Christians rejecting the Old Testament

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

And you honestly don't have a problem with saying this, as a believer?

No rick, why should I? What does it change in my love for god or Christ or God's love for me? Please tell me.

Which Christ, Neo? Not the Christ of the bible. He's not even real. You can't convince me. The bible says Adam brought sin and death into the world of humanity. The bible also says Christ redeemed man from sin and death. But since you say Adam never did that, why should I believe you about your Christ? Do you see my point yet?

[Gman]

Which Christ, Neo? Not the Christ of the bible. He's not even real. You can't convince me. The bible says Adam brought sin and death into the world of humanity. The bible also says Christ redeemed man from sin and death. But since you say Adam never did that, why should I believe you about your Christ? Do you see my point yet?

Right on Rick... Christ redeemed man from sin and death. If you take that away, you take away the Gospel. Actually it's the Muslim belief that there was no original sin, hence no need for a savior. Don't fall into their trap.

[RickD]

Which Christ, Neo? Not the Christ of the bible. He's not even real. You can't convince me. The bible says Adam brought sin and death into the world of humanity. The bible also says Christ redeemed man from sin and death. But since you say Adam never did that, why should I believe you about your Christ? Do you see my point yet?

Right on Rick... Christ redeemed man from sin and death. If you take that away, you take away the Gospel. Actually it's the Muslim belief that there was no original sin, hence no need for a savior. Don't fall into their trap.

Hi G,

Actually, I didn't know that about Muslims. What about you Neo? Living in a nation such as you do, did you know that?

[Revolutionary]

We're given the option of choosing a perception.... Is the glass half full or half empty?
And I can't help but entertain the simple knowledge that we have every ability to exist within an expression of extreme abundance (overflowing) for every life and mind, regardless of a 'vessel's' capacity.... Anything less is simply a reflection of denial and ignorance.
Relative to such a reality, the glass we are indulging is currently empty, regardless of what we try to convince ourselves within our choice of perception.

Every mind contains the knowledge necessary for demonstrating that extreme abundance and setting it into motion... All it requires is the realization that we are much more than just a vessel. When we discover the brilliance that we actually contain and set it free, it is a floodgate capable of washing away all the pain that exists.

This isn't indulging in any aspect of belief.
I'm discussing simple logic and reason.... If we taught our children they contained this ability to give to the world in such a way, and never hindered them in their path towards such a realization... That is exactly what they would become, and it would dispel all the doubt that we are currently holding on to.
It is only your doubt now that keeps you from becoming the same!

What do you suppose happens when we tell a child they are sinful, that they are nothing without our love, basically that they are a filthy rag without it?
What happens when we tell a child, that the only way to succeed the world around them is through a savior?

Do you understand how a self fulfilling prophecy operates?

[Byblos]

Do you understand how a self fulfilling prophecy operates?

Is it something like writing an incoherent post in an unrelated thread that will cause a mod to delete it for no reason?

[Byblos]

I see that Byblos but I have no way to reconcile this. I actually have no problem saying that a man called adam may have existed but my problem is he can't be the first human as the scriptures say. The two are connected. He is the first human and he is also made in God's image. I can't say he is real guy and not the first human that would be picking and choosing.

What I know is that to explain the genetic diversity in humans you need a population of at least 10000 individuals, a single couple can't do that. That much is true by science.

The Genesis account is very vague in that respect as i don't know what exactly the words mean, image of god, its not physical i know but we are not perfect either which only tella me that this is a metaphorical phrase not meant to mean anything but the creative or dominant personality of human beings that they share with the divine.

When I reject this, i am saying that humans rose through evolutionary stages. And at some point god introduced himself to us in some way but the discrepancies in Genesis 1 leads me to believe that its not that story for sure.

Scripture may say that one man brought physical death but i know that is wrong by logic and evidence and if i say its spiritual death then i think all humans are born that way, we may resemble the creator but we are never born perfect. Thus the image of god to me is not that humans were created exact replica of God because if you claim that tjen you tell me what it means. Sin is not something which is in genetics. If you say one man brought death you have to tell me how does his imperfect spirit gave birth to his child's imperfect spirit. Reproduction is of the body not ofbthe spirit. Infact in this way i can actually ask you that if god created our spirits then he must create them perfect or else he falls in the same problem you are asking me to clarify.

I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

I don't think I can contribute any more to the subject more than what I already have. Thank you for your honesty Neo.

[Revolutionary]

Do you understand how a self fulfilling prophecy operates?

Is it something like writing an incoherent post in an unrelated thread that will cause a mod to delete it for no reason?

If there is something in it that you can't understand, there is a lovely brilliance to asking a question rather than being rude, it displays our humanity, love and care for someone's understanding and/or lack of understanding.

So what are you confused with, and I'd happily direct relevance and meaning for you.

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

Sorry, I just noticed this too. The fall and the Genesis story don't fit WHAT anymore? Do you mean they don't fit your evolutionary beliefs? Because the story of the fall, and the Genesis story, are still as relevant as ever, to the need for redemption. Unless I can't put two and two together anymore Neo, it seems like you're saying the need for redemption doesn't fit anymore?

[RickD]

Do you understand how a self fulfilling prophecy operates?

Is it something like writing an incoherent post in an unrelated thread that will cause a mod to delete it for no reason?

If there is something in it that you can't understand, there is a lovely brilliance to asking a question rather than being rude, it displays our humanity, love and care for someone's understanding and/or lack of understanding.

So what are you confused with, and I'd happily direct relevance and meaning for you.

Please explain in simple english, for us simple folk, how your post pertains to this thread.

[Byblos]

Do you understand how a self fulfilling prophecy operates?

Is it something like writing an incoherent post in an unrelated thread that will cause a mod to delete it for no reason?

If there is something in it that you can't understand, there is a lovely brilliance to asking a question rather than being rude, it displays our humanity, love and care for someone's understanding and/or lack of understanding.

So what are you confused with, and I'd happily direct relevance and meaning for you.

You're absolutely right, it was a feeble attempt on my part to be humorous and evidently I failed miserably. Please accept my sincerest apologies. I merely thought your post was unrelated to the subject at hand, although it may be more related to the original post than what the thread evolved into. In any case, if I have any questions I will post them in a separate thread so as not to derail this one. Once again, sorry.

[Revolutionary]

Do you understand how a self fulfilling prophecy operates?

Is it something like writing an incoherent post in an unrelated thread that will cause a mod to delete it for no reason?

If there is something in it that you can't understand, there is a lovely brilliance to asking a question rather than being rude, it displays our humanity, love and care for someone's understanding and/or lack of understanding.

So what are you confused with, and I'd happily direct relevance and meaning for you.

Please explain in simple english, for us simple folk, how your post pertains to this thread.

It pertains to the concept of original sin as well as the ongoing discussion concerning free will (several examples given, yet I am shortly accused of derailing a post in my attempt to bring a different viewpoint to it).... The argument (ongoing) is that we are all sinful, and do to this fact, we require a savior in order to be redeemed from said sin.

It's a causal argument that becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Through belief alone, we can never escape it. It's circular, it ensures that there is no solution beyond needing a savior by making that our most important focus.

Now, if there is no possibility of a solution to completely eradicating sin from the expression of humanity, then this is precisely how the arena was designed.
If there is no solution; then logically, the design itself dictates that someone MUST and WILL succumb to it. Through design, if there is no solution; it is the direct will of God that sin exists.

Let's indulge it and agree for a moment to accept that original sin is the unequivocal truth.
Does God prevent us from realizing an expression of humanity that is capable of evolving us beyond said original sin?

If God isn't preventing us from such a realization, logic dictates that there is a solution.... Now, if God chose to direct the mind towards a realization of such a solution, it might have a profoundly different outcome where we don't actually need to be saved.... Instead God has chosen to direct us to a savior, and this is exactly where our focus is drawn... A self fulling prophecy that doesn't seek a solution.

Is this our punishment, being prevented by God from trying to extend beyond it?

[PaulSacramento]

God created the world and it is in need of redemption.
God created Man and he is in need of redemption.
If the bible is "God breathed" ( not a direct creation of God) why is it not possible that it do is in need of redemption and that redemption is Christ, the living Word of God?

That said, I think it is important to try and reconcile the OT with the NT and with what science has proven to be "fact".

[neo-x]

Neo wrote:
I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

And you honestly don't have a problem with saying this, as a believer?

No rick, why should I? What does it change in my love for god or Christ or God's love for me? Please tell me.

Which Christ, Neo? Not the Christ of the bible. He's not even real. You can't convince me. The bible says Adam brought sin and death into the world of humanity. The bible also says Christ redeemed man from sin and death. But since you say Adam never did that, why should I believe you about your Christ? Do you see my point yet?

No rick, i honestly don't. Im trying but im not seeing it. What does this has to do with Christ identity?

[Revolutionary]

If the outcome is already written, and what is written is what we are commanded to believe.... Where does free will even exist but within the confines of chosing whether or not to accept a savior?.....

It's bizarre!

[RickD]

Neo wrote:
I reject the fall, and Genesis story precisely because it doesn't fit anymore. That is why i say that adam and eve are not even allegory, because the writers obviously thought they were real. And that makes them wrong.

And you honestly don't have a problem with saying this, as a believer?

No rick, why should I? What does it change in my love for god or Christ or God's love for me? Please tell me.

Which Christ, Neo? Not the Christ of the bible. He's not even real. You can't convince me. The bible says Adam brought sin and death into the world of humanity. The bible also says Christ redeemed man from sin and death. But since you say Adam never did that, why should I believe you about your Christ? Do you see my point yet?

No rick, i honestly don't. Im trying but im not seeing it. What does this has to do with Christ identity?

Sorry Neo. If you're witnessing to an unbeliever about Christ, which Christ are you telling him about? If you're telling him about the Christ of the New Testament, and he asks you why man needs redemption, what would you tell him? Or, if he asks you about spiritual death, what do you tell him. If spiritual death didn't enter the world of mankind through one man, how can one man redeem mankind from the curse of sin and spiritual death?