Evidence for God from Science

<i>All that aside, however, I have one more point. The Bible does specifically say, "Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good." Same goes for the plants too... God made everything specifically. He didn't say "sat there and babysat a bunch of bacteria until it formed into better bacteria etc." </i>

Err, that's quite an assumption there. Saying it made them according to their kind doesn't mean He's giving us the process of His creation any more than simply saying He made them.

hermit,

i don't think the bible directly says he loves us more, but indirectly states this by stating that we are the greatest/most prized of his creations. that would imply that he loves us the most. i guess that was why satan and the fallen angels hated us so much and were so jealous.

but why, why are we so much more prized?

macroevolution is rubbish. there is no proof for it whatsoever.

hermitville101 wrote:I would agree except: It cost God His son. That certainly wasn't pleasurable. If it was just for pleasure then why not create a world in which He need not send His son?

I don't believe I actually ever said God's creation of us and our world was "just" for pleasure, as though God wanted to fulfill his own hedonistic desires. You misunderstood my "whole" reply if you took it this way.

What you are after is a "necessary" reason for God's creating. For example, a professional athlete wakes up early, endures training, refrains from eating certain foods, and many other discomforts, as he desires to be number one in his sport. Thus, the athletes desire to be number one is the "necessary" reason for his decision to suffer certain discomforts. Now I'm saying that I don't believe there needs to be a "necessary" reason for God's creating. Yet, that still doesn't mean God can't derive pleasure from His creation. Just don't confuse my saying that God derives pleasure from His creation, as meaning that such derivation of pleasure was the "necessary" reason for His creation.

But you say, surely God's discomfort in being a sacrifice would outweigh His desire to create this world unless a necessary reason existed? I don't see the answer to that question in the clear affirmative. There is much good in what has been created, and much good came out of Christ's death. All that would perhaps be required in order for God to choose to create, is that there exists "sufficient" reason. For example, a sufficient reason for God to create would mean that He sees the good to come from His creation, as either balancing or outweighing any bad. Whether another more desirable world could have been created, such as you think to be applicable to the world of angelic beings, is simply conjecture and irrelevant. If there is "sufficient" reason for God to create our world, then there is no reason why God wouldn't or shouldn't create our world.

Now some try to give our world a "necessary" reason or purpose. For example, that God is using our world to bring about the most good, before finally doing away with evil (those who are against Him). This may be a feasible "necessary" reason, but as I said earlier, I don't see that a "necessary" reason needs to exist in order for God to create.

hermitville101 wrote:If you could have the perfect pet (whatever you think that is) or you could have that pet and spend an arm and a leg for it, which would you choose?

Here there is an ambiguity as to what is perfect. My pet budgie just died yesterday after being stood on or something (we don't really know what happened, but I found him in a bad way on the floor). Such a little bird, and many people don't understand what great pets and awesome personalities, something as small as a budgie could have been and had. He had just as big a personality as any dog I've known. Always loving our company, keeping an eye on our every move, desiring kisses and even placing his beak against our lips when we'd rest on the sofa. Yet, while he had many great traits, he had been accidentally stood on previously (he loved kissing and talking to socks, and sadly socks go on feet! ), he had flown outside and been attacked by miner birds, he had occasional fits, and other events happened which left him with a few physical blemishes. Sometimes he'd also get cranky, especially at night when he was tired. Yet despite all these perhaps "imperfections," I saw him as the perfect pet budgie. Love isn't about "perfection," love is about looking beyond imperfections, and striving through the bad as well as enjoying the good. For God, who is love, to have created a "perfect" world as you idenify "perfection" to be... such a world may well not have been perfect at all if it excluded any demonstration of love.

Kurieuo.

seedling wrote:Hi Hermitville, I don't understand why you say that it had to be fixed, updated and helped along. I believe the Creator started life. And then pretty much took a hands off approach. Life is evolving over billions of years. And it is part of the Creator. It is changing into something new all the time. I must admit I am no scientist and cannot scientifically argue for or against evolution.

See earlier posts on why evolution does not work with out God helping at every step. Second Law of thermodynamics, lack of support of macroevolution, etc.

seedling wrote:But I have read some things. And I have a good mind and a seeking heart. I believed the Adam and Eve story literally for most of my life. Now ... I love the bible, but I don't believe it literally. None of it. The bible is stories ... from men, trying to figure out what their purpose is. Hoping that there is a God who will be on their side, because the world is a scary place. Men, discovering truths about themselves. My trust in the bible's accuracy is nil. There are too many discrepancies. But I trust in some of the concepts and ideas that are written there by seeking people. The things that touch my heart and ring true for all people.

Show me these descrepencies. The Bible has been reviewed and studied by scholars for years and they discovered very few possible errors, all which were minor and did not affect the doctrine or validity of the Bible. There is an incredibly amount of evidence for the Bible, from arcaelogical to prophetical. More than one city has been unearthed based on what the Bible said about it. More than one city has fallen becuase it's predicted in the Bible. The existence of Jesus is undeniable even by secular writings of the times. Believe me, I once tried to prove the Bible wrong and couldn't do it.

I don't understand why so many people have a problem with a literal translation of the Bible. Perhaps someone can help me here. I have yet to see anything which would require that it not be.

seedling wrote:You ask God's purpose. God is the Creator of purpose. I feel I am finding it a little more every day, through my daily life experiences. The bible says "be still and know." Be still inside for awhile. And maybe when you find out YOUR purpose, you will start to find out His.

I have been still for multiple hours pondering my purpose and God's. Then I have looked out into the world to see what others thoughts on the same are. My purpose however is dependent on His. If his purpose is to peel oranges than mine is to grow them for Him. ...or something. With out God, I have no purpose. Therefore I can hardly expect to find my purpose without God and then derive God's purpose.

Mastermind wrote:
Err, that's quite an assumption there. Saying it made them according to their kind doesn't mean He's giving us the process of His creation any more than simply saying He made them.

I repeat, can we agree to dissagree? I'm convinced its more logical for literal creation, you like evolution. Fine.

colors wrote:hermit,

i don't think the bible directly says he loves us more, but indirectly states this by stating that we are the greatest/most prized of his creations. that would imply that he loves us the most. i guess that was why satan and the fallen angels hated us so much and were so jealous.

but why, why are we so much more prized?

I'm going to have to aruge this again. I don't think the Bible states we're the most prized, but people infer this from:

Bible wrote:Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness."

In may be wrong, it could say otherwise, but if you could include a reference please...?

I think it's more a matter of God loves us all, not one more than another. If you had two kids, and loved one more than the other would expect anything other than jealousy from the lesser?

Also (most of the following is personal opinion with no proof so don't shoot me for it) I think that image of God is mostly spiritual, though it could be physical also. Point is, God could easily create other beings in His image. The Bible doesn't say we are God's only creation. I'm becoming quite convinced that in fact humans are not as number one as we think.
Short history lesson: Back in the day when the world was flat and we were the center of the universe Copernicus came along and said differently. Humans assumed that we were God's best and greatest and therefore the center of everything (obviously). There were wrong and dismayed to learn that we are simply a rock floating around the solar system, around galaxy, in universe. I think humans overvalue themselves sometimes, but again, personal thoughts.

If we are more prized then I'm not sure why. Seems to me we suck at life pretty badly... I wouldn't want us. <shrug>

colors wrote:macroevolution is rubbish. there is no proof for it whatsoever.

Thank you. Finally a bit of help.

Kurieuo wrote:I don't believe I actually ever said God's creation of us and our world was "just" for pleasure, as though God wanted to fulfill his own hedonistic desires. You misunderstood my "whole" reply if you took it this way.

My apologies. I think I put a bit too much emphasis on a few words and just started...ranting, except I would like to think I was being nicer than that.

Kurieuo wrote:What you are after is a "necessary" reason for God's creating. For example, a professional athlete wakes up early, endures training, refrains from eating certain foods, and many other discomforts, as he desires to be number one in his sport. Thus, the athletes desire to be number one is the "necessary" reason for his decision to suffer certain discomforts. Now I'm saying that I don't believe there needs to be a "necessary" reason for God's creating. Yet, that still doesn't mean God can't derive pleasure from His creation. Just don't confuse my saying that God derives pleasure from His creation, as meaning that such derivation of pleasure was the "necessary" reason for His creation.

Wow, you're making me think, but I think I'm getting it. God didn't need a reason to make us?

Kurieuo wrote:But you say, surely God's discomfort in being a sacrifice would outweigh His desire to create this world unless a necessary reason existed? I don't see the answer to that question in the clear affirmative. There is much good in what has been created, and much good came out of Christ's death. All that would perhaps be required in order for God to choose to create, is that there exists "sufficient" reason. For example, a sufficient reason for God to create would mean that He sees the good to come from His creation, as either balancing or outweighing any bad. Whether another more desirable world could have been created, such as you think to be applicable to the world of angelic beings, is simply conjecture and irrelevant. If there is "sufficient" reason for God to create our world, then there is no reason why God wouldn't or shouldn't create our world.

Obviously since we were created God did have sufficient reason to create us. So if my brain still functions properly I think I agree with you. My brain is getting quite tired so I apologize for any stupid errors I'm making. Perhaps I should then ask what that reason is. What is special about us that we are worthy of His son?

Kurieuo wrote:Here there is an ambiguity as to what is perfect. My pet budgie just died yesterday after being stood on or something (we don't really know what happened, but I found him in a bad way on the floor). Such a little bird, and many people don't understand what great pets and awesome personalities, something as small as a budgie could have been and had. He had just as big a personality as any dog I've known. Always loving our company, keeping an eye on our every move, desiring kisses and even placing his beak against our lips when we'd rest on the sofa. Yet, while he had many great traits, he had been accidentally stood on previously (he loved kissing and talking to socks, and sadly socks go on feet! ), he had flown outside and been attacked by miner birds, he had occasional fits, and other events happened which left him with a few physical blemishes. Sometimes he'd also get cranky, especially at night when he was tired. Yet despite all these perhaps "imperfections," I saw him as the perfect pet budgie. Love isn't about "perfection," love is about looking beyond imperfections, and striving through the bad as well as enjoying the good. For God, who is love, to have created a "perfect" world as you idenify "perfection" to be... such a world may well not have been perfect at all if it excluded any demonstration of love.

Again, my mind is tired, but: I left ambiguity since many people define the perfect pet differently. You obviously have well defined your perfect pet.
The best of the world is worthless with out love. Verse somewhere...

I just don't understand why He would create a world with sin if he could create one with out it. OK, let me be more specific so I'm not misunderstood by as many. He knew how the world would turn out before He started. He gave us free will and all that, but free will does not dictate we will sin. There are angels with free will who haven't. So why create a world that is dominated by sin and evil when He could just have easily created one that is not?

hermit,

i don't think it's an inference (God loving us most). i will try to find out for you but please be patient. i am new to the christian scene.

also, i read that people knew the world was round long before copernicus--the case for a creator, and someplace else.

colors wrote:hermit,

i don't think it's an inference (God loving us most). i will try to find out for you but please be patient. i am new to the christian scene.

also, i read that people knew the world was round long before copernicus--the case for a creator, and someplace else.

Take your time, I plan on living a few more years, so I've got some time.

If you are new then Welcome. The whole Christian thing is pretty sweet. And if you don't mind, (slight side question) what convinced you to be a Christian?

I probably should have left out the flat/round part as it really didn't add to my case and I wasn't sure that was true. Sorry. <slaps self>

The says that God is love. It's just His way to release His charactor. Nuff said.

Gods purpose is to ensure a beautiful afterlife for humans.
think about it.

I like what Poetic Soul said.

Nameless ... but what about now? What about THIS life? Forget about the sweet by and by ...

We should not worry about Gods purpose, it is us who has a purpose to God, we should worry about finding out what God wants our purpose to be.