More facts

[Jac3510]

"Firstborn" does not mean "created." In that culture, it was a legal concept. The "firstborn" was the one who had all rights and responsibilities in directing family affairs. That person was usually the first born son, although others could be named "the firstborn," if, for instance, the temporally first born son had disgraced the family. In other word "first" here is "first" in the sense of priority or importance, not in terms of temporal coming into existence. For an American analogy, Obama and his family are known as "the first family," and so Michelle is "the first lady, etc.

As such, Jesus as "firstborn" does not mean He was the first created thing. If that's what Paul had meant, that is what he would have said. What it means is exactly what it says: Jesus, as Firstborn, has all rights and responsibilities in directing the affairs of the world.

[1over137]

RickD,

Do you not read what you post?

You posted:

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John
6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Flesh
14 And the Word became flesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness [n]we have all received, and [o]grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

...

When you say esus is God the Father, you take all the glory away from the Father, and Give it to the son, our Lord Jesus.

Domenic, look at the verses in red. What do you see?

I see this: Christ = Word = God

[Domenic]

RickD,

Do you not read what you post?

You posted:

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John
6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Fleshlesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father
14 And the Word became f, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness [n]we have all received, and [o]grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

...

When you say esus is God the Father, you take all the glory away from the Father, and Give it to the son, our Lord Jesus.

Domenic, look at the verses in red. What do you see?

I see this: Christ = Word = God

We do not see the same thing, you, and me.
"The word was WITH God." Jesus is the word.
"The only begotten (of) God who in in the bosom of the Father." Begotten means FROM.
You still do not understand Col 1:15. The reason is between you and Father. What you believe in not my business. The scripture is clear to all God has not blinded. All who have taken the glory away from the Father, and given it to the Son, will stand before God for Judgment, and witnesses will be called to speak. Christians are witnesses for what they have see.
Take care what you teach others.

[RickD]

And the Word was God.

Plain as the nose on your face. Can't be any clearer.

[Domenic]

And the Word was God.

Plain as the nose on your face. Can't be any clearer.

The scriptures speak of two paths. Follow yours, I stay to mine. Jesus is my Lord. Father YHWH is my God.
God is a title, not a name. Satan is also known as God. He is the God (title) of this system of things. God the Father has a name...YHWH. Our Lord Gods son has a name...Jesus. You have a name. A name says who we are. If I wrote you a check for $1,000,000 and made it out to, "the man with the hat"...you would never get the check cashed...You need a name and something to prove you are that person...Jesus has the title of God, first born of all creation, Lord, the second Adam, Son of God..etc Those are all titles...
Again, take care, you give the glory of God YHWH to his son, Our Lord Jesus. And that is as clear as the nose on your face.

[RickD]

Jesus is Yahweh.http://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god

[Domenic]

Jesus is Yahweh.http://carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god

You took this from CRAM.
The word LORD is not a name, it is a title; 1Co 8:5 "There are many Gods, and many Lords." Even in England today there are Lords."
Do you remember reading of Lord Nelson, a Naval Hero of old England?
Lord is traditionally an appellation[1] for a person or deity who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler.[2][3] In only a few cases is "lord" a formal title in itself, most commonly that of Lord of the Manor (now largely historical) and certain other vestigial titles from the age of feudalism such as Lord of Mann. More generally, Lord is a generic term applied, for example, to people who hold a title of the peerage in the United Kingdom, or are entitled to courtesy titles, or to refer to a group or body of peers.

Yes Jesus is a Lord...he is not God the Father, who is also a Lord. Jesus is also a King. Matter of fact, Jesus is King of kings.

Lu 4:8 "It is YHWH your God you must worship." You are teaching people not to worship the creator, but Jesus, who YHWH created. Jesus the first born of all creation.
To give Gods glory to his son Jesus, will cause that person to fall into the hands of the living God, YHWH. Not a good position to be in.

[B. W.]

Scriptures do not lie

Jesus was created by the father;

Colossians 1:15
“He is the image of the invisible God, THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION; by means of him all other things were created in the Heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordship or governments or authorities. All (other) things have been created through him and for him.

Scriptures don't lie yet you stated this on another thread... why?

Not all things in the New Testament are inspired by God. The letters of Paul are just that, Letters. Yes he quoted scripture, but, God did not say to Paul, "Sit down and write what I tell you in your letters."

I'm sure if Paul, and those others who wrote letters that are in the New Testament knew they would be printed in a book, would have taken more care. Some day in the future people may read post in this forum which also have scriptures...I hope they don't think God told us to write these things. I know he didn't tell me...did he tell you?

I believe the Bible is the word of God the Father. But, when men put the book together, they left out some scrolls, and put in some letter. The bible does not replace the scrolls...the scrolls are the word of God.

I was born into a Catholic family 78 years ago. I remember what the catholic bible was like then...it is not the same today...there are books in it that were not here before?

Back Colossians 1:15. This verses form Paul whose letters, according to you, should not be in the bible does have a context as I have shown

Col 1:16-17, For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. NKJV

You must apply context to the scriptures, not lift one out of context. The context of Col 1:15 - the word translated firstborn should read - supreme owner = He is 'supreme owner' over all creation. Why, because Col 2:9, 10 states Jesus is the head (supreme) over all rule and authority... how much is all? Also that in Col :16-17 states that Jesus Created the heavens and earth.

Therefore, please read these verses Heb 1:1,2,3 -Isa 44:24, Isa 48:13, Jer 51:15 as these verse do not lie and Dominic please ask yourself if only God created created the heavens and earth - all creation, how can it be stated that Jesus created the heavens and earth - all creation?

Next, go to Col 2:9,10 and what does this verse say that does not lie?

For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. Col 2:9-10 NKJV

How can Jesus be the head (supreme owner) of all principality and power - did God create another God like himself sharing that particular Glory? How could he after stating this in Isa 43:10, "You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me." NKJV

Isa 41:4, "Who has performed and done it, Calling the generations from the beginning? 'I, the LORD, am the first; And with the last I am He.' "

Isa 44:6-8, "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God. 7 And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, Since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, Let them show these to them. 8 Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not told you from that time, and declared it? You are My witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock; I know not one." NKJV

Rev 1:17, 18, "And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, "Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."

When did God experience death? The scriptures do not lie

Col 1:15-18 actually boldly proclaims that Jesus is God... not that he was created.

The theme of this is in the contextual flow of the book of Colossians from chapter one on into chapter and clarified again in Col 2:9,10.

You cannot escape the logic and context, and continuity of scripture... Your privet interpretation of Col 1:15 is error...

Now error, then, at 78, you are close to the jump off into eternity and wouldn't you like to know the only one who can save you before you leap?

1 John 4:14 We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. NASB

Isa 43:11, I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior. NASB

Isa 45:21, Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. NASB

Hosea 13:4, Yet I am the LORD your God Ever since the land of Egypt, And you shall know no God but Me; For there is no savior besides Me. NASB

Take the time to read these verses John 10:28-30, Acts4:12, Titus 2:13, Titus 3:4,5,6; 2 Peter 3:18, 1 John 4:14, 1 John 5:20-21, Jude 1:25 and tell us what you read...
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P.S.

in regards to John 1:14 the word translated as only begotten is from the Greek compound word monogenḗs which simply means Unique, one of a kind... Jesus being the Logos come in human flesh as John 1:1 cites points to monogenes meaning unique one of a kind. Next the word translated Of is para in Greek (prep) primarily denoting near, nearby, expressing the notion of immediate vicinity or proximity which is differently modified according to the force of each case.

What the force of the Greek text is stating that Jesus is unique one of a kind proceeding from the location of God in himself. That is why Jesus came as monogenes... God in Human Flesh... because only God can save as there is no other savoir possible other than God Himself - scriptures do not lie...

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.

[Domenic]

B. W.
Follow any path you want. believe anything you want. No one else has to answer to God for what you teach but you.

[B. W.]

B. W.
Follow any path you want. believe anything you want. No one else has to answer to God for what you teach but you.

Please read my book and find out how I met him up front and personal or watch the video... You do not know what you are saying.

----

In regards to John 1:14 the word translated as only begotten is from the Greek compound word monogenḗs which simply means Unique, one of a kind... Jesus being the Logos come in human flesh as John 1:1 cites points to monogenes meaning unique one of a kind. Next the word translated Of is para in Greek (prep) primarily denoting near, nearby, expressing the notion of immediate vicinity or proximity which is differently modified according to the force of each case the word is used.

What the force of the Greek text is stating that Jesus is unique one of a kind proceeding from the location of God in himself. That is why Jesus came as monogenes... God in Human Flesh... because only God can save as there is no other savoir possible other than God Himself - scriptures do not lie...

1 John 4:1-3 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. NKJV

You are around 78 years old, so you mentioned, you are close to the jumping off point. This is no time for you to play games with the bible. I challenge you to at least read the verses cited you and consider what is being said because your pride is hiding the wound in your heart that refuses to let you surrender to the Real Jesus Christ.

What happened in life that made you so bitter, was it a death in the family? Being ignored, or abandoned?

Your pride cannot save you, nor your insolence. You will meet Jesus and remember my words as you arrive - You will then know He is God but by then it will be too late as your pride will be sealed by death and there is no way God will allow your insolent pride to corrupt heaven because you refuse the behold the majesty of the Lord. So - now is the time and day for salvation in this mortal life only. You have 365 chance as there are days in a year to escape God's eternal wrath by accepting Jesus As your Lord and Savior. I do take you at your word that you are at least 78 years old so by 78 years you have used up 28,470 chances already - don't blow the last one.

Do you even know the good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? How about discuss that for a change?
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[1over137]

RickD,

Do you not read what you post?

You posted:

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

The Witness John
6 There [c]came a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 [d]He came [e]as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him. 8 [f]He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.

9 There was the true Light [g]which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His [h]own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born, not of [j]blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

The Word Made Fleshlesh, and [k]dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father
14 And the Word became f, full of grace and truth. 15 John *testified about Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me [m]has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me.’” 16 For of His fullness [n]we have all received, and [o]grace upon grace. 17 For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth [p]were realized through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

...

When you say esus is God the Father, you take all the glory away from the Father, and Give it to the son, our Lord Jesus.

Domenic, look at the verses in red. What do you see?

I see this: Christ = Word = God

We do not see the same thing, you, and me.
"The word was WITH God." Jesus is the word.
"The only begotten (of) God who in in the bosom of the Father." Begotten means FROM.
You still do not understand Col 1:15. The reason is between you and Father. What you believe in not my business. The scripture is clear to all God has not blinded. All who have taken the glory away from the Father, and given it to the Son, will stand before God for Judgment, and witnesses will be called to speak. Christians are witnesses for what they have see.
Take care what you teach others.

I am so thankful to my God that he gave me peace and secured me and that such words do not make me angry or get me out of my peace.

Btw, why do you think we are taking the glory away from the Father? What are we taking away from the Father and giving to the Son? Aren't we giving the same glory to both? But there is not 'both'. They are one.

Kind of reminds me the wave-particle duality in quantum physics. Sometimes electron manifests like a particle (point) and sometimes like a wave. It is both. Guys, could one think of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as Father-Son-Holy Spirit triality? (Is there a word for trio - ity?)

Just contemplating.

[PaulSacramento]

It really isn't THAT complicated.
If Jesus is the Son of God, that makes Him God.
How can the son of anything NOT be what that thing is ?
Jesus was NOT created, he was begotten and what is begotten MUST HAVE the same nature as what begets it.
He was not begotten as David was for example ( that was a figurative begotten), He was truly OF GOD and as such, He is God.
The issue of confusion for some is the idea that GOD is a "name" or personal identifier of YHWH, it isn't. God is simply a term ( title if you prefer even) that classifies the Nature of ( in this case) the supreme creator being.

[Domenic]

You are correct, it really is not that complicated. Father says he blinds the eyes of the unbelievers. As to my being 78, and near the grave...I do not fear death. Those who have been blinded should.
Those of the nature that Jesus is God, also believe they will go to heaven, or a hell of fire. These are not the teaching of my Lord Jesus...it is you who should fear death, because you do not serve Father out of love, but for a reward...life.
It is not complicated at all.

[neo-x]

You are correct, it really is not that complicated. Father says he blinds the eyes of the unbelievers. As to my being 78, and near the grave...I do not fear death. Those who have been blinded should.
Those of the nature that Jesus is God, also believe they will go to heaven, or a hell of fire. These are not the teaching of my Lord Jesus...it is you who should fear death, because you do not serve Father out of love, but for a reward...life.
It is not complicated at all.

Why should I fear Death when Christ already died for me? You seem so lost in your own holiness you have no idea what you are talking about. You are probably a tired person, so set on your blind faith that you can just think you can know the heart of others and why they follow God. I feel sad for you.

[Domenic]

You are correct, it really is not that complicated. Father says he blinds the eyes of the unbelievers. As to my being 78, and near the grave...I do not fear death. Those who have been blinded should.
Those of the nature that Jesus is God, also believe they will go to heaven, or a hell of fire. These are not the teaching of my Lord Jesus...it is you who should fear death, because you do not serve Father out of love, but for a reward...life.
It is not complicated at all.

Why should I fear Death when Christ already died for me? You seem so lost in your own holiness you have no idea what you are talking about. You are probably a tired person, so set on your blind faith that you can just think you can know the heart of others and why they follow God. I feel sad for you.

Jesus said, "Only the Father knows our heart. We do not even know our own." It sounds like Father has given you a special power to read my heart...Have some more popcorn.