Evidence for God from Science

Ottoman wrote:I didn't think so either, but I heard someone mention it.

Maybe there was something in the context that made a difference, but I'd have to see exactly what was said in order to know.

I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

It says:

9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

So, obeying Christ is "WORK" ??

I guess if we look at "doing anything" as work then even believing (since we have to actually DO IT, ie: believe) is work.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

It says:

9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

So, obeying Christ is "WORK" ??

I guess if we look at "doing anything" as work then even believing (since we have to actually DO IT, ie: believe) is work.

It depends on what one means by "obey".

And, believing is not a work. Believing, as in John 3:16 type believing, is trusting. In order to trust in Christ, and what he's done for salvation, we need to stop trying to work.

RickD wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

It says:

9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

So, obeying Christ is "WORK" ??

I guess if we look at "doing anything" as work then even believing (since we have to actually DO IT, ie: believe) is work.

It depends on what one means by "obey".

And, believing is not a work. Believing, as in John 3:16 type believing, is trusting. In order to trust in Christ, and what he's done for salvation, we need to stop trying to work.

Indeed, people seem to be looking for passages that they want to mean that one must DO SOMETHING to be saved, as if Christ's sacrifice and resurrection were not enough.

I understand that for many the hardest thing to do is to TRUST someone ELSE, even if that someone else is Jesus.
They prefer to relay on themselves, their own "good works".
The paradox of faith and belief is that they are the easiest AND hardest things for us to do.

Paul, no, believing is not a work. The obey in Hebrew 5:9 appears, IMO, to mean keep the commandments (i.e., the law) which goes against what the Bible says. That is why I posted the question about this verse.

Hebrews 4:6 "Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"

Unbelief appears to be synonymous with disobedience according to Strongs, so would it suffice to say that obey in Hebrew 5:9 means to believe? Is there a simpler way to understand this verse?

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Context, there is always a context and continuity that answers question you just pointed out.

Heb 5:9, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... NASB

Go back to..

Heb 4:15,16, For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. NKJV

How do you obey - Ottman?

Is the context of Heb 5:9 eternal salvation or not? Does John 3:16 deal with such salvation? Is he the source of eternal salvation or is it what we do - or else?

Heb 5:9,10,11 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. NKJV

Continues on as the writer of Hebrews begins to go into greater details...

Heb 7:11,12,14,15,16, Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law ...... 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. NKJV

Obey the letter of the law is not what is meant in Heb 5:9 as the next verses in chapter seven point out:

Heb 7:17,18,19, For He testifies: "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.NKJV

Heb 7:20,21,22,23-28, And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT RELENT, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK' "), 22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. NKJV

Now notice chapter Nine and what does it say?

Heb 9:14,15, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV

Again continuity and flow is about eternal life - correct?

So how do obey God?

Php 2:13,14,15, ...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world... NKJV

God works through you and I to do what? Note verses 14 and 15 and how it ties in back into:

Heb 13:1-6, Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also. 4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU." 6 So we may boldly say: "THE LORD IS MY HELPER; I WILL NOT FEAR. WHAT CAN MAN DO TO ME?"

Heb 13:7 -8 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Heb 13:9 -14 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

Heb 13:15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:18 Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. 19 But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Heb 13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. NKJV

We have a lot to learn - do we not? And we learn by our failures. God's grace teaches us this, he works in us how to shine his own light more and less the worlds darkness every mortal day we trod upon this earth.

Do not look at these sorts of things the bible says like this as a Must Do or Else (Gal 5:16-26, Romans chapter 12, etc) but rather guidelines for learning to be responsible to God and each other.

The 10 Commandments were actually List Ten Responsibilities before God and Man. Then man twisted these to become - Obey or Else - and not as a testimony of the responsibility humanity lost during the fall in the Garden of Eden to relearn.

The Law of the sacrifice pointed to Jesus who would clothe his people with the garment of himself so we learn by God's Grace and not by the baseball bat of Obey or Else law...

1 John 1:9 sheds light upon Titus 2:11-15...

Therefore how do we obey?

Simple trust in what the Lord has done for us from a willing heart to learn by failures how to live responsibly before God and Man...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NKJV

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... Heb 5:9, NASB
-
-
-

Exodus 17:11 "As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning."

Do you guys believe this actually happened?

I see it more as someone writing it down to give glory to God and to let those who read it know how He helped them and He is to be thanked for that as opposed to writing down an actual event (like with Jericho).

Moses was the first orchestra conductor of course

Hortator wrote:Moses was the first orchestra conductor of course

Lol. Hortator you did not use the avatar I gave you. Much disappoint.

IceMobster wrote:Exodus 17:11 "As long as Moses held up his hands, the Israelites were winning, but whenever he lowered his hands, the Amalekites were winning."

Do you guys believe this actually happened?

I see it more as someone writing it down to give glory to God and to let those who read it know how He helped them and He is to be thanked for that as opposed to writing down an actual event (like with Jericho).

I see it more as someone who was used in an obscure way to show God is not only in control but working for them. Yes, I think it's an actual event and I don't understand why someone (who believes in some sort of God) would have a problem with it. Why does it bother you?

B. W. wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Context, there is always a context and continuity that answers question you just pointed out.

Heb 5:9, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... NASB

Go back to..

Heb 4:15,16, For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16 Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. NKJV

How do you obey - Ottman?

Is the context of Heb 5:9 eternal salvation or not? Does John 3:16 deal with such salvation? Is he the source of eternal salvation or is it what we do - or else?

Heb 5:9,10,11 And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, 10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. NKJV

Continues on as the writer of Hebrews begins to go into greater details...

Heb 7:11,12,14,15,16, Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law ...... 14 For it is evident that our Lord arose from Judah, of which tribe Moses spoke nothing concerning priesthood. 15 And it is yet far more evident if, in the likeness of Melchizedek, there arises another priest 16 who has come, not according to the law of a fleshly commandment, but according to the power of an endless life. NKJV

Obey the letter of the law is not what is meant in Heb 5:9 as the next verses in chapter seven point out:

Heb 7:17,18,19, For He testifies: "YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK." 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.NKJV

Heb 7:20,21,22,23-28, And inasmuch as He was not made priest without an oath 21 (for they have become priests without an oath, but He with an oath by Him who said to Him: "THE LORD HAS SWORN AND WILL NOT RELENT, 'YOU ARE A PRIEST FOREVER ACCORDING TO THE ORDER OF MELCHIZEDEK' "), 22 by so much more Jesus has become a surety of a better covenant. NKJV

Now notice chapter Nine and what does it say?

Heb 9:14,15, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. NKJV

Again continuity and flow is about eternal life - correct?

So how do obey God?

Php 2:13,14,15, ...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. 14 Do all things without complaining and disputing, 15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world... NKJV

God works through you and I to do what? Note verses 14 and 15 and how it ties in back into:

Heb 13:1-6, Let brotherly love continue. 2 Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels. Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also. 4 Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge. 5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU NOR FORSAKE YOU." 6 So we may boldly say: "THE LORD IS MY HELPER; I WILL NOT FEAR. WHAT CAN MAN DO TO ME?"

Heb 13:7 -8 Remember those who rule over you, who have spoken the word of God to you, whose faith follow, considering the outcome of their conduct. 8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Heb 13:9 -14 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them. 10 We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.

Heb 13:15 Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. 16 But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. 17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

Heb 13:18 Pray for us; for we are confident that we have a good conscience, in all things desiring to live honorably. 19 But I especially urge you to do this, that I may be restored to you the sooner.

Heb 13:20 Now may the God of peace who brought up our Lord Jesus from the dead, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, 21 make you complete in every good work to do His will, working in you what is well pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.

Heb 13:25 Grace be with you all. Amen. NKJV

We have a lot to learn - do we not? And we learn by our failures. God's grace teaches us this, he works in us how to shine his own light more and less the worlds darkness every mortal day we trod upon this earth.

Do not look at these sorts of things the bible says like this as a Must Do or Else (Gal 5:16-26, Romans chapter 12, etc) but rather guidelines for learning to be responsible to God and each other.

The 10 Commandments were actually List Ten Responsibilities before God and Man. Then man twisted these to become - Obey or Else - and not as a testimony of the responsibility humanity lost during the fall in the Garden of Eden to relearn.

The Law of the sacrifice pointed to Jesus who would clothe his people with the garment of himself so we learn by God's Grace and not by the baseball bat of Obey or Else law...

1 John 1:9 sheds light upon Titus 2:11-15...

Therefore how do we obey?

Simple trust in what the Lord has done for us from a willing heart to learn by failures how to live responsibly before God and Man...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NKJV

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... Heb 5:9, NASB
-
-
-

So...we must do something other than trust Christ's substitutionary atonement then?

What is Isiah 4:1 about?

UsagiTsukino wrote:What is Isiah 4:1 about?

It refers to a time back in the day when there was a shortage of men, or it refers to a time in the future when MGTOW is so popular women will cling to men.

SoCalExile wrote: ↑Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:46 am

B. W. wrote:

Ottoman wrote:I am having a hard time reconciling Hebrews 5:9 with justification by faith alone that Paul preached. Does Heb 5:9 teach salvation by works or am I missing something?

Context, there is always a context and continuity that answers question you just pointed out.

Heb 5:9, And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... NASB

Go back to..

Heb 4:15,16...

Therefore how do we obey?

Simple trust in what the Lord has done for us from a willing heart to learn by failures how to live responsibly before God and Man...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9 NKJV

And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation... Heb 5:9, NASB
-
-
-

So...we must do something other than trust Christ's substitutionary atonement then?

No, those who trust will obey! We can't say we trust God and then not obey him, the two are inseparable.

"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mt 7:21)

Blessings,
Lee