Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:I'm not exactly sure what that exchange was all about but here's a question anyone of you guys can answer: is reality knowable?

I believe someone can always come up with a scenerio to cast doubt on reality being knowable, but I see enough evidence to convince myself that it is knowable, even though my evidence may not be sufficient to convince someone else.

The way I see it, when it comes to reality, when it comes to the Universe, when it comes to that which I can experience with my 5 sences, I have no reason to assume anything other than what my sences are telling me is the truth.

Ken

Byblos wrote:I'm not exactly sure what that exchange was all about but here's a question anyone of you guys can answer: is reality knowable?

Reality is subjective, so reality is knowable only at a personal/perceptual level.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Byblos wrote:I'm not exactly sure what that exchange was all about but here's a question anyone of you guys can answer: is reality knowable?

Reality is subjective, so reality is knowable only at a personal/perceptual level.

In other words it is not knowable at all. Might as well simply stop communicating altogether, I mean what's the point.

Byblos wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Byblos wrote:I'm not exactly sure what that exchange was all about but here's a question anyone of you guys can answer: is reality knowable?

Reality is subjective, so reality is knowable only at a personal/perceptual level.

In other words it is not knowable at all. Might as well simply stop communicating altogether, I mean what's the point.

Of course it is knowable, just not in the absolute.
Very few things are known in the absolute.

Reality is what is real and what is real is based on perception and that perception can be correct or incorrect, right?
I know that boiling water is very hot BUT what about water that is less than boiling?
It may be hot for me or just very warm for you and intolerable to someone else.
We know the reality of the universe based on today understanding is subjective to THAT understanding, just as the reality of the universe 200 years ago ( which was different than today) was based on THEIR understanding.
Reality is knowable BUT because we are relational beings, that reality is relational and perceptual.

reality itself is NOT subjective. It is objective.
PS, all you've stated is that our perception of reality is subjective. But this doesn't negate whether reality is objective.
A blind person is going to have a different perspective on reality than myself, but it doesn't change what reality actually is.

For example, water will boil at a certain temp given certain factors. let's say you lack the capacity to sense heat. It doesn't change the reality of whether the water will or will not boil. Perception doesn't CHANGE reality. If it did, then yes reality would be subjective.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:Well obviously there is proof that the Universe exists; there is absolute proof that it does.

Ken

The universe exists based on our perception of what we believe reality to be.
" I exist, therefore the universe must exist".

Of course tomorrow you may wake up from this dream and realize that it is nothing other than a dream.

Perception is reality.

Perception only equals reality to that person.

Ken

Bingo.

But when our preception is in tune with everyone elses perception, we know our preception is based upon reality.

Ken

jlay wrote:reality itself is NOT subjective. It is objective.
PS, all you've stated is that our perception of reality is subjective. But this doesn't negate whether reality is objective.
A blind person is going to have a different perspective on reality than myself, but it doesn't change what reality actually is.

For example, water will boil at a certain temp given certain factors. let's say you lack the capacity to sense heat. It doesn't change the reality of whether the water will or will not boil. Perception doesn't CHANGE reality. If it did, then yes reality would be subjective.

Reality is objective yes BUT OUR reality is and always will be base don perception and as such, it is subjective.
Water boils at 100 C HERE, it will boil under different conditions and temperature somewhere else of course and that is the reality of water boiling, what that reality means to YOU and to ME may be very different depending on how we perceive boiling water.
You view that perception doesn't change what reality is is based on what? who YOU perceive reality.
200 years ago reality was that man can't fly and space travel is 100% fantasy and yet, what is our reality today? what will it be tomorrow?
Reality tells us that once we are dead, we are dead BUT we know/believe that is not the case and it especially want the case for a certain person almost 2000 years ago.
What reality actually is is based on what we believe reality to be at any given time.

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:Well obviously there is proof that the Universe exists; there is absolute proof that it does.

Ken

The universe exists based on our perception of what we believe reality to be.
" I exist, therefore the universe must exist".

Of course tomorrow you may wake up from this dream and realize that it is nothing other than a dream.

Perception is reality.

Perception only equals reality to that person.

Ken

Bingo.

But when our preception is in tune with everyone elses perception, we know our preception is based upon reality.

Ken

So what is real is based on the majority view?

When the vast majority agrees, it is more of a conformation of what you already believe.

Ken

Kenny wrote:When the vast majority agrees, it is more of a conformation of what you already believe.

Ken

That is a slippery slope dude, think about what you are stating and how many times history has proven that wrong.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:When the vast majority agrees, it is more of a conformation of what you already believe.

Ken

That is a slippery slope dude, think about what you are stating and how many times history has proven that wrong.

I hear what you are saying; but untill you are proven wrong, you have no reason to assume you are, thus you go with your preceptions.

Ken

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:When the vast majority agrees, it is more of a conformation of what you already believe.

Ken

That is a slippery slope dude, think about what you are stating and how many times history has proven that wrong.

I hear what you are saying; but untill you are proven wrong, you have no reason to assume you are, thus you go with your preceptions.

Ken

And that is a very good point.
Hence me statement that reality is based on perception and subjective.
In the case you state, it is subjective to the "majority rule" and being proved wrong.
We "know" that there are some realities that are absolute ( mathematical realities for example) but even those are based on what WE have defined as reality.
I guess what we have is concrete/absolute reality ( math for example) and subjective reality ( what we view as real until proven otherwise).

Kenny wrote:Well obviously there is proof that the Universe exists; there is absolute proof that it does.

Ken

Where did it come from?
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PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Kenny wrote:When the vast majority agrees, it is more of a conformation of what you already believe.

Ken

That is a slippery slope dude, think about what you are stating and how many times history has proven that wrong.

I hear what you are saying; but untill you are proven wrong, you have no reason to assume you are, thus you go with your preceptions.

Ken

And that is a very good point.
Hence me statement that reality is based on perception and subjective.
In the case you state, it is subjective to the "majority rule" and being proved wrong.
We "know" that there are some realities that are absolute ( mathematical realities for example) but even those are based on what WE have defined as reality.
I guess what we have is concrete/absolute reality ( math for example) and subjective reality ( what we view as real until proven otherwise).

I agree!

Ken

B. W. wrote:

Kenny wrote:Well obviously there is proof that the Universe exists; there is absolute proof that it does.

Ken

Where did it come from?
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As I said in previous posts, I don't know; all I have are guesses. I would guess that the Universe has always existed

K