Which one is right

[neo-x]

This isn't about salvation though, lets agree that even when a person loses faith they still can have salvation. My principal contention is that one cannot say that those who fall away never had true faith to begin with. I have seen this being defended here before and I think it's the wrong idea.

Rick, did u miss the above in my post?

[RickD]

This isn't about salvation though, lets agree that even when a person loses faith they still can have salvation. My principal contention is that one cannot say that those who fall away never had true faith to begin with. I have seen this being defended here before and I think it's the wrong idea.

Rick, did u miss the above in my post?

No,

I saw it.

On one hand, you are saying it is about salvation when you wrote this:

This little bit is very nonsensical to me... If I start to hate god and lose my faith, am I still saved because honestly I did put my trust in Christ once? And I am still saved if I don't want to be with god? What if its me sincere wish that I be left alone, I don't want to be with god or in heaven. I truly have no interest, then am i still saved? Why can't god respect my fair wish even when it was he who gave me the capacity to wish.

And on the other hand you said it's not about salvation.
So, I addressed the paragraph about salvation, that you said was nonsensical.

[PaulSacramento]

Here is the thing Rick, The Hebrews passage is a good one to address this because it makes clear that some that DID believe and DID have the HS, still fell away and ( according to the writer) can't be saved again.
Their salvation was not assured EVEN THOUGH they accepted and believed and had the HS.
We do NOT know our future, what we will believe tomorrow even.
We do know NOW and, speaking personally, I can't fathom NOT believing in Our Lord and NOT putting all my hopes and faith on Him.
Does that mean this will be the case tomorrow? next month? next year?
I do not know.

I do not subscribe to the view that if a person rejects Christ they were NEVER a "true Christian" and Hebrews states that also ( I don't think anyone here will deny that a person that has had the HS was not a Christian).

Now, does that mean Christ has given up on us?
No I don't think it does.
But that means that our salvation is 100% up to Him REGARDLESS of what we end up believing, right?
I mean, if we lose faith in God but God doesn't lose it in us, are we still saved?

[1over137]

Thanks Rick for posting the link. I think am getting old

Jac's view on Hebrews is that those people will be disciplined by God. Maybe it is so.

Another question for you Rick is: Is it enough to say that one believes? Do they truly? Truly truly? Saying is one thing and being convinced is another.

I do not know whether one may fall away. I know that it may scary some to death.

I simply hope in my Lord. That's it.

[Jac3510]

The Bible doesn't make a distinction between "true" and "false" belief. That's just something people make up. We either believe or we do not. I'm being very serious about this point. Think about how often people say, "Fine, but did they REALLY believe?" We hear that a LOT. And yet not one time--NOT ONE TIME--is that distinction ever brought up in Scripture, and that even so much of the NT was written to believers living in deep sin! If we had met the Galatians or the Corinthians or the Thessalonians or most of the seven churches Jesus wrote to in the Revelation, we would have asked, "But do you TRULY believe?"

The NT never asks that once. It consistently and completely assumed that they had believed, and it speaks to them as fallen believers. So when we make this distinction, we are making an unbiblical one. And I think no reflection, the sad part is WHY we make that distinction. We are so fixated our behavior--people don't act like we think they should act if they were "real" Christians--that we decide to exclude people like that. THOSE people can't REALLY be saved, and so they must not REALLY believe.

That is sad and says a lot about us. It points to a small bit of works-based salvation, of self-justification, still lurking in the back of our minds. And that's understandable, because the sinful, human flesh can't stand the idea that it can't save itself. It WANTS to justify itself,to show off how good it is, to judge others. The idea that others can be saved who we deem to be are sinful and not worth saving? Preposterous! So we judge, and to get the Bible to line up with our message, we deny what it plainly says (whoever believes has everlasting life ~ Jn. 6:47) and believe something it doesn't say (i.e., whoever REALLY believes has everlasting life ~ notinthere 6:66).

I will say, by the way, that neo is right about the last thing he said -- we cannot say that those who have lost their faith have never believed. That's just more nonsense, more intellectual dishonesty, and more making the Bible say what it doesn't. We ought to just affirm what Jesus said. Whoever believes has EVERLASTING life. That means it can't be "lost."

[1over137]

people don't act like we think they should act if they were "real" Christians--that we decide to exclude people like that. THOSE people can't REALLY be saved, and so they must not REALLY believe.

I disagree. I do not have it that connected, that those who act as Christians should not, cannot be true believers.

Also, what does "to believe" mean, really?

[Jac3510]

It means to trust or to rely upon.

And I appreciate your disagreement, and I'm not speaking of you specifically. But I can tell you from the nature of my day job and many, many years of doing this, that what I said is exactly true in general. Perhaps more surprising is that people very often don't understand why they do or say or even think what they do.

[RickD]

Thanks Rick for posting the link. I think am getting old

Jac's view on Hebrews is that those people will be disciplined by God. Maybe it is so.

Another question for you Rick is: Is it enough to say that one believes? Do they truly? Truly truly? Saying is one thing and being convinced is another.

I do not know whether one may fall away. I know that it may scary some to death.

I simply hope in my Lord. That's it.

Jac already answered, but I'll just reaffirm what he said. Trust/rely upon Christ for salvation. Anyone who has done that, has eternal life. Period.

[Philip]

We are so fixated our behavior

That is sad and says a lot about us. It points to a small bit of works-based salvation, of self-justification, still lurking in the back of our minds.

Precisely! WHOSE salvation is it anyway - it certainly isn't ours - wasn't begun and isn't completed by us! And does God woo, draw and bring those receptive to Him to salvation when He well foreknows they would (or even could) later only abandon it - that makes no sense. And, again, not only can one not earn it, but I also don't believe a mere mortal can snatch away the LORD'S salvation. But it IS key as to whether one truly believes VIA THE BIBLICAL DEFINITION OF A BELIEVER IN CHRIST. There are many that give the outward appearances of being a believer when, quite clearly, in their hearts, they are not. Can we always discern such people or know their hearts - frequently not.

And IF a true believer could lose his salvation - based upon his own sin - then how could Paul ever be sure of and write the following:

"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

[RickD]

PaulS wrote:
Here is the thing Rick, The Hebrews passage is a good one to address this because it makes clear that some that DID believe and DID have the HS, still fell away and ( according to the writer) can't be saved again.

Actually Paul, it's NOT clear that's what that passage is saying. It's a passage that has different interpretations. It's not one that is agreed upon by everyone.

We do know NOW and, speaking personally, I can't fathom NOT believing in Our Lord and NOT putting all my hopes and faith on Him.
Does that mean this will be the case tomorrow? next month? next year?

Of course we don't know. I can't tell you that there's nothing that would ever cause me to turn away from God. But thankfully, I don't rely on myself for my salvation. I rely on what Christ has already done. He bought me. I'm His. I'm a new creature. God has given me the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of what is to come. A guarantee from God. And He alone is faithful to finish what he started in me.

I do not subscribe to the view that if a person rejects Christ they were NEVER a "true Christian" and Hebrews states that also ( I don't think anyone here will deny that a person that has had the HS was not a Christian).

Yes Paul, I agree with that. The Holy Spirit in a believer, is God's guarantee of what is to come.
2 Corinthians 1:22
who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Think of the Holy Spirit in us, as God's "down payment". He is faithful, and we will be "paid in full".

But that means that our salvation is 100% up to Him REGARDLESS of what we end up believing, right?
I mean, if we lose faith in God but God doesn't lose it in us, are we still saved?

Of course! He is always faithful. Even when we are not. That is the Grace of God. He bought us. We are His! He will not leave us nor forsake us! Never! Isn't that amazing!

[PaulSacramento]

Here is the thing Rick, if we are saved because of God's grace and His belief in Us, regardless of our belief in Him, then some may argue ( and I am NOT one of them) that belief isn't needed:
Our Salvation is based solely on whether God gives us His Grace and has nothing to do with our beliefs or lack thereof.

[Byblos]

Here is the thing Rick, if we are saved because of God's grace and His belief in Us, regardless of our belief in Him, then some may argue ( and I am NOT one of them) that belief isn't needed:
Our Salvation is based solely on whether God gives us His Grace and has nothing to do with our beliefs or lack thereof.

Uh oh, I could almost see another 'P' word argument ... err ... conversation coming.

[RickD]

B. W.,

Just between you and me, I think you completely overreacted.

And that's coming from a friend. I love you B. W., but I think you...ahem...slightly overreacted.
The heresy Jac was referring to was Lordship Salvation. Not anything else about Bonhoeffer.

He just pointed to the fact that you used Bonhoeffer, who is a lordship proponent, in your argument. After Jac pointed that out, the irony of it was kinda funny.

All the other historical stuff you posted has nothing to do with the heresy Jac was referring to.

Again, once saved always saved, just means that once one trusts Christ, one can't lose salvation. It is the equivalent to eternal security. If some take the term, and twist it, it doesn't change the truth of what it really means.

[B. W.]

B. W.,

Just between you and me, I think you completely overreacted.

And that's coming from a friend. I love you B. W., but I think you...ahem...slightly overreacted.
The heresy Jac was referring to was Lordship Salvation. Not anything else about Bonhoeffer.

He just pointed to the fact that you used Bonhoeffer, who is a lordship proponent, in your argument. After Jac pointed that out, the irony of it was kinda funny.

All the other historical stuff you posted has nothing to do with the heresy Jac was referring to.

Again, once saved always saved, just means that once one trusts Christ, one can't lose salvation. It is the equivalent to eternal security. If some take the term, and twist it, it doesn't change the truth of what it really means.

Maybe I over reacted, yes, but offense cuts both ways...

I know that one cannot lose his or her salvation at all.

All I am saying is that OSAS has been tainted and a re-term should happen or you'll have bothers in Christ soon maiming each other over it.

I did not take anything that Jac said as irony at all due to his choice of words. We are all guilty of not using the perfect wording. To make a reference that the Nazification of the German Church was not heresy - well - how else should one take that? That set me off.

I hope we all can learn from this to try to word things better and realize that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the light...

Such squabbles are to learn from.

I know it is of no account that jac offended me but he did and has nevertheless.
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[RickD]

B. W. wrote:
I did not take anything that Jac said as irony at all due to his choice of words. We are all guilty of not using the perfect wording. To make a reference that the Nazification of the German Church was not heresy - well - how else should one take that? That set me off.

Where did Jac make a reference to the nazification of the German church. All I saw was this that Jac wrote:

You do realize that Bonhoeffer was a major proponent of Lordship Salvation, which is to say, he taught a false gospel, right?

Which was pointing out that Bonhoffoer taught a false gospel because of the heresy of Lordship Salvation that he taught.