Evidence for God from Science

Seraph,

Make sure you differentiate between homosexual acts, and homosexual feelings or tendencies. The homosexual act is the sin, not the tendencies.

Just my 2cents.

RickD wrote:Seraph,

Make sure you differentiate between homosexual acts, and homosexual feelings or tendencies. The homosexual act is the sin, not the tendencies.

Just my 2cents.

That's true, but even that doesn't make much sense to me. Why be destined to perceive that as love when God is against them acting on it? God should have sovereignty in the development of a person. Doesn't seem fair.

I guess if someone asks me how I feel about homosexuality, I would just give them an "I don't know".

Seraph wrote:

RickD wrote:Seraph,

Make sure you differentiate between homosexual acts, and homosexual feelings or tendencies. The homosexual act is the sin, not the tendencies.

Just my 2cents.

That's true, but even that doesn't make much sense to me. Why be destined to perceive that as love when God is against them acting on it? God should have sovereignty in the development of a person. Doesn't seem fair.

I guess if someone asks me how I feel about homosexuality, I would just give them an "I don't know".

I understand the "love" issue. But think about this, and see if it makes sense: if a man is married, and has an affair with a woman, is it any less of a sin if the man loves his mistress?

Sexual relations are meant for a married man and woman. Any sexual relations outside of that, is a sin. Does that make any sense?

I have never understood this argument, having homosexual tendencies is not a sin, only the act is. Its either both or neither. I am open to an explanation though because to me it doesn't make sense.

neo-x wrote:I have never understood this argument, having homosexual tendencies is not a sin, only the act is. Its either both or neither. I am open to an explanation though because to me it doesn't make sense.

Maybe, well, also man cannot look with lust on other woman than his wife. He cannot have 'dirty' desires. So, similarly probably man cannot have desires about another man. And as he is not attracted by women, the best for him is not to think about intimate relationship at all.
So, I would say, it is not sin not being attracted by any woman. It is sin for all to have 'dirty' thoughts about any woman who is not wife.

What do you think?

neo-x wrote:I have never understood this argument, having homosexual tendencies is not a sin, only the act is. Its either both or neither. I am open to an explanation though because to me it doesn't make sense.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself: man is sinful by nature. We are not sinners because we sin, we are sinners because Adam sinned. (Or, we are sinners because we were born of sinners.) Whatever we do, we cannot avoid temptation because it is woven into the very essence of our being.

Now, some people are cursed with a ''primary'' sin nature, a nature that keeps tempting them over and over and over. My particular ''primary'' sin nature is theft. Before I was saved, I stole daily and with complete abandon. I was very good at it - I never went to jail - and theft never bothered me morally. After coming to the Lord, I stopped stealing. I just stopped. But I still see opportunities to steal, to defraud, to embezzel almost every day because theft is my primary sin nature. I don't act on any of these temptations now but I am always aware of them.

Do you see the parallel with homosexuality? How the tendency to homosexuality isn't a sin but the act is?

FL

It's one thing for something to arise from a sinful nature, like theft or malice. But its something else if a trait is embedded in someones very genetic code, which I believe God is in control of. It's just like judging sin only makes sense if the sinner had a choice in the matter, it doesn't seem fair if they didn't. While a gay person has free will over who they have sex with, if their very created nature is inclined to steer them towards the same sex, that's a different matter.

As for if its sin because it necessarily outside of marriage, is marriage defined as exclusively as between one man and one woman in the bible? It might very well be but I'm not familiar with it. And why would God define marriage as exclusively as between men and women if 10% or so (probably higher) of people are predisposed to be attracted toward the same sex?

Also, I fear I've steered this thread right off the rails
I don't really have much to add to the main topic unfortunately.

Seraph wrote:It's one thing for something to arise from a sinful nature, like theft or malice. But its something else if a trait is embedded in someones very genetic code, which I believe God is in control of. It's just like judging sin only makes sense if the sinner had a choice in the matter, it doesn't seem fair if they didn't. While a gay person has free will over who they have sex with, if their very created nature is inclined to steer them towards the same sex, that's a different matter.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself: having sexual relations with someone of the same gender is sinful but the temptation to sin is not sinful. Even Jesus was tempted...remember?

Malice and homosexuality are both ''something that arise from a sinful nature,'' to use your terms. Remember: we are not sinners because we sin, we are sinners because Adam sinned. Or, if you don't believe in a literal Adam & Eve, we are sinners because it is our nature to sin. A baby is conceived in sin and is born a sinner: read Psalm 51.

Sorry...those are the facts.

FL

It's things like this that make me really struggle with the idea of total Biblical inerrancy to be honest. Little instances where the Bible appears to contradict reality. Call me a heretic but it really does enter my mind when I read stuff like this.

That's because you have bought into the lie that homosexuals are created by God, that He MEANT that to be their sexual orientation. But that is not backed up by identical twin studies - twins sharing identical genetics:

--**This study by Langstrom, et al, in 2008 in Sweden was published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior. The sample included 3,826 twin pairs and only 10-13% of all homosexual identical twins had co-twins who were also homosexuals.

--A 2002 twin study by Bearman and Brueckner among adolescents shows same-sex attraction concordance (same attraction in both) between identical twins was only 7.7% for males and 5.3% for females.

--In 2000 Austrailian twins were studied and Bailey et. al, found that only 11% of gay identical twins had gay twin siblings, and 14% of lesbians had lesbian identical twin siblings.

--All the major large scale twin studies in the US, Australia, and Scandinavia over the past 20 years have yielded essentially the same results. Thus, no one is "born that way". These very small concordance levels show that there is very little genetic influence on homosexuality at all. And let's not forget the environmental factors that would have mutually influenced those identical twins who DID identify as gay.

In contrast: the number of identical twin pairs who share identical alcoholic behaviors are 50%! Four to five times the concordance rates for homosexuality....yet millions of people have overcome alcohol addiction and no one questions whether they have changed.

And the belief that one whose sexual attraction is same sex cannot change - WITH God's help - ANOTHER huge lie. But one must want to change and depend upon God to help him move toward such change. There are pedophiles that are adamant that their sexual attraction to children is both normal, natural and healthy for them - think God caused that as well?

10 - 20% of the population is gay?

Says who? Kinsey originally reported the 10% figure (for homosexual men; 5% for lesbians) - but he didn't use random, population-based surveys, but surveys among specific groups. Approximately 25 percent of the 5,300 individuals Kinsey studied were prison inmates, “who by the nature of their confinement, couldn’t have heterosexual intercourse.” In addition, 44 percent of these inmates had had homosexual experiences while in prison. This was hardly a representative sample of the American population. But there were other major flaws in the group selected for the research. Kinsey admitted that “several hundred male prostitutes” were used in his sample. This alone would make a major difference in his findings. Yet, this 10% figure is constantly referred to as if it were fact.

Gay Americans Make Up 4 Percent of Population
April 8, 2011

ABCNEWS.com

An estimated 9 million Americans -- or nearly 4 percent of the total population -- say they identify as lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender, according to a new report released this week from the Williams Institute, a think-tank devoted to LGBT research at UCLA.

Bisexuals make up slightly more than half that group, 1.8 percent of the total U.S. population, and they are substantially more likely to be women than men.

The report is the most up-to-date assessment of that population and produced a lower population percentage than the 10 percent number that advocacy groups have used in the past, which was based on Alfred Kinsey studies from 1948.

Does a 4% figure of the homosexual population, against the backdrop of identical twin studies, actually prove God CREATED people to be gay? Environment and societal reinforcement are playing enormous roles in influencing people's sexual pursuits. Modern psychology affirms it, says to embrace it.

And this: Are we not attracted to a wide variety of things that God calls sin? I see beautiful, shapely women all the time that are off limits to my married self, that I might lust for - but God calls any sexual pursuit of them (by me) to be adulterous and wrongful. To unrepentantly continue to pursue such relationships would show me to be in constant rebellion against God. There are all manner of things I might lust for that God calls sinful. It's one thing to be attracted to such things and to struggle against being caught up in them. But to simply say I should have this or that simply because my attraction to it seems natural and enjoyable, that I can't seem to help myself - or that I don't WANT to help myself - well, this is unrepentant sin. And God says certain continuous sins reveal unrepentance - to the point that they reveal one to be spiritually dead in His eyes (unworthy of Heaven).

Romans 1 explains it: "21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error."

...marital decision-making problems, monthly cramps, negativity, over-eating, poison ivy rash, questions about life, relationship problems, shoulder problem, sorrow, stiff neck, stomach aches, stress, throat soreness, unemployment, worth (self), x, y, z. I could easily start over, but I will desist...And then there's the healings I witnessed in the family in which I grew up and then the healings I logged (about 180 of them) in raising my own children who are now grown...All of these healings came without turning to doctors or medicine or any material remedy. I'm allowed to turn to any doctor any time I want, without being criticized, but I haven't needed to. God's power is Omni-present. That is enough. Praise Him!

Some healings came only after first forsaking sinful thoughts that I had been harboring, because sometimes sin causes sickness. Tribulation causes much needed spiritual growth and transformation of character.

"Sweet are the uses of adversity;
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head." (Shakespeare)

Healing is a daily activity for us all through God's grace. "Work out your own salvation". This is completely do-able thanks to The Wayshower, Christ Jesus. With each healing comes progress and a new understanding of God. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

Thank you very much for mentioning the healing of theft, FL.

Ann wrote:Some healings came only after first forsaking sinful thoughts that I had been harboring, because sometimes sin causes sickness. Tribulation causes much needed spiritual growth and transformation of character.

"Sweet are the uses of adversity;
Which, like the toad, ugly and venomous,
Wears yet a precious jewel in his head." (Shakespeare)

Healing is a daily activity for us all through God's grace. "Work out your own salvation". This is completely do-able thanks to The Wayshower, Christ Jesus. With each healing comes progress and a new understanding of God. "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

I believe you took the phrase "Work out your own salvation" out of context. Context is below:

Philippians 2:5-12
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Also, Jesus is not The Wayshower. He is Lord.

In Matthew 10:1 he gave power to heal:
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease

Matthew 11:25-30
Jesus Gives True Rest
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. 26 Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. 27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. 28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”


"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

-
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Rom 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Bible quotes are from the NASB

ChristianScientistAnn wrote:(B.W., Each and every one of those verses, and every word in each of those verses in Romans are important to me. - A.)

...hiccups, impatience, jitters, knee giving out, limping, loneliness,...

Ann

Ann

Do you know what the verses from Romans 5 are saying?

Please read the first verse:

What makes it important to you?
-
-
-

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

neo-x wrote:I have never understood this argument, having homosexual tendencies is not a sin, only the act is. Its either both or neither. I am open to an explanation though because to me it doesn't make sense.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself: man is sinful by nature. We are not sinners because we sin, we are sinners because Adam sinned. (Or, we are sinners because we were born of sinners.) Whatever we do, we cannot avoid temptation because it is woven into the very essence of our being.

Now, some people are cursed with a ''primary'' sin nature, a nature that keeps tempting them over and over and over. My particular ''primary'' sin nature is theft. Before I was saved, I stole daily and with complete abandon. I was very good at it - I never went to jail - and theft never bothered me morally. After coming to the Lord, I stopped stealing. I just stopped. But I still see opportunities to steal, to defraud, to embezzel almost every day because theft is my primary sin nature. I don't act on any of these temptations now but I am always aware of them.

Do you see the parallel with homosexuality? How the tendency to homosexuality isn't a sin but the act is?

FL

I see, well yeah that makes sense. I was taking it to be like Christ said about having lust towards women, that if a man even sees a woman in lust he is guilty of the act, so that kept coming back to me. But thanks for replying.

Hi Ann, still looking forward to hearing what you have say

B. W. wrote:-
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 5:2 through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
Rom 5:4 and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
Rom 5:5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Rom 5:11 And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Bible quotes are from the NASB

ChristianScientistAnn wrote:(B.W., Each and every one of those verses, and every word in each of those verses in Romans are important to me. - A.)

...hiccups, impatience, jitters, knee giving out, limping, loneliness,...

Ann

Ann

Do you know what the verses from Romans 5 are saying?

Please read the first verse:

What makes it important to you?
-
-
-

B.W.
I don't want to be impolite and not reply, especially since you have asked twice for a reply, but my reply won't please you. You see, I don't want to have that kind of discussion. I am glad to answer sincere questions about my religion, but like you, I can detect easily when someone is trying to change me. I love Christian Science. Not interested in changing. A person has to want to change before you can convert them. I'm satisfied and very grateful for my religion. Your time is better used somewhere else.
In sincere fellowship of Christ,
Ann