hermitville101 wrote:I would agree except: It cost God His son. That certainly wasn't pleasurable. If it was just for pleasure then why not create a world in which He need not send His son?
I don't believe I actually ever said God's creation of us and our world was "just" for pleasure, as though God wanted to fulfill his own hedonistic desires. You misunderstood my "whole" reply if you took it this way.
What you are after is a "necessary" reason for God's creating. For example, a professional athlete wakes up early, endures training, refrains from eating certain foods, and many other discomforts, as he desires to be number one in his sport. Thus, the athletes desire to be number one is the "necessary" reason for his decision to suffer certain discomforts. Now I'm saying that I don't believe there needs to be a "necessary" reason for God's creating. Yet, that still doesn't mean God can't derive pleasure from His creation. Just don't confuse my saying that God derives pleasure from His creation, as meaning that such derivation of pleasure was the "necessary" reason for His creation.
But you say, surely God's discomfort in being a sacrifice would outweigh His desire to create this world unless a necessary reason existed? I don't see the answer to that question in the clear affirmative. There is much good in what has been created, and much good came out of Christ's death. All that would perhaps be required in order for God to choose to create, is that there exists "sufficient" reason. For example, a sufficient reason for God to create would mean that He sees the good to come from His creation, as either balancing or outweighing any bad. Whether another more desirable world could have been created, such as you think to be applicable to the world of angelic beings, is simply conjecture and irrelevant. If there is "sufficient" reason for God to create our world, then there is no reason why God wouldn't or shouldn't create our world.
Now some try to give our world a "necessary" reason or purpose. For example, that God is using our world to bring about the most good, before finally doing away with evil (those who are against Him). This may be a feasible "necessary" reason, but as I said earlier, I don't see that a "necessary" reason needs to exist in order for God to create.
hermitville101 wrote:If you could have the perfect pet (whatever you think that is) or you could have that pet and spend an arm and a leg for it, which would you choose?
Here there is an ambiguity as to what is perfect. My pet budgie just died yesterday after being stood on or something (we don't really know what happened, but I found him in a bad way on the floor). Such a little bird, and many people don't understand what great pets and awesome personalities, something as small as a budgie could have been and had. He had just as big a personality as any dog I've known. Always loving our company, keeping an eye on our every move, desiring kisses and even placing his beak against our lips when we'd rest on the sofa. Yet, while he had many great traits, he had been accidentally stood on previously (he loved kissing and talking to socks, and sadly socks go on feet!
![Razz :P](./images/smilies/icon_razz.gif)
), he had flown outside and been attacked by miner birds, he had occasional fits, and other events happened which left him with a few physical blemishes. Sometimes he'd also get cranky, especially at night when he was tired. Yet despite all these perhaps "imperfections," I saw him as the perfect pet budgie. Love isn't about "perfection," love is about looking beyond imperfections, and striving through the bad as well as enjoying the good. For God, who is love, to have created a "perfect" world as you idenify "perfection" to be... such a world may well not have been perfect at all if it excluded any demonstration of love.
Kurieuo.