Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:
Or if you want to worship on the Biblical Sabbath or Saturday, you can do that too.

G,

Just curious...would you have a problem if someone wanted to perform a "biblical" sacrifice of a lamb on occasion to show his love for God?

Why would I? Ever eat lamb and then thank G-d for the food?

PaulSacramento wrote:
Me counter your text with a text is my point about "proof texting".

Yes, well that a problem because it appeared you couldn't "proof text" my scripture soundly. But to say, in your words "that it doesn't work" then why use the Bible at all?

PaulSacramento wrote:Do I think we need the bible?
Yes of course, 100%.
I read it almost every day.
It should never take the place of Christ and the HS in Us of course.

The Bible claims that it was written by men through the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21. Question: If it was written through the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't I use it for instruction from the Holy Spirit?

PaulSacramento wrote:The bible is and always will be the number 1 tool that points to Christ.
That said, it's place as number 1 tool may at times fluctuate with other things.
I came to Christ NOT by the bible, but by something else.
As have others that I have known.
After coming to Christ the bible has been indispensable to me.

Sure, but in order to hear about Christ, it must have come via the Bible or someone who understood Christ in the Bible. Correct?

neo-x wrote:
I am happy that you feel this way. What is your usual routine of sabbaths?

I spend it with other believers on Saturday with my Jewish and Gentile friends..

PaulSacramento wrote: OT dude, for Israel:
For you shall labour 6 days and rest the 7th.
Exodus 34, 20, Deutronomy 5
.

Don't forget that Christian’s graft into the commonwealth of Israel and are co-citizens of the estate and covenants with the Jews (Ephesians 2:11-13, 19, Ephesians 3:6, Romans 11:11-24)...

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to the Sabbath, the bible states that we are to work 6 days and rest on the 7th.
Doesn't state WHAT day per say.
Some points are made here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

Um.. Not exactly, the Jews have been keeping a very good record of it according to the Bible.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resour ... f-the-week

Gman wrote:

neo-x wrote:
I am happy that you feel this way. What is your usual routine of sabbaths?

I spend it with other believers on Saturday with my Jewish and Gentile friends..

Thanks, is it like an informal bible discussion thing or just causal chit chat? DO you read the Bible and study as a group?

Gman wrote:

RickD wrote:

Gman wrote:
Or if you want to worship on the Biblical Sabbath or Saturday, you can do that too.

G,

Just curious...would you have a problem if someone wanted to perform a "biblical" sacrifice of a lamb on occasion to show his love for God?

Why would I? Ever eat lamb and then thank G-d for the food?

Believers should have a problem with biblical animal sacrifice, because it makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. OT animal sacrifices pointed to Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice is the ultimate sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world. Anyone who still sacrifices animals as they did in the OT, is in effect, saying Christ's sacrifice wasn't efficacious.

Similarly, the OT sabbaths pointed to the True Sabbath, Jesus Christ. He is a believer's Sabbath rest. So, those who hold the OT sabbath, are in effect denying that Christ is the Sabbath.

If a believer wants to take one day of the week to worship God, that's fine. If a believer thinks of everyday as the same, that's fine too. But by observing something that Christ did away with (Sabbath laws) by His incarnation, death, and resurrection, that believer empties the power of the Cross.

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:
Me counter your text with a text is my point about "proof texting".

Yes, well that a problem because it appeared you couldn't "proof text" my scripture soundly. But to say, in your words "that it doesn't work" then why use the Bible at all?

PaulSacramento wrote:Do I think we need the bible?
Yes of course, 100%.
I read it almost every day.
It should never take the place of Christ and the HS in Us of course.

The Bible claims that it was written by men through the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21. Question: If it was written through the Holy Spirit, then why wouldn't I use it for instruction from the Holy Spirit?

PaulSacramento wrote:The bible is and always will be the number 1 tool that points to Christ.
That said, it's place as number 1 tool may at times fluctuate with other things.
I came to Christ NOT by the bible, but by something else.
As have others that I have known.
After coming to Christ the bible has been indispensable to me.

Sure, but in order to hear about Christ, it must have come via the Bible or someone who understood Christ in the Bible. Correct?

Actually I proof texted it soundly, whether you agree or not is up to you, which is another issue with proof texting.
What the bible says about itself is not relevant to what the bible is, you can't play the game of circular reasoning and that is why apologist typically don't.
Yes, I heard about Christ from people that thought they knew the bible, as has everyone else.
Some people come to Christ that way, others don't.
I am sure that if there was no bible that Christ would still be heard, don't you agree?
That ONE of the ways He has chosen to be "heard" is through the bible is what gives it authority.
Of course we can also hear Christ in other ways too.
We see His works in the universe around Us and KNOW Him by the HS in Us.

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to the Sabbath, the bible states that we are to work 6 days and rest on the 7th.
Doesn't state WHAT day per say.
Some points are made here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

Um.. Not exactly, the Jews have been keeping a very good record of it according to the Bible.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resour ... f-the-week

That's great but all the points out ( besides insinuating that the Jews borrowed the Sabbath day from the Mesopotamian's since they had it first) is that the last day of the week was the Sabbath.
Which means that in a society that the first day of the week is Monday ( like ours), the last would be Sunday.
In a society where the first day of the week is Sunday, it would be Saturday.
And so forth.

The point is that nowhere in the bible does it say WHAT day is the Sabbath and, according to your link, the Hebrews appropriate the Mesopotamian work week to decide what day it was.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Gman wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:In regards to the Sabbath, the bible states that we are to work 6 days and rest on the 7th.
Doesn't state WHAT day per say.
Some points are made here:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Saturday-Sunday.html

Um.. Not exactly, the Jews have been keeping a very good record of it according to the Bible.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/free-resour ... f-the-week

That's great but all the points out ( besides insinuating that the Jews borrowed the Sabbath day from the Mesopotamian's since they had it first) is that the last day of the week was the Sabbath.
Which means that in a society that the first day of the week is Monday ( like ours), the last would be Sunday.
In a society where the first day of the week is Sunday, it would be Saturday.
And so forth.

The point is that nowhere in the bible does it say WHAT day is the Sabbath and, according to your link, the Hebrews appropriate the Mesopotamian work week to decide what day it was.

I hate to be a stickler Paul but in the West Sunday is the first day of the week on the Gregorian calendar and Saturday is the last, or at least that is what I was taught at school. In no way do I agree with taking a sabbath on a particular day, just pointing out a flaw in the argument.

RickD wrote: Believers should have a problem with biblical animal sacrifice, because it makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. OT animal sacrifices pointed to Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice is the ultimate sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world. Anyone who still sacrifices animals as they did in the OT, is in effect, saying Christ's sacrifice wasn't efficacious.

Careful amigo.. The Apostle Paul sacrificed animals after the death of Christ in Acts 21:26, Acts 24:17. Also "sacrifice" was instigated by G-d almighty. Are His commandments ever wrong?

More about sacrifice. It could NEVER take away sins whether it was in the what you call OT or NT.

Hebrews 10:11 Now every cohen stands every day doing his service, offering over and over the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

So yes, they have been superseded by Christ, but they are not exactly bad either if we put them in the proper context.

RickD wrote:Similarly, the OT sabbaths pointed to the True Sabbath, Jesus Christ. He is a believer's Sabbath rest. So, those who hold the OT sabbath, are in effect denying that Christ is the Sabbath.

Again, be very careful with your words amigo.. The Bible records for us believers who were still honoring the Sabbath some 30 years after the death of Christ including the Apostle Paul.

Acts 13:13-14 From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in Pamphylia, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. 14 From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 13:42-44 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 15:21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

Acts 16:13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there.

Acts 17:2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

RickD wrote:If a believer wants to take one day of the week to worship God, that's fine. If a believer thinks of everyday as the same, that's fine too. But by observing something that Christ did away with (Sabbath laws) by His incarnation, death, and resurrection, that believer empties the power of the Cross.

Actually your Bible records that if you find Jesus's commandment on the Sabbath a delight, then you will find joy in the Lord, not emptiness.

Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, 14 then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

PaulSacramento wrote: Actually I proof texted it soundly, whether you agree or not is up to you, which is another issue with proof texting.
What the bible says about itself is not relevant to what the bible is, you can't play the game of circular reasoning and that is why apologist typically don't.

I'm not sure where you are going with this only that it seems that anything that opposes your logic or comprehension is called a "game of circular reasoning."

PaulSacramento wrote:Yes, I heard about Christ from people that thought they knew the bible, as has everyone else.
Some people come to Christ that way, others don't.
I am sure that if there was no bible that Christ would still be heard, don't you agree?

No.. I don't agree.

PaulSacramento wrote:That ONE of the ways He has chosen to be "heard" is through the bible is what gives it authority.
Of course we can also hear Christ in other ways too.
We see His works in the universe around Us and KNOW Him by the HS in Us.

I'm sure G-d can reach people any way he can, but if you think His word, or the Bible is just another book, then no, I would disagree. As I have explained before G-d has given His commandments for our benefits Deuteronomy 4:40, not our hardship..

PaulSacramento wrote:That's great but all the points out ( besides insinuating that the Jews borrowed the Sabbath day from the Mesopotamian's since they had it first) is that the last day of the week was the Sabbath.
Which means that in a society that the first day of the week is Monday ( like ours), the last would be Sunday.
In a society where the first day of the week is Sunday, it would be Saturday.
And so forth.

The point is that nowhere in the bible does it say WHAT day is the Sabbath and, according to your link, the Hebrews appropriate the Mesopotamian work week to decide what day it was.

You need to read the article a little further.. The article it stating that the sabbath goes back to the time of creation or Adam and Eve.

As it states...

"This is another proof that the Sabbath and the words used to designate the seventh day of the week as the "Sabbath day" originated at Creation in complete harmony with the biblical record found in Genesis 2:1-3."

Slovak names of days are interesting:

Pondelok (monday) - after Sunday
Utorok - second day
Streda - in the middle
Stvrtok - fourth day
Piatok - fifth day
Sobota - from latin Sabbata
Nedela - day of doing nothing

RickD wrote:Believers should have a problem with biblical animal sacrifice, because it makes a mockery of the cross of Christ. OT animal sacrifices pointed to Christ's sacrifice. Christ's sacrifice is the ultimate sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world. Anyone who still sacrifices animals as they did in the OT, is in effect, saying Christ's sacrifice wasn't efficacious.

Gman wrote:
Careful amigo.. The Apostle Paul sacrificed animals after the death of Christ in Acts 21:26, Acts 24:17.

Gman,
Those verses don't say anything about Paul sacrificing animals. You just read your beliefs into those verses.
Let's take Acts 21:26 first. Here's the context:
15 After these days we got ready and started on our way up to Jerusalem. 16 Some of the disciples from Caesarea also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, a disciple of long standing with whom we were to lodge.

17 After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. 18 And the following day Paul went in with us to [c]James, and all the elders were present. 19 After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. 20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many [d]thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to [e]walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who [f]are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and [g]pay their expenses so that they may shave their [h]heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law. 25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication.” 26 Then Paul [j]took the men, and the next day, purifying himself along with them, went into the temple giving notice of the completion of the days of purification, until the sacrifice was offered for each one of them.

Paul took the four men to the temple to fulfill their vows. It doesn't say Paul sacrificed animals.

Gman wrote:
Also "sacrifice" was instigated by G-d almighty. Are His commandments ever wrong?

Of course not. Context is key here. If you are going to claim you or anyone else should obey the Sabbath because it's God's command which is never wrong, then you must stone homosexual offenders too. God commanded them to be stoned, right? And God's commands are never wrong, correct?

Gman wrote:
More about sacrifice. It could NEVER take away sins whether it was in the what you call OT or NT.

Yes. The OT sacrifices pointed forward to Christ, the ultimate sacrifice. Now that Christ has come, what is the point of still performing animal sacrifices?

So yes, they have been superseded by Christ, but they are not exactly bad either if we put them in the proper context.

And of course the proper context of OT sacrifices, is that they're done away with because of Christ's sacrifice. Which means that we as believers should not perform animal sacrifices anymore.

RickD wrote:Similarly, the OT sabbaths pointed to the True Sabbath, Jesus Christ. He is a believer's Sabbath rest. So, those who hold the OT sabbath, are in effect denying that Christ is the Sabbath.

Gman wrote:
Again, be very careful with your words amigo.. The Bible records for us believers who were still honoring the Sabbath some 30 years after the death of Christ including the Apostle Paul.

Acts 13:13-14 From Paphos, Paul and his companions sailed to Perga in Pamphylia, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. 14 From Perga they went on to Pisidian Antioch. On the Sabbath they entered the synagogue and sat down.

Acts 13:42-44 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath. 43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.

44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.

Acts 15:21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.

Acts 16:13 On the Sabbath we went outside the city gate to the river, where we expected to find a place of prayer. We sat down and began to speak to the women who had gathered there.

Acts 17:2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Gman,

None of those verses show Paul was observing the sabbath. You are reading your beliefs into the text again. Those verses simply show that Paul and others went to the synagogues on the Sabbath, to preach the gospel. If someone wants to preach the gospel to as many Jews as possible, wouldn't the best place and time be at the synagogue on the Sabbath, where there are a lot of Jews to preach to?

RickD wrote:If a believer wants to take one day of the week to worship God, that's fine. If a believer thinks of everyday as the same, that's fine too. But by observing something that Christ did away with (Sabbath laws) by His incarnation, death, and resurrection, that believer empties the power of the Cross.

Gman wrote:

Actually your Bible records that if you find Jesus's commandment on the Sabbath a delight, then you will find joy in the Lord, not emptiness.

Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, 14 then you will find your joy in the LORD, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken

Gman,

Context is key. Isaiah wasn't written to gentile believers. Isaiah ministered and wrote to the people of Jerusalem and Judah. So, those verses in Isaiah were written to Jews, not to gentile believers.

You are making a great effort to read your theology into scripture to try to back up your belief that gentile believers should follow the OT law.