Evidence for God from Science

Starhunter wrote:Yes, there's a degree of overlap between the literal and spiritual as well, or as you said metaphor.

I am used to going head to head with people on issues of doctrine or science, particularly with atheists, for years, but I am not as comfortable with battle as then. I was driven by my determination to break down falsehood, especially the misrepresentation of God. But since joining a Christian site...it's different, and I even thought of leaving for fear of misrepresenting truth by a lack of heart knowledge as opposed to intellectual buzz.

I can't tell if I am thinking straight, but for some reason I don't want to be "correct" ... I can't explain it.

I suggest that you study the role of the Holy Spirit in our lives and then asking to be filled with His ability to understand and comprehend scripture every day. Often we try to go toe to toe with atheist with only mind knowledge but lack the heart knowledge the Holy Spirit freely gives. So here is a book I also suggest to this subject titled - Holy Fire by R T Kendall

Also go online and Look up R. A Torrey works on the Holy Spirit too: here are two links for a fair and balanced approach on this subject:

RA Torrey, The Person and work of the Holy Spirit

R A Torrey - Baptism of the Holy Spirit

Combine these and you will do well and God bless...
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One of the great difficulties with the popular view of final punishment or hell is the profound silence of the Old Testament. Everywhere we find God warning sinners to repent. He threatens judgment for disobedience and carries it out on many occasions. But the idea of endless torture after death is extremely obscure.

God threatened Adam and Eve with death as a punishment for their sin. This He defined, not as an eternity of pain, but as a return to the dust of the earth (Gen. 3:19). Many Bible teachers will point out that God said "in the day you eat of it [the tree of knowledge of good and evil] you shall die" (Gen. 2:17). Their reasoning is that because the pair did not drop dead the same day they sinned, the "death" must be of a different kind.

This does not follow. The Hebrews often spoke in an anticipative or proleptic sense. That which is certain to happen is spoken of as a present reality. For an example, when Abimelech took Abraham's wife, God said to him, "Behold, you are a dead man" (Gen. 20:3). In other words, death was imminent, though not literally present.

The absence of explicit instructions regarding the punishment due Adam and Eve - and their posterity - is bewildering in light of the common view. Did God send sinners to hell for thousands of years before He ever disclosed this awful fact? We wonder how God could have warned Israel in precise detail about plagues, droughts and other punishments without saying a word about the worst punishment of all. Read the penalties for disobedience to the Mosaic Law (Deut. 28:15-68). Where are the warnings of hellfire in a future life?

Not a word came from the lips of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob about an endless hell. Likewise, Moses, Joshua, the Judges of Israel and the Psalmists are silent on the matter. The prophets of Israel and Judah, though they say much of God's wrath, fail to teach anything about torments after death. Jeremiah does mention "the valley of the son of Himmon" (Jer. 7:32), which any Bible dictionary will identify as the Gehenna or hell spoken of by Jesus. But in this text, the prophet calls this place "the Valley of Slaughter." Anyone can see that "slaughter" is something entirely different than an endless existence in agony.

Isaiah mentions "everlasting burnings" in his prophecy (Isa. 33:14). But, amazingly, he calls this judgment "the devouring fire." This contradicts what many Christians teach about hell. Sinners are supposed to writhe in the flames without ever being devoured. But Isaiah denies it. He also says that no one can dwell in the everlasting burnings, despite the view that hell is "the eternal abode of sinners."

The many occurances of the word "hell" in the King James Version of the Old Testament are the result of faulty translating. Modern versions of Scripture have corrected the error. They seldom, if ever, render the Hebrew word sheol in this way. Instead, we read such words as "the pit," "the grave" or "death." The same is true of the New Testament word hades, which should never have been translated "hell" in the first place. Check any Bible dictionary.

Many times, the prophets of Israel mention fire in connection with divine judgment. But they always present fire as an agent of destruction, not torment in a future life. Zephaniah, for example, said, "In the fire of his jealous wrath, all the earth shall be consumed" (Zeph. 1:18). Malachi said, "the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of Hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch" (Mal. 4:1). He goes on to say that the wicked would be reduced to ashes under the feet of the righteous (verses 2,3).

Jesus spoke of a final judgment in which God would "destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matt. 10:28). This text is so ruinous to the common view that Bible teachers have assigned a theological meaning to the word "destroy." Many who claim to "take the Bible literally" escape the obvious meaning here by re-defining "destroy" as eternal, conscious separation from God. But the Bible nowhere else uses "destroy" in such a self-contradictory manner.

The word "hell" is translated from the word Gehenna, seldom used in the Scripture. Once the sight of idolatrous worship, it was a garbage dump outside Jerusalem where the bodies of executed criminals were cast. Worms fed on the carcasses. The imagery was familiar to the Jews. When Jesus said that the wicked would be destroyed in Gehenna, everyone knew what he meant.

In Mark 9:48, Jesus speaks of a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." But this does not prove endless torments. The passage is actually a quote from Isaiah 66:24: "And they shall go forth and look on the dead bodies of the men that have rebelled against me; for their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." The fire and worms are feeding on corpses, not "never-dying souls."

Jesus does speak of "eternal punishment" in Matthew 25:48. But we would affirm that the destruction of evildoers in divine wrath qualifies in every way as an eternal punishment. The effects of such a punishment last forever, as long as the eternal life enjoyed by the righteous. The wicked will be extinct, never to rise again. The punishment is eternal.

Some may object that we are playing games with words. But the authors of Scripture often use "eternal" to modify an activity that takes place in limited time, as long as the effects are ongoing. For example, the Bible uses the term "eternal redemption" to signify a once-for-all event with ongoing effects. Jesus Christ is not eternally redeeming his people. He did that in time, on the cross. But the effects of his redemption stretch into eternity.

Jesus often informed his hearers that unbelievers will perish in the judgment (Luke 13:1-5; John 3:16) and not see life (John 3:36). They would be gathered and burned, as men burn withered sticks (John 15:6). The meanings of these words were evident to the common people of his day.

Many will appeal to the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke 16 as proof of eternal torment. But the story is admitted on all hands as non-literal in many respects. Few believe that the story is an accurate account of what goes on after death. The Hebrew imagery of the dead carrying on conversations is not unique (Isa. 14:3-10). Furthermore, the story does not deal with the final punishment at all. It is a pre-resurrection account (verses 27, 28) and does not address the duration of punishment after the Judgment Day.

The apostles taught the same view. Read the evangelistic sermons in the Book of Acts and see if they speak a word about eternal torments. Peter said, "every soul that does not listen to that prophet [Jesus] shall be destroyed from the people" (Acts 3:23). Destruction, not endless suffering, is the end of God's Judgment.

The epistles take up the same idea. Paul, who "did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable," (Acts 20:20) warns no one about eternal torment. On the contrary, he writes of those whose "end is destruction" (Phil. 3:19) and of the ungodly who will face "eternal destruction" at the coming of the Lord (2 Thes. 1:8,9).

"The wages of sin," says Paul, "is death" (Rom. 6:23). He does not tell his readers, "the wages of sin is to burn in hell without dying." Again, the apostle says that "if you live according to the flesh, you will die" (Rom. 8:13). If eternal torment is true, why would he cloak the doctrine in ambiguity - especially considering the gravity of the matter?

Peter also teaches the destruction of the wicked on Judgment Day. He likens their fate unto the incineration of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet. 2:6,7). James speaks of the unrighteous rich who will be led off to slaughter and consumed by their wealth (James 5:1-5).

In Revelation 14:10,11, we read that God torments those who worship the beast, adding "the smoke of their torments goes up forever and ever." But this is language borrowed from the destruction of Edom (Isa. 34:10), it has nothing to do with misery in a future life. There is nothing in the text that demands such a thing.

The testimony of both the testaments is conclusive: the wicked will most surely perish. "The Lord preserves all who love him; but all the wicked will he destroy" (Psa. 145:20).

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/endless.html

Isaiah 24:21-22, So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth. 22 They will be gathered together Like prisoners in the dungeon, And will be confined in prison; And after many days they will be punished.

Ezekiel 26:20 then I will bring you down with those who go down to the pit, to the people of old, and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth, like the ancient waste places, with those who go down to the pit, so that you will not be inhabited; but I will set glory in the land of the living.

Rev 20:13, " And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds." NASB

Job 26:5-6, The departed spirits tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants. 6 "Naked is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has no covering.

Ezekiel 32:18-21 "Son of man, wail for the hordes of Egypt and bring it down, her and the daughters of the powerful nations, to the nether world, with those who go down to the pit; 19 'Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and make your bed with the uncircumcised.' 20 "They shall fall in the midst of those who are slain by the sword. She is given over to the sword; they have drawn her and all her hordes away. 21 "The strong among the mighty ones shall speak of him and his helpers from the midst of Sheol, 'They have gone down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.'

Ezekiel 32:22-13, "Assyria is there and all her company; her graves are round about her. All of them are slain, fallen by the sword, 23 whose graves are set in the remotest parts of the pit and her company is round about her grave. All of them are slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living.

Ezekiel 32:24-26 "Elam is there and all her hordes around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised to the lower parts of the earth, who instilled their terror in the land of the living and bore their disgrace with those who went down to the pit.25 "They have made a bed for her among the slain with all her hordes. Her graves are around it, they are all uncircumcised, slain by the sword (although their terror was instilled in the land of the living), and they bore their disgrace with those who go down to the pit; they were put in the midst of the slain.

Ezekiel 32:26-28 "Meshech, Tubal and all their hordes are there; their graves surround them. All of them were slain by the sword uncircumcised, though they instilled their terror in the land of the living. 27 "Nor do they lie beside the fallen heroes of the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war and whose swords were laid under their heads; but the punishment for their iniquity rested on their bones, though the terror of these heroes was once in the land of the living. 28 "But in the midst of the uncircumcised you will be broken and lie with those slain by the sword.

Ezekiel 32:29-30 "There also is Edom, its kings and all its princes, who for all their might are laid with those slain by the sword; they will lie with the uncircumcised and with those who go down to the pit. 30 "There also are the chiefs of the north, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who in spite of the terror resulting from their might, in shame went down with the slain. So they lay down uncircumcised with those slain by the sword and bore their disgrace with those who go down to the pit.

Ezekiel 32:31 "These Pharaoh will see, and he will be comforted for all his hordes slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his army," declares the Lord GOD. 32 "Though I instilled a terror of him in the land of the living, yet he will be made to lie down among the uncircumcised along with those slain by the sword, even Pharaoh and all his hordes," declares the Lord GOD.

Isaiah 14:9-10, Sheol from beneath is excited over you to meet you when you come; It arouses for you the spirits of the dead, all the leaders of the earth; It raises all the kings of the nations from their thrones. 10 "They will all respond and say to you, 'Even you have been made weak as we, You have become like us.

Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to Sheol, Descending to the chambers of death.

Psalms 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol, Even all the nations who forget God.

Psalms 11:5-6, The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates. :6 Upon the wicked He will rain snares; Fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.

Numbers 16:33, So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

Mat 25:41,46, Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels...46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Bible quotes are from the NASB

The OT most certainly says enough about the state of the current Hell. There are more that describe it as hopeless place, where all memory of those reside will fade in the memory of the living. Inhabitants are described as cognizant, able to speak, without hope, future, without wisdom, banished away from all love and hope - they tremble and fear. Jesus descibes this part of Sheol, the pit, in Luke 16:19-31 like this as well too.

In just these approx 24 verses, there is enough detail and warning too avoid this place. What would you do while driving your car if you passed 24 warning signs telling you that the bridge is out up ahead: would you turn around or drive your car fast headlong along the road?

Don't agree with the article because it ignores the warning signs and tells others, the road is fine - full speed ahead!
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I read and I tremble of "judgement" ., for there is a judgement coming upon all man., I fear it, because I am human, and without that fear of God in me, I am sure I would sin left and right without regards., as it is, I sin every day., there's not a day that I don't deserve to be judged and be condemned., so is me, so is every one else., there's not one just among us but Christ., all of us down here in this every day world are sinners, day in and night out., don't no one be deceived otherwise., don't let your self righteous deceive you., all of us "will be judged" ., there will be those who think that because of their good deeds, their educated status, their long life of service, their scriptural learning, or their every day workings, that they will jot be judged., that the blood of our Lord forgets everything., that He cleanses everything., but our Lord judges everything, and gives accordingly., the last will be the first., the least will be the greatest., that doesn't mean that you wont make it to heaven, per say, but that does carry the understanding that if you think yourself that great in learning and understanding -even though you are partakers of the promise- it doesn't necessarily say that you wont be judged according to your heart and mind in your actions while in the service of the Lord., so too, those who have disbelieved and have become corrupt in their ways, they too will be judged and given ~> appropriate "judgement"


But, will that judgement violate God's merciful and righteous ways?

Lonewolf wrote:I read and I tremble of "judgement" ., for there is a judgement coming upon all man., I fear it, because I am human, and without that fear of God in me, I am sure I would sin left and right without regards., as it is, I sin every day., there's not a day that I don't deserve to be judged and be condemned., so is me, so is every one else., there's not one just among us but Christ., all of us down here in this every day world are sinners, day in and night out., don't no one be deceived otherwise., don't let your self righteous deceive you., all of us "will be judged" ., there will be those who think that because of their good deeds, their educated status, their long life of service, their scriptural learning, or their every day workings, that they will jot be judged., that the blood of our Lord forgets everything., that He cleanses everything., but our Lord judges everything, and gives accordingly., the last will be the first., the least will be the greatest., that doesn't mean that you wont make it to heaven, per say, but that does carry the understanding that if you think yourself that great in learning and understanding -even though you are partakers of the promise- it doesn't necessarily say that you wont be judged according to your heart and mind in your actions while in the service of the Lord., so too, those who have disbelieved and have become corrupt in their ways, they too will be judged and given ~> appropriate "judgement"


But, will that judgement violate God's merciful and righteous ways?

No, not at all... if I am reading you correctly...
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Isaiah 24:21-22 .. That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth

Ezekiel 26:20 .. and I will make you dwell in the lower parts of the earth

Rev 20:13 .. and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds."

Ezekiel 32:18-21 .. they have gone down, they lie still,

Ezekiel 32:22-13 .. whose graves are set in the remotest parts of the pit and her company is round about her grave. All of them are slain,

Numbers 16:33, So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly.

In all of the reference scripture posted and more, I read that there will be a judgement, and everyone must account for their deeds, and those who are not found in the book of life will dwell in an everlasting punishment, but in all of that read in scripture posted, I fail to read or understand that punishment being an eternal "life" in torment (?)

If life is God, and there is no life outside of Him, and if death is no more, how can someone be alive in torment but yet separated from God spiritually, in other words "dead" .. death would have continued spiritually or otherwise, no?

Lonewolf wrote:...If life is God, and there is no life outside of Him, and if death is no more, how can someone be alive in torment but yet separated from God spiritually, in other words "dead" .. death would have continued spiritually or otherwise, no?

There are certain metaphors for death. For example, the heroin and meth addict live a living death. A person abandoned, rejected, mocked, and ignored by his/her own parents live life in a living death too. Another can live in a life in which one is forced to perform in order to win parental approval while growing up and as such, live in a living death as an adult. Still, another person can be spoiled rotten and thus live in the death of egocentric narcissism. You see, the word meaning for death contains many nuances of meaning and is not limited cessation of life by the mortal body and its decay in the grave. In fact, terrorist groups in the Middle east create (ruin) death to culture and also mortal death (ruin) too.

Next, the bible is clear, it teaches the humanity as a whole is an enemy of God, whom God is angry with, that God's wrath hangs over, and thus separated from God...

Psalms 7:11, God is a just judge, And God is angry with the wicked every day. NKJV

Note also - Rom 5:10, Col 1:21. James 4:4, Eph 2:3...

Those that are, have separated themselves from God and God's wrath justified. Yet, they are permitted to still live in mortal life, producing all manner of living death, separated from God. The reason for this, is that now, only in this mortal life one can return and be reconciled back to eternal life with God as opposed to eternal living death without him. We come back through the act of reconciliation which God himself did...

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. NKJV

Psalms 2:12, Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him. NKJV

As for others who choose to remain separated from God, loving bitterness, acts of sin, betrayal, mocking, immoral lifestyles, jealously, selfish ambitions, etc and etc will find themselves endlessly reaping what they have sown because that is what they desire above all else clearly proved by how they lived their mortal life course rejecting all of God's overtures at reconciliation however he revealed to each person omni-personally. His wrath is justified protecting his holy name and those whom reconciled.

So why is such retribution eternal? Simple, God's character gives life and for him to take it away into a non-being state,well. goes against his nature. God cannot deny himself, for to do so would make him imperfect in his ways. The important point is that God, did not abandon humanity, but continually calls to all the call of the gospel message of reconciliation through Jesus Christ. Accept that call, find life, and healing from all the enforced performance, abandonments, rejections, betrayals life heaps upon a person - becoming transformed out of darkness of ruin, into the new life Christ brings.

Remember this, those in hell are not victims, nor innocent, and each knows why they are their, and each knows they deserve it because it was justly shown to each their entire mortal life courses spent abusing, manipulating, and exploiting God's gracious love during this life and how, unchanged as mortal death seals, would continue to do the same if allowed in heaven, Isa 26:10, because such majesty of the Lord is viewed as something exploitable for ones own advantage.

Let such justice be God's and not a human sense of fairness as an excuse to keep running from the Lord demanding that he perform to human intellectual feel good tunes with its 'or else' hubris.
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B. W. wrote:

Let such justice be God's and not a human sense of fairness as an excuse to keep running from the Lord demanding that he perform to human intellectual feel good tunes with its 'or else' hubris.
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How you doing my brother Mr. B.W.., greetings to you from this "uneducated" man.

..

I am far from being able to articulate my thoughts and beliefs into written words., for I am a little bit better when speaking face to face and under God's given Spirit filled eloquence.

Thus, most times I have to resort to others in their words for what they have experienced, and so too I am of the same mind., and so I quote..

Mental Back-Filing

Experience, talking here! Under Calvinism, how can one maintain any semblance of a grace message--and at the same time--retain a belief in endless hell? The ONLY way to do that is to emphasize the grace and love passages of Scripture and to de-emphasize the judgment and "everlasting" fire passages. This is what I mean by mental back-filing. Many people have somehow learned to give mental assent to the doctrine of eternal punishment so that they "believe" in it--but only as a point of "orthodoxy." When I believed in eternal punishment, the only way I ever found any measure of peace was to mentally back-file the negatives of my belief system. At least I TRIED to do so, as much as was possible. Problem is, I don't have the kind of personality that easily performs that mental gymnastic. So I was not able to keep the data in my mental back-files from seeping through into my front-files for very long.

and..

So why should I want to go to heaven? Why be turned into a heartless religious zombie that worships blissfully on streets of gold while billions of people suffer never-ending horrors that defy the power of words to describe?

So a big part of me DID NOT WANT to be saved. That was simply because I felt no attraction to becoming one of Calvinism's zombiefied saints who would supposedly inherit "pie in the sky" while most of earth's families would eternally fry. (What!? Gen.12:3, Rom.4:13, Gal.3:8, Eph.3:14; 1:9-11, Ps.22:27-28) I was already corrupt and selfish enough as it was. It seemed unbearable to imagine myself becoming THAT hardened and callused. Yet that is exactly the kind of heartless zombies Jonathan Edwards and others have thundered that the saints are destined to become, is it not? No matter how foolish or wicked the (so-called) "non-elect" may have been, I shuddered to contemplate such a horror as being eternally hardened to the agonies of other human beings--some of my own loved ones included.

and so too..

I do believe God calls out an elect people. However, He doesn't elect them so they can be a silly and exclusive "Us Four and No More Going to Heaven Club." He does not call them out so they alone will be eternally blessed and all others will be trashed and burned forever. No, our Good Father has called out a holy nation, a royal priesthood people for a far higher purpose than that. He has called them to help fulfill the role of the firstborn kinsman redeemer son we read about in Gen. 27:28-29, 38, Duet. 21:17; 19:4-12, 25:5-10, Numbers 3, and all that is taught in the book of Ruth.

Hi Lonewolf,

First off, I would never consider you ‘uneducated’ and you should not think of yourself that way either... you are not uneducated and can and do express yourself well.

As for the other points you quoted in your post, these are standard objections that usually come from folks deeply involved in various Hyper Grace Movement, Universalism, and Emergent Church (EC) groups. They have more to do with an objection to Hyper Calvinism than eternal recompense. Hyper Grace Movement and Emergent Church folks fall into a hopeful universalist mindset and will tell you that they are hopeful that universalism is true and eventually will join that Universalist camp. Hyper Grace groups are an offshoot of the Emergent Church liberalism as they water from the wells of the EC.

Universalist fall into two camps, one is that all, including the devil, will be saved, and the other is that the really bad will be annihilated into non-being in a sort of semi-universalist mindset. They pose the same straw man arguments such as, Mental Back Filing, and how you stated by far the best I heard – why would anyone want to be a – heartless religious zombie that worships blissfully on streets of gold while billions of people suffer never-ending horrors that defy the power of words to describe?

Fact is this, when we stand before the Lord as a Christian, he will reveal profound things about himself, sin, life that will make such objections trite. In fact, we will be thankful that he remains true to himself in all things that he is and how he ives folks according to his or her deeds, for to deny that, all life ceases because God is not true to himself and thus not God. Just ponder that in a Selah sort of way.

The bible answers the heartless zombie objection in Revelation 21:4, 5 showing that to be absurd as well as an impossibility. Most of the objections to eternal recommence ‘is’ in reality an objection to Augustinian thought on predestination which was refined later by John Calvin. It would also be well to note that Reformed folks are not heartless zombies happy and gleeful concerning the domain of hell and those that choose to go there. Neither was Jesus either when speaking on hell.

I try to tell people that make such objections, these kind of objection are based solely on human emotionalism that seeks to dictate to God the terms of eternity that is acceptable to them, and if not, they cannot believe in God That is the general tenure of such emotionalism, and I hope it reveals something to those prone to make it concerning a subtle form of childlike hubris being exhibited. May folks grow out of it according to God's will.

Even Rev 22:15, Rev 21:27 mentions those that defile reside outside and have no place with God and that outside being defined in the Lake of Fire. Trust the Lord that it is best that those that profane and defile are not permitted in and are instead left in a place reaping what the sown because they love defiling more than all else. Basically God is giving them what they want, life without him. How could that be unjust? Yes, according to the scriptures life without God is a terrifying reality and in mortal life we are allowed to taste its fruit separated from God. but thanks be to God, he sent Jesus Christ into the world to redeem us who believe in him from a forever separation, amen.
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B. W. wrote:
...concerning a subtle form of childlike hubris being exhibited. May folks grow out of it according to God's will...
they love defiling more than all else. Basically God is giving them what they want, life without him. How could that be unjust? Yes, according to the scriptures life without God is a terrifying reality and in mortal life we are allowed to taste its fruit separated from God. but thanks be to God, he sent Jesus Christ into the world to redeem us who believe in him from a forever separation, amen

So the wicked go on with their enjoyable sinful lives? Because they are getting what they want?

They can't be tortured then, because that's not what they want ?

If they are tortured, then god could not be giving then what they want.

If they wanted separation from god, won't they be happy to get what they wanted?

The "lake of fire" has been put out and now it's a carnival?

Eternal hell, eternal sinners, and eternal sin, which can only be perpetuated by god himself.

Are you sure you believe all this?

I certainly hope not, and I (want to) believe you don't.

'Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.'

^ ^ ^

Reads to me like the the soul can be destroyed., if a soul could not be killed, why would there be cherubin placed at the entrance to the garden to keep man from eating from the tree of life?

...

Over the years I have heard people say, maybe this life we live is hell., we cry, we pain, we despair, we toil, on and on, most of our so called life is filled with burdens and sad to say, a lot of unhappiness., so then, could it be true, are we already dead, already in hades (hell) ?? ., since indeed, we were separated from God., expelled from the garden and kept from the tree of life which is God., so then, if we're already dead, and require salvation to be reborn into His Life, is this earthly sinful life the spiritual death, and are we not destined to return to the dust? not to be remembered any more if we reject the resurrection that Christ offers us?

So the wicked go on with their enjoyable sinful lives? Because they are getting what they want?

What B.W. was saying is that they want to exist without God and His ways, and so God lets them exist without Him.

They can't be tortured then, because that's not what they want ?
If they are tortured, then god could not be giving then what they want.
If they wanted separation from god, won't they be happy to get what they wanted?

From what I've gathered, the 'torture' is really their self-torment. What they 'want' is to abuse life for their own specific selfish means. After this mortal life, and if they are adamant about not being with God in this life, God will oblige them and they will live without Him. But they will not be able to abuse others anymore, as they will have no effect on other life in hell. Which will cause them great torment, because they cannot continue doing the deeds they love and desire: to corrupt other life. Instead they will be wailing and crying.

Lonewolf wrote:'Don't be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.'
Reads to me like the the soul can be destroyed., if a soul could not be killed, why would there be cherubim placed at the entrance to the garden to keep man from eating from the tree of life?

That thought about the garden crossed my mind recently, Genesis 3:22-24. The only way to have eternal life was to eat of that tree of life. Also Rev 22:14 "Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life..."

No fruit, no eternal life.

Mallz wrote,
From what I've gathered, the 'torture' is really their self-torment. What they 'want' is to abuse life for their own specific selfish means. After this mortal life, and if they are adamant about not being with God in this life, God will oblige them and they will live without Him. But they will not be able to abuse others anymore, as they will have no effect on other life in hell. Which will cause them great torment, because they cannot continue doing the deeds they love and desire: to corrupt other life. Instead they will be wailing and crying.

If God is correct in saying that "the wages of sin is death" and if we say that they never die, they can never get the wages and God is wrong?
Romans 6:23.

Mallz wrote:

So the wicked go on with their enjoyable sinful lives? Because they are getting what they want?

What B.W. was saying is that they want to exist without God and His ways, and so God lets them exist without Him.

They can't be tortured then, because that's not what they want ?
If they are tortured, then god could not be giving then what they want.
If they wanted separation from god, won't they be happy to get what they wanted?

From what I've gathered, the 'torture' is really their self-torment. What they 'want' is to abuse life for their own specific selfish means. After this mortal life, and if they are adamant about not being with God in this life, God will oblige them and they will live without Him. But they will not be able to abuse others anymore, as they will have no effect on other life in hell. Which will cause them great torment, because they cannot continue doing the deeds they love and desire: to corrupt other life. Instead they will be wailing and crying.

That is precisely what I was saying and Mallz is correct about torture consisting of self-torment...
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