galatians’ passage ("what you sow, so you shall reap") to justify an all knowing, all loving, all powerful God slaughtering the first born males of Egypt like he is a seven year old in a playground fight. Frankly, if the best moral defense of God committing genocide is "but he started it!" then God is in a bad way, especially when God has shown that he is willing and able to override the free will of Pharaoh by "hardening" his heart.

And of course, by this stage of the bible God had already drowned everything on earth that breathes air apart from those on the Ark ...

Your comment reveals more of an ax to grind with Hard Core Calvinism concerning God hardening Pharaohs Heart. Yet, you claim to have been a Christian and not know that all people’s hearts are already hardened toward God by fallen human nature. Look at Jer 17:9 and what John 6:64 reveals.

God knows way in advance who will believe and who will betray. Yet, he still offers a choice to all. God certainly knew Pharaoh would betray him way in advance so why can’t He do with such however He so wills?

Pharaoh was no sweet innocent victim, but someone who thought he was better than God because of his godlike intellectual superiority. God made a spectacle out of him, so what? That’s God objective lesson to others who’s hard hearts boast in their–own intellectual superiority.

God offers a choice even to them, even foreknowing, they will ultimately reject him. You see, God is impartial. He gave human beings the ability to exercise intelligence, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, with liberty. To take that away by force would prove God incapable of actually being all powerful, and all that He is. He cannot deny himself.

You have never considered this other than in ways that attempt to entrap God and indict Him all evil and wrong. Yet, you beg God to take away that liberty, come down off the cross; so that you might possibly believe enough to put him in a tomb. The Lord has been there, done that, already for you and I.

He exposes sin, and offers to all just too simply believe in his grace shown on the Cross that proves He actually forgives. In this, you are not wise because forgiveness is not a simple nod, or wave of a hand, it is the releasing one of the debt of stored wrath proven by what Jesus accomplished upon the Cross and Resurrection. In this way, God releases from this debt those he knows will believe in him (Actively) from those that would betray him.

We were fashioned as eternal beings as the principle in 2 Sam 14:14 states and Eccl 3:11-22 speak of. Those that betray will not be allowed to reside with God as Isaiah 26:10 states: they cannot behold God’s majesty without thinking of the means to overthrow it by pitting God’s own character traits against each other. Demanding God must do things their way, or else. The same as you are proving here, in your writings, are so doing now. He is offering you a choice, till the day you enter eternity, after that, you are sealed. That is fair, isn’t it?

B. W. wrote: Gen 6:5, Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 The LORD said, "I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them." 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Heb 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

God fashioned humanity as eternal beings…

Eccl 3:11 He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart...

He cannot be guilty of genocide since all live on eternally, can He?

Heb 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Job 34:10, 11, "Therefore, listen to me, you men of understanding. Far be it from God to do wickedness, And from the Almighty to do wrong. 11 "For He pays a man according to his work, And makes him find it according to his way." NASB

Jeremiah 32:19-20, "...(God) great in counsel and mighty in deed, whose eyes are open to all the ways of the sons of men, giving to everyone according to his ways and according to the fruit of his deeds; 17 "Yet your fellow citizens say, 'The way of the Lord is not right,' when it is their own way that is not right.

18 "When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, then he shall die in it. 19 "But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and practices justice and righteousness, he will live by them. 20 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways." NASB

Mat 16:27, "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." NASB

Without offering a choice, yes, God would be unjust and unloving.

You asked: Why did Jesus have to die?

The answer: to offer you a choice...

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
John 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
John 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." NASB

And Romans 2:1-8 from the NKJV states this:

Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath... NKJV
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I like reading your posts, BW...

I am now reading Luke 2 and this I find suitable here:

Luke 2:35
"and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

... that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed ...

Why did Jesus come and die?

-He come in a mission of finally calling us to be Perfect.
Lk. 13:6 Then he told this parable: “A man had a fig-tree, planted in his vineyard, and he went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any.
Lk. 13:7 So he said to the man who took care of the vineyard, `For three years now I’ve been coming to look for fruit on this figtree and haven’t found any. Cut it down! Why should it use up the soil?’
Lk. 13:8 “`Sir,’ the man replied, `leave it alone for one more year, and I’ll dig round it and fertilise it.
Lk. 13:9 If it bears fruit next year, fine! If not, then cut it down.’“

-Why Jesus had to die? and so do we.
Jn. 12:24 I tell you the truth, unless a grain of wheat falls to the groundand dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
1Co. 15:50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

1over137 wrote:I am now reading Luke 2 and this I find suitable here:

Luke 2:35
"and a sword will pierce even your own soul—to the end that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed.”

... that thoughts from many hearts may be revealed ...

Yes - many hearts revealed and now read Jeremiah 17:9, 10

Amazing isn't it?

I'll probably get into more hot water saying this but I admire the Old Calvinist traditions and the good brought forth from the Reformed branch of the body of Christ. There are many solid truths in that branch of the body of Christ, yet, also resides a stumbling block to faith as well. As with any Christian group, we are all prone to mistakes, and in need of correction and reformation. Calvinism needs such reformation as it causes, for folks like DowTingTom for example, to arm them with anti-faith.

Such folks have more of an ax to grind with what Calvinism has evolved into, rather than what the bible teaches on subjects such as predestination, election, children's eternal destinies. I admire St Augustine because he was able to expound many bible truths accurately but strayed into a error concerning a few issues that John Calvin centuries later built upon. We are human beings and can still err. That is why the Lord needs to correct us often and for us to remain humble. God is not limited to Calvinistic theological thought and neither is He limited to Arminian theological thought. The richness of what God has theologically supersedes what these two fighting parts of the body of Christ have.

Let us seek the Lord and find out what he has - test all things.
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