Evidence for God from Science

Philip wrote:Rick, I believe he is referring to <a href="http://biblia.com/bible/nasb95/1%20Corinthians%2013.10" class="lbsBibleRef" data-reference="1 Corinthians 13.10" data-version="nasb95" target="_blank">1 Corinthians 13:10</a>.

But read this: http://www.aconqueringfaith.net/2007/08 ... ought.html

Yes Philip, that's what I was getting at. I also have a link that I was looking at. It's a little long, but it explains the strengths and weaknesses of different views on "perfect". Certainly at the very least, it's no consensus that the perfect comes at Jesus' second coming.

And Philip, it's interesting that both your link and my link come to the conclusion that "perfect" is best understood as coming at the completion of the biblical canon. Interesting...

I responded earlier today to much of the content of this post. This comment by you has the cart before the horse. God did not distribute the gift of tongues (and other gifts) along denominational lines, i.e. only to Pentecostals. The actual historical sequence of events was that God distributed the gifts in several revivals beginning a little over a century ago, those believers were driven from their denominations, and Pentecostal denominations were formed.

But that IS largely where this gift is mostly practiced today - along denominational lines. It really doesn't matter where they historically came from. It's not so much where they are or where they came from as where they AREN'T found - in the vast majority of truly Christian churches, that is perplexing and of concern. Unless we're to believe that there is something unique about tongues or the people practicing them, that is not typical of ALL of the other spiritual gifts and their widespread distribution, that it's practiced in such a small percentage of Christian churches - well, this poses some big questions.

Gman wrote:

B. W. wrote: Yes, folks have been hurt by abusing all of the gifts of the Spirit, like a bunch of kids playing; many have been hurt in the church sandbox. Some, like the Corinthian Church, have made dumb idols out of the gifts, so God withholds and chastises.

Ok.. Let's not get too emotional here.

I assume you refer to BW's tone and the stereotype of Pentecostals/chgarismatics over-emphasizing emotions and feelings. Like many/most stereotypes it has some basis in reality. That aside, I'll second what BW said. I've known and read of people hurt by abusive leaders who misused/faked "prophecies" to manipulate and control them. In several cases, "hurt badly" would be an understatement! Warnings against such abusive leaders are not infrequent in Paul's letters; there is also 1 John 4: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world." Paul's general instruction, in 1 Corinthians 14:29, "Two or three prophets should speak and the others should evaluate what is said," and 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, "Do not treat prophecies with contempt. 5:21 But examine all things; hold fast to what is good," necessarily include the possibility that some purported prophetic utterance are not "good" and should be rejected. And if 1 Thessalonians 5:22 refers back to verses 20 and 21, may even be evil. In Paul's instruction, these possibilities were reasons to know God, know Scripture, serve in the power and giftings of the Holy Spirit, and be spiritually aware, not pretexts for rejecting God's gifts. And his instructions were addressed to every member of the congregations of believers to whom he wrote, not just to the leaders.

Gman wrote:The point here is the logic of it in a sense if it is not a language that people can't understand. The point I see from if is that it can be a supernatural event, it's just that it is in a tongue that a nation can understand, not gibberish. Where G-d brings together all nations instead of separating them as He did at the tower of Babel.

Gman, as I pointed out in a post in that other thread there was but one occasion recorded in Scripture in which the speakers in tongues were understood by those hearing, Acts 2. Paul's instruction to the corinthian church, "14:27 If someone speaks in a tongue, it should be two, or at the most three, one after the other, and someone must interpret. 14:28 But if there is no interpreter, he should be silent in the church. Let him speak to himself and to God." explicitly means that, in a gathering of a church, the most common case would be that hearers would not not understand the message in tongues, and the gift of the Holy Spirit, interpretation of tongues, would be necessary. 1 Corinthians 13:1, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels ..." is inconsistent with the limitation that a message in tongues must be in a known human language.

RickD wrote:

Pete wrote:
In 1 Corinthians 13:8-12 Paul told us when the gift of speaking in tongues (and other gifts) would cease, at Jesus' second coming.

Could you show me where in these verses, that it says the gift of speaking in tongues would cease at Jesus' second coming? I just see that it says they will cease. I don't see where it says when.

The perfect has not come yet, evidences -

We are not perfect,,,

We are to ask for wisdom - if God's spiritual gift of wisdom has ceased then how can any minister preach on Saturday and Sunday and why should we admonished in the NT to seek and ask for it?

The Perfect that comes mentioned in 1 Co 13:10, is not referring to the pages of a codified bible but rather what Revelation 21:6, or for context read Rev 21:3, 4, 5, 6, is referring too.

Any form of language will have its use, but will fade away and cease, and new words need spoken or written, or prayed. We do not have all the words of the Apostle Paul and many things he taught are no more. There is no collective memory of these, nor are the words of those who have passed on, unless a written record was left and in due time, even these will cease.

Prophecy, is fulfilled and new prophetic words may be needed. When I write here of prophecy I am referring to the uncovering of biblical truth and insights that bible pastors, teachers, lay people use everyday for the messages from God to convey to folks in order to disciple and train them in the faith. This has not ceased, yet, the messages have - and new ones needed. Includes true prophetic words to individual once come to pass, then cease and a new prophetic word maybe needed later on but all will cease one day and that one day was not after the last apostle died and 1st church era ended. If so, then Hebrews 13:8 is in error and so is the Joel 2:28-32 passage.

Same with knowledge - all kinds of knowledge comes and fades after its use is complete. The light bulb has give way to LED lighting - floppy disk once top of the line and now obsolete. There is evidence how knowledge ceases, leading to new knowledge, and that new knowledge will also fade away. One thing is secure - God's Love with which he instructs us on, never will fade away as it is constant and eternal as God himself is.

The perfect that comes is not human intellect dictating to God what he can and cannot do but rather when the Lord himself says - it is done, Rev 21:6

In Bible Study Fellowship class last night we discussed Matthew 13:58, very interesting statement in context of Matthew 13:53-58 and 1 Co 12:11, 15, 16, 17, 21
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Sorry about being away today. A couple of notes ... first, I've been working thru the thread from the first page, so I haven't read ahead. I hope that douesn't appear or isn't taken as rude. It's kind of the way my brain works. Second things have gotten busy on the Moderation front on that other forum. I'm working with the other Mods on controlling a couple of "fires". Time consuming and not fun. Anyway, I appreciate patience and prayers.

nuthajason wrote:but biblically God does bring gifts in and out as needed.

God certainly uses the means that fit the need and His purposes; "bring gifts in and out" is tendentious to the threshold of begging the question.

nuthajason wrote:does anyone heal with their shadow or a handkerchief these days? Has anyone stopped the sun recently or turned rivers to blood or stopped the rain?

This, IMO, is begging the question in the form of asking rhetorical questions that are not analogous to the point they are intended to support. Put simply, your point (in responding to another's post) is that the gift of speaking in tongues is not at present needed and therefore not being used. Were your rhetorical questions analogous, they would be: "Does God use the gift of healing today?"; "Does God use the gift of miracles today?". There is a second question-begging in this, at a more general level. On one hand, you suggest that God is not using the gift of speaking in tongues currently, because no genuine speaking in tongues is happening, currently. On the other hand, you force yourself into the position of claiming that no current purported speaking in tongues can be genuine, because God has ceased (temporarily or permanently) using that gift. The conclusion of one argument is the premise for the other, and vice versa,

nuthajason wrote:in Israel's log history there were times of huge intervention by the Lord and times of quiet.

Are you saying that, because there is no Scriptural record of the 4 centuries between Malachi and the annunciations of the coming births of John the Baptist and Jesus that God had no prophets and did nothing miraculous in those centuries? You do know that both the Old and the New Testaments give the names of prophets whose prophecies are not part of Scripture? And do you think Scripture records every miraculous thing God has ever done? An argument from silence, such as this, is weak.

nuthajason wrote:a lot of which had no huge inbreaking of the kingdom.

Not sure what your point is in this sentence. Is this an allusion to the teaching (which I have some seen Cessationists make) that the entire book of Acts is a successive series of revelations with events peculiar to/for such revelations, and therefore no conclusions applicable to the present day can be drawn from any instance of speaking in tongues recorded in the book of Acts? IF so, it may be cute and convenient doctrine, for Cessationists, but it has no Scriptural support (if I remember correctly, some one suggested that this be the standard for this present discussion: "sit with a bible and give me a good hermeneutical exposition").

now, the fruit of the spirit is a different thing and some gifts are still with us. I am however very suspicious of anyone who calls themselves a prophet. For me the bible is all sufficient, for every good work.[/quote]
I am not exactly suspicious "of anyone who calls themselves a prophet", but I have and would in the future apply Paul's instructions in 1 Corinthians 14:29 and 1 Thessalonians 5:20-21, and John's in 1 John 4:1-3 to any purported prophecy. Did the Bible instruct you, specifically, what your gifts and ministries would be in the Body of Christ? What you would do to earn a living? As good and pious as, "For me the bible is all sufficient, for every good work," sounds, it goes beyond what the Bible teaches of itself. And if that statement was intended to be a reason for rejecting anything outside of the Bible purporting to be prophecy, take that argument to the One who gave prophets and the gift of prophecy to the Body of Christ. Ask Him why He would do such a thing. Tell Him you reject His prophets and prophecies, sight unseen and words unheard.

Speaking of, "sit with a bible and give me a good hermeneutical exposition" where is the Biblical evidence that God ceased using the gift of speaking in tongues - but not teaching, not giving, not serving, not ... - after the First Century AD (or whatever date/event suits your purposes)?

RickD wrote:And just to add, I'd be very suspicious of anyone who claims to have the gift of healing. EXTREMELY SUSPICIOUS!!!

Well, taking this them even further ...

While I see a valid purpose in letting people know you exist, what you do, with appropriate scope, touting one's spiritual gift - whatever it is - beyond that simple function is boasting and prideful.

Greetings, dear bretheren and sisteren! I am Deacon Extraordinaire Smythe-Jones! My spiritual gift is service, and I can clean 6 toilets or mop 1500 square feet of floor in just an hour!

Jesus didn't have a massive publicity campaign touting His preaching tours, but he did send his disciples ahead of him to let people know He was coming (Luke 10:1-16; Matthew 10 may be a parallel passage). So it's not as simple a balance as, "Just shut up!"

RickD wrote:Wasn't the gift of tongues given so people could preach the good news to others who spoke in a different language? Has anybody seen/heard that going on today? Is it possible that somewhere, maybe God gives a missionary the ability to communicate in the language of the country he is in? Maybe, but that's certainly not what "charismatics" and others consider to be tongues.

I've answered this objection here and also in this post in that thread in the "Questions for Christians" forum (posted well before I saw RickD's post, BTW; my post was "answering" something that was said to my parents some 40 years ago - by a pastor of a theologically conservative church, so RickD is not in bad company ... or at least this post is not evidence thereof). But let me answer it from another direction. If speaking in tongues were essentially a missionary gift, why does 1 Corinthians 14 give instructions for use of that gift in assemblies of believers? If speaking in tongues was to communicate to people who spoke the particular language, why would Paul's instruction in 1 Corinthians 14 mandate that any message in tongues be interpreted? If speaking in tongues was to communicate to people who spoke the particular language, why would there be a gift of interpretation of tongues? And, humorously as well as seriously, does 1 Corinthians 13:1 mean speaking in tongues is also to enable believers to preach to angels?!

Philip wrote:When I was very young (19-20), I was influenced by a co-worker who was a wonderful Christian that spoke in tongues. Only thing was that his church believed that they were THE key sign as to whether or not one is saved (clearly unscriptural). But I can remember wanting to speak in tongues.

I've stated before - in this thread and/or the "other thread" - that this is not a common belief among Pentecostals and charismatics. Not that you said it is. Obviously, my statement about that is based on my necessarily limited experience. So I went to the websites of 5 major Pent5\ecostal denominations and two associations of charismatic churches to find what they teach.

From the Assemblies of God website's "Fundamental Truths" webpage:

7. WE BELIEVE...the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is a Special Experience Following Salvation that empowers believers for witnessing and effective service, just as it did in New Testament times. [1 of 4 cardinal doctrines of the AG]

8. WE BELIEVE... The Initial Physical Evidence of the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is ‘Speaking in Tongues,’ as experienced on the Day of Pentecost and referenced throughout Acts and the Epistles.

From the Church of God in Christ website's "Our Statement of Faith" webpage:

We believe that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:4, is given to believers who ask for Him.

From the Church of God in Christ website's "What We Believe" webpage:

We believe that the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is an experience subsequent to conversion and sanctification and that tongue-speaking is the consequence of the baptism in the Holy Ghost with the manifestations of the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22-23; Acts 10:46, 19:1-6). We believe that we are not baptized with the Holy Ghost in order to be saved (Acts 19:1-6; John 3:5).

From the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) website's "Declaration of Faith" webpage:[/url

We Believe:
...
In the baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to a clean heart.

[url=http://www.churchofgod.org/beliefs/doctrinal-commitments]From the Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) website's "Doctrinal Commitments" webpage:

The following Doctrinal Commitments represent the core beliefs of the denomination as outlined in Scripture.
...
* Baptism with the Holy Ghost subsequent to cleansing; the enduement of power for service. Matthew 3:11; Luke 24:49, 53; Acts 1:4-8

From the Church of God of Prophecy website's "BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT & SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES" webpage:

... The baptism with the Holy Spirit as it occurred at Pentecost and in subsequent places in the Book of Acts (8:14–17; 10:44–46; 19:2–7) is a definite experience that is subsequent to the salvation and sanctification experiences or may accompany them in a somewhat simultaneous way. ...

From the Foursquare Gospel Church website's "The Spirit-Filled Life" webpage/tab:

We believe that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience that follows salvation. All believers have God’s Spirit within them. Holy Spirit baptism empowers believers to exalt Jesus, to live lives of holiness, and to be witnesses of God’s saving grace. ...

From the CalvaryChapel.com website's "About" webpage:

We believe in the person of the Holy Spirit, Who came forth from the Father and Son to convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, and to regenerate, sanctify and empower for ministry all who believe in Christ; (Acts 1:8; 2 Corinthians 3:18; John 16:8-11; Romans 8:26 and 15:13,16; Hebrews 9:14).

We believe the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is an abiding helper, teacher, and guide. (John 6:13, 14:16-17 and 16:8-11; Romans 8:26).

From the Vineyard Church website's "Core Values And Beliefs" booklet pdf, page 15:

we believe that the Holy Spirit indwells every believer in Jesus Christ and that He is our abiding Helper, Teacher, and Guide. We believe in the filling or the empowering of the Holy Spirit, often a conscious experience, for ministry today. We believe in the present ministry of the Spirit and in the exercise of all of the biblical gifts of the Spirit.

Some very specifically contradict the idea that the baptism in the Holy Spirit or speaking in tongues are necessary for salvation or even a primary evidence one is saved. Others, e.g. Calvary Chapel, do not go to that level of detail regarding those topics, but make statements that are not reconcilable with such a teaching/belief. As a footnote, I did not check out the beliefs of one of the larger Pentecostal denominations, the United Pentecostal Church. This is because, while the UPC is considered Pentecostal, it is the major "Oneness" denomination - unitarian, but nothing like the Unitarians (modern Unitarian-Universalists or 19th Century Unitarians) or Arian groups such as Jehovah's witnesses. It's a doctrinal "there" to which I didn't care to go, in this context.

I wasn't surprised by anything I found, but I was interested by the degree of confirmation of my previously slightly vague impression, and by the way many denominations explicitly state that the baptism in the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues happen, if they do, after salvation. It's nearly a century since Pentecostals started organizing as denominational groups, so obviously they've dealt with this issue, both internally and externally.

B. W. wrote:
We are to ask for wisdom - if God's spiritual gift of wisdom has ceased then how can any minister preach on Saturday and Sunday and why should we admonished in the NT to seek and ask for it?

I wasn't addressing the gift of wisdom. But since you mentioned it, God could still give a believer wisdom, even without giving a believer a gift of wisdom. We can pray for wisdom on something without praying for a gift of wisdom.

B. W. wrote:
The Perfect that comes mentioned in 1 Co 13:10, is not referring to the pages of a codified bible but rather what Revelation 21:6, or for context read Rev 21:3, 4, 5, 6, is referring too.

That's certainly debatable, as evidenced by the links Philip and I posted.

As an addendum to my post above, I think the fact that the person/people whom ptc experienced are very atypical - within a Pentecostal-charismatic context - severely narrows the scope for which his experiences are a reasonable consideration. That's a long-winded way of saying that an entire group should not be tarred with the actions of extremists almost entirely rejected by that group. Should all Baptists be slammed because the Phelpsians call themselves Westboro Baptist Church? Should all Pentecostals and charismatics be tarred with the Appalachian snake-handlers? (I hope non-pentecostal/charismatics and Fundamentalists are past doing that by now!) Obviously not! In the same way, please avoid tarring mainstream Pentecostals and charismatics with this belief that they/we overwhelmingly reject.

Gman wrote:Now this is my problem with those who believe that speaking in tongues is the only way to know that someone is spirit filled.

Concur. It is common/normal Pentecostal doctrine, but it goes beyond what Scripture teaches and shows. I pointed this out in that other thread. Quoting from my blog post:

Speaking of neat and tidy God boxes, Part 1 … some Pentecostals teach that if some one does not speak in tongues they are not saved. The Acts 8 and Acts 19 accounts contradict this teaching; the Samaritans and Ephesians are clearly identified as being believers prior to their receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (and speaking in tongues). Speaking of neat and tidy God boxes, Part 2 … traditional Pentecostals teach that speaking in tongues is the evidence one has received the gift of the Holy Spirit. I believe these passages demonstrate that this teaching goes farther than Scripture does. Acts 8 makes clear that it was apparent to others when the Samaritan believers received the gift of the Holy Spirit, but does not mention what made it apparent. As for the believers in Ephesus, one very reasonable understanding of Acts 19 is that some were speaking in tongues, while others were prophesying – in other words, two “evidences”.

I believe that some one having been filled with the Holy Spirit will be apparent: not necessarily immediately to others; the Holy Spirit is the One whose actions will determine how that fact will be apparent. Also, in the book of Acts, being filled with the Spirit is not a one-time, once-for-all-time thing. I'll have to find the examples of this, though it's not exactly a revelatory discovery on my part.

Gman wrote:And remember.. Love speaks louder than words...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyAJa2J9xQ4[/youtube]

Or maybe more to the point,

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m535OdDhFcY[/youtube]

[sarcasm] Just thought I'd amplify a comment made by John MacArthur, either in his recent book or at the "Strange Fire" conference:

“The (Pentecostal/charismatic) movement itself has brought nothing that enriches true worship.”

Those of you who disapprove of speaking in tongues, Pentecostals, and charismatics who live in English-speaking countries and whose churches use hymnals need to look at the authors index at the back. If you see any song(s) written by Andrae' Crouch, Chuck Girard, Kenn Gulliksen or Jack Hayford, need to speak to your pastoral team. They are all Pentecostals or charismatics. And if you use modern worship music from Hillsong in Australia (or the US), . [/sarcasm]

Pete,

Have you looked anymore into MacArthur and lordship salvation, and how MacArthur conflates salvation and discipleship?