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Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:59 pm
by jlay
Thadeyus wrote:jlay wrote:Same goes for Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. If they are just products of their material world, then you can't say that they were 'wrong.'
Sorry, no real time to get back to a reply to this...other than,
GODWIN !
End of posting.
That figures. Didn't expect any less to be perfectly candid. You can't even defend your worldview. The fact that Hitler is a known example does not make an analogy invalid. In fact, I would say that the use of Godwin is in fact becoming its own example of fallacious reasoning. So, take your ball and go home. You know that what was addressed in my last post totally pulls the rug out from under your shaky worldview. You also know there is plenty in my post that you conveniently skipped over that has no reference to Hitler. Repent. That is ADMIT, your thinking doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny. It's so much more beneficial than patting yourself on the back, when you've in fact done nothing. Drops mic, walks off stage.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:47 pm
by Kurieuo
Thadeyus wrote:Kurieuo wrote:Many Atheists believe morality is simply something to be shaken off by those who know better.
Um...no...many atheists don't believe such.
Kurieuo wrote:If you don't mind answering, I'd be interested in your response to the following questions which are similar in form:
If you don't mind, I';ll also have a go.
Kurieuo wrote:Q: Is it "right" or "wrong" to kill off the weak and helpless? Emotions aside, why or why not?
It is wrong and a bad thing. For lots of social, ethical and other reasons.
Kurieuo wrote:Q: Is it "right" or "wrong" for man to rape women? Emotions aside, why or why not?
It is wrong and a bad thing. For lots of social, ethical, psychological, physiological and other reasons.
Kurieuo wrote:Q: Is it "right" or "wrong" to kill off infants? Emotions aside, why or why not?
A very loaded question. Th 'basic' reply is "It is wrong and a bad thing. For lots of social, ethical, psychological, physiological and other reasons."
Now...I am going to be very intrigued by the response to my response about this second last question.
Kurieuo wrote:Finally, do you believe we are free to make choices and act them out, or is "who we are" purely determined by our physiological make-up?
Um...what? We are who we are mentally and hence psychologically. Our past memories , experiences, education (In all its shapes and forms) The cultural norms around us. The years we live and experience etc.
I'm actually a little puzzled by this last question... Sorry.
Much cheers to all.
SS, I'd be interested in your own responses still.
Thad, saying "for lots of social, ethical, psychological, physiological and other reasons." You may as well be saying because 1+1 = 2. This isn't really detailing why. You're essentially saying what you believe is right or wrong is true because you strongly intuit it to be so. And ultimately, this is an emotional reaction because you intuitive feel some things I mention to be wrong.
But on what logical basis are your moral intuitions correct?
Re: the last question. Have a listen to the following (it's only 18 minutes):
[youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7SfEXAQTkA[/youtube]
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:44 pm
by Thadeyus
Byblos wrote:Thadeyus wrote:jlay wrote:Same goes for Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. If they are just products of their material world, then you can't say that they were 'wrong.'
Sorry, no real time to get back to a reply to this...other than,
GODWIN !
End of posting.
Right, that's the ticket. State the most obvious prediction anyone's ever made without bothering an attempt to engage the subject matter.
But then again,
JOHNNY. (that's my prediction that
any time an atheist is cornered with a Nazi reference wrt objective morality will hide behind Godwin's prediction). End of subject.
Wait...How was I cornered with a reference to Hitler? That's got me confused.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:45 pm
by Thadeyus
jlay wrote:That figures. Didn't expect any less to be perfectly candid. You can't even defend your worldview. The fact that Hitler is a known example does not make an analogy invalid. In fact, I would say that the use of Godwin is in fact becoming its own example of fallacious reasoning. So, take your ball and go home. You know that what was addressed in my last post totally pulls the rug out from under your shaky worldview.
You also know there is plenty in my post that you conveniently skipped over that has no reference to Hitler. Repent. That is ADMIT, your thinking doesn't hold up under careful scrutiny. It's so much more beneficial than patting yourself on the back, when you've in fact done nothing. Drops mic, walks off stage.
I did indeed skip over it as I'd just finished over a week of twelve hour shifts and was on my way to the land of Nod. But you referencing Hitler was a tad too much for my fatigued addled brain to ignore.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:57 pm
by Thadeyus
Kurieuo wrote:SS, I'd be interested in your own responses still.
*Nods* Yup, as would I.
Kurieuo wrote:Thad, saying "for lots of social, ethical, psychological, physiological and other reasons." You may as well be saying because 1+1 = 2. This isn't really detailing why. You're essentially saying what you believe is right or wrong is true because you strongly intuit it to be so. And ultimately, this is an emotional reaction because you intuitive feel some things I mention to be wrong. But on what logical basis are your moral intuitions correct?
Um...no, it's not. I'm pretty sure maths works a tad differently than how our social, physiological, ethical etc things work. Which is not to say that either or neither are logical or illogical. Some aspects of the social things can be seeming both at the same time.
I was adding a quick post after much time at work. Am now putting up a quick post after waking up.
Also, am reading the transcript of the whole interview, thanks.
Much cheers to all.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:30 am
by Kurieuo
Re: your reasoning for why you believe some of those things were wrong, I can understand your time restrictions.
Just I was more expecting actual logical reasons rather than broad stroking. There are many assumptions in each of the areas that you presented for your "why" and I see that before they could be accepted as rationally logical reasons, you'd need to define what you mean by them and reason how each follows to justify your responses. Otherwise they don't really matter just like my 1 + 1 = 2.
I'll provide some responses for you after I hear back from SS, or I'll just wrap this part of the discussion in a week or so.
Otherwise, I hope you enjoy your first introduction (if it is) to philosophical discussions on "free will" vs determinism".
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 3:00 pm
by Byblos
Thadeyus wrote:Wait...How was I cornered with a reference to Hitler? That's got me confused.
Because you didn't (don't) bother to address it, you think it's enough to offer a snarky one-word prediction as if it means something. If that's not the case, my apologies. I'll be waiting for a response though. On your version of morality, why was Pol Pot, or the inquisition for that matter, wrong? (notice, Godwin's prediction is not applicable
).
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:10 pm
by Thadeyus
Byblos wrote:Thadeyus wrote:Wait...How was I cornered with a reference to Hitler? That's got me confused.
Because you didn't (don't) bother to address it, you think it's enough to offer a snarky one-word prediction as if it means something. If that's not the case, my apologies. I'll be waiting for a response though. On your version of morality, why was Pol Pot, or the inquisition for that matter, wrong? (notice, Godwin's prediction is not applicable
).
Oh..okay...yeah..Hitler was a horrible Christian. So was Pol pot and their regime a horrible person (I think dying of Alzheimers in a shack in the jungle is not such a fitting punishment for such a person) and the Roman Catholic Church's instigation of the Inquisition. (Yay Napoleon for bringing its reign to an end.)
They were bad because all the things that I have learned from my long life within my secular society shows me ample examples/lessons/information/education/etc as of why they were bad.
Much cheers to all.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:55 pm
by Byblos
Thadeyus wrote:Byblos wrote:Thadeyus wrote:Wait...How was I cornered with a reference to Hitler? That's got me confused.
Because you didn't (don't) bother to address it, you think it's enough to offer a snarky one-word prediction as if it means something. If that's not the case, my apologies. I'll be waiting for a response though. On your version of morality, why was Pol Pot, or the inquisition for that matter, wrong? (notice, Godwin's prediction is not applicable
).
Oh..okay...yeah..Hitler was a horrible Christian. So was Pol pot and their regime a horrible person (I think dying of Alzheimers in a shack in the jungle is not such a fitting punishment for such a person) and the Roman Catholic Church's instigation of the Inquisition. (Yay Napoleon for bringing its reign to an end.)
They were bad because all the things that I have learned from my long life within my secular society shows me ample examples/lessons/information/education/etc as of why they were bad.
Much cheers to all.
Well okey dokey then. A perfectly fitting answer as anyone could expect. Thanks for sharing.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:20 pm
by Thadeyus
Byblos wrote:Well okey dokey then. A perfectly fitting answer as anyone could expect. Thanks for sharing.
You're very welcome.
Much cheers to all.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 7:24 pm
by Kurieuo
Thadeyus wrote:Oh..okay...yeah..Hitler was a horrible Christian.
Seriously?
Maybe a "horrible anti-Christ"... look into reputable biographers outside your Atheistic sources.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:06 pm
by Thadeyus
Kurieuo wrote:Thadeyus wrote:Oh..okay...yeah..Hitler was a horrible Christian.
Seriously?
Maybe a "horrible anti-Christ"... look into reputable biographers outside your Atheistic sources.
Um...so you're saying that there was no involvement religion wise with the fellow, then? (Note that, as always seems to happen hence my 'Godwin' comment, is that mentioning Hitler seems to thence derail threads)
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:17 pm
by Jac3510
Maybe the threads get derailed because the foolishness of many non-believers is put on display when they counter that Hitler was a Christian. Maybe if such absurdities weren't put forward, the thread wouldn't derail. But then you would be required to deal with the actual substance of what was said rather than your derailment, so the distraction works in your favor.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:42 pm
by Thadeyus
Jac3510 wrote:Maybe the threads get derailed because the foolishness of many non-believers is put on display when they counter that Hitler was a Christian. Maybe if such absurdities weren't put forward, the thread wouldn't derail. But then you would be required to deal with the actual substance of what was said rather than your derailment, so the distraction works in your favor.
? Um...but I didn't mention Hitler... ?
Also..I have yet to find any information stating that Hitler might have been a Buddhist..or Hindu or an Atheist, for that matter. Lots of other quotes and information, though...
Seriously...*
Points* => It was jlay who brought up the fellow.....
Much cheers to all.
Re: The Foolishness of Many Non-believers
Posted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:32 pm
by Jac3510
Yes, jlay raised Hitler to prove a point. Rather than responding to the substance of his point, you derailed the thread first by objecting to the reference itself and then by offering the tired argument that Hitler was a Christian anyway. Then, after all that, you try to argue that references to Hitler derail threads, when, in fact, it was you who derailed it because you were either unwilling or unable to respond to the substantive point being made. It's all very typical of how you people tend to operate, though, which was the point I was making, and the theme of this particular forum, anyway. So color me unsurprised that you continue to follow the script.