Evidence for God from Science

militarynewb wrote:Ah Outlaw, you have the same mentality as me lol, or as I used to. These people can't help you if you don't have a foundation. I just think about it this way, This Jesus fellow, had such a profound impact on mankind, that we all changed our calendars. Its 2014 A.D!!! lol If you think about it, something happened 2000 years ago that was so out of this world, that it changed it forever. Don't need the bible to tell you that. I used to tell myself, well once I'm dead i'm dead, I won't have to worry what religion was the real one, if any, because once I died, i'd either be suffering, reincarnated, or dead in the ground. That "what if" factor is what got me digging in the first place. I just look at the facts. In my head, there has to be a beginning to everything. Yet if this is the case, we shouldn't exist at all. But why doesn't my brain comprehend this? GOOD QUESTION. "In the beginning there was nothing, and then God said let there be light" We'll that fits in well with what we know as the Big Bang Theory which wasn't even around until a 100 years ago. Yet this book of stories told Humans that 1000s of years ago. None of the other religions seem to punish you for anything. Well crap, if i were around 2000 years ago and i was told this religion has a Hell option, I'd go look for another, yet for some reason this one stuck around. Why do these religions even exist in the first place? Well God has put the heart of eternity in all Men. Hence all these religions popping up for an afterlife scenario, so that we no longer mourn for the death of our loved ones and worry about our death. We have a saying on this earth. Take the easy left, or the hard right. Hardest religion to me seems to be the one with a death sentence on top of it. Now i will point out one thing from the Bible. It says that God wants us to use our reason. So my best advice to you, is use your own reason and knock out all the possibilities on your own. Jesus is God and God is Jesus. But its a trio. Jesus, the Father, and the Holy ghost. Just think of it this way, God sent his left leg down to earth. He had to use a piece of himself to save us from our sin. How do we know if this bible is true in the first place? Like I said, our whole civilization basis their calenders off this fairy tale man named Jesus. And if you were there 2000 years ago, and saw how society was, this Christian practice would have been nicked in the butt by the Romans if there wasn't something more to it than just a story. AMEN brother!

Firstly you need to realise that your religion isnt the only one that has survived so long and i agree something happened 2000 years ago but we will never know exactly what, just because large numbers of people think something is true doesn't make it true people believed the world was flat for a long time due to the description of it the bible, if god was writing through humans why is it he can't clearly communicate the world being a sphere?
You mean to tell me that because our calendar says a.d thats good enough for you? Do your realise we didn't always use this calendar The Gregorian Calendar, also known as the “Western Calendar” or “Christian Calendar”, is the most widely accepted calendar around the world today. Its predecessor, the Julian Calendar, was replaced because it did not correctly reflect the tropical year or solar year marked by Earth's revolution around the Sun.
Just because we don't know how we got here or how everything started it doesn't mean you just say god must of done it because it explains nothing, why not just say' i don't know' and be honest?
So you say there has to be a beginning to everything that exists and i assume you think god exists then god had to also has to have a beginning, if you say you can't believe that the universe came from nothing then how do you at the same time believe god came from nothing? "In the beginning there was nothing, and then God said let there be light" hey hey hold up a minute, where did god come from? if in the beginning there was NOTHING then who made god? Where was god before and while he was creating the universe? your right when your dead your dead theres nothing to be affraid of are you afraid of the year 1901? no because you didn't exist in 1901 just like your not going to exist in 3001. Whether you choose to believe that you will somehow still exist doesn't change the reality that you wont.
" He had to use a piece of himself to save us from our sin." says who? god himself you fail to understand that he didn't 'have to' he chose to and he could of chose another way but he chose to sacrifice part of himself to so he didn't have topunish us like he said he would, why does this deserve praise this is stupidity at it's finest. He sacrificed Jesus for nothing.
Also do you realise that since the beginning of recorded history there has been about 3000 gods that people have believed in, currently its estimated that there's around 4,200 religions, 1 of which is christianity, inside christianity it's split into roughly 40 major differences in belief throughout 40,000 christian denominations. It seems to me humans love to create gods and follow which ever religion they feel suits what they'd like to be true. What category do you narrow down into? What makes you think your interpretation and understanding of christianity is more correct than the other 39? Does god reveal special things to you that he doesn't to the others? Im sure they'd claim the same thing.

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote:The issue is that we KNOW there is a right and a wrong, we know this because we not only FEEL it, we KNOW it to be true ( genetic imprinting according to some).
Every culture, regardless of their belief in a God or not, KNEW/KNOWS that right and wrong exist ( though they may vary on WHAT IS right and wrong, they all agree that there IS right and wrong).

Where do you think you get your morals from? The Bible?

Are you saying that morals are inherent in the nature of man?

What if that inherent morality was a temporary gift from God, so that men might search and find the Source of mercy and love?

I don't think morality would suit the survival of the fittest contest that evolution puts forward, here mercy is self defeat. Don't you think?
If you want to survive - you out-grow, or kill the competitor. Morality is about self sacrifice - the opposite to self preservation.
.

Im simply asking where do YOU get YOUR morals from? Is the bible your moral compass?
Why is it everyone on this forum answers questions with questions. Im interested to know where people think they get their morals from, i never said anything about evolution

outlaw wrote: ...
If I made a rule that any of my kids caught taking a biscuit without asking the penalty would be death, then one of my kids takes a biscuit the next day so the family gather around wondering what's going to happen, then I tell them because I love my son and even though he broke my rule I've decided to kill myself instead, then all of my children can go on taking biscuits but will escape punishment because my death paid it.
Later on one of my kids would say wow dad is such a hero for not killing Coby and instead killing himself, but then my older more logical thinking son would say, hang on wasn't it DAD who made the rule in the first place? Dads an idiot he killed himself for nothing all he had to do was make the punishment for taking biscuits something else to begin with and he'd still be here to teach us why taking biscuits without asking is wrong, the way he left us now we can still go on taking biscuits (even though we know its wrong) and never be punished for it because dad paid our punishment. Do you see how stupid it is?

Are you telling me the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe couldn't come up with another way to forgive without killing himself to save us from him having to carry out the punishment on us in which HE decided in the first place?

The fact that you are asking these kind of questions is a sign that you are a deep thinker.

They puzzle me too. I can't give a coherent or complete answer, so just a few points may unlock some of the greatest mystery.

1. The law of God or the ten commandments are description of the boundaries of love or of God's personality.
2. They will never change because He does not change in character or mind.
3. The law shows the protection necessary for life eg, Thou shalt not kill.
4. A perfect Life cannot exist without these laws
5. Our existence is an example of these laws being broken, there is unfairness and dysfunction in almost anything.
6. Death is just a natural consequence of cutting off from the source of life
7. God does not want to kill, but He is by nature destructive to anything false, dysfunctional or dangerous.
8. Life that is given out, comes back to God as part of a cycle, if something is off it comes back to Him.
9. Dysfunction in the system, means death to the cause of it, if not, the pain of it comes back to God.
10. Life on earth exists by the life of God, the consequences of a dysfunctional life of sin is mostly absorbed by God
11. God has allowed limited suffering to give sinners freedom according to their own reckoning, we can do what we want.
12. In order for a permanent removal of death, either the sinner dies with it and from it, or God dies with it and from it.
13. God cannot die, but if He turns Himself into a man, then He can die with it and from it.
14. Since God bears the pain of death for every man, He can also die for every man, and take the consequence.
15. But He is not you and not me, so how does that work?
16. He makes a "new man" which is every person past, present and future rolled into one man, becomes that man, and dies.
17. But the "new man" is raised by the life of God, its sins died for, a new life.
18. Christ lived the perfect life as the new man, giving all a right to eternal life, based on that obedience.
19. By accepting this life as our substitute, the old man of sin can now die, and we can live a new life of obedience by love.
20. Are there two of every human being, one self and one in Christ? yes.
21. Are these two joined? No, only when we receive Christ by faith, we are made one. Not two individuals but one.
22. At the resurrection we, get both combined to make a new body, but the mind has already been transformed into one.

"When this mortal shall put on immortality" "Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus"

outlaw wrote: Im simply asking where do YOU get YOUR morals from? Is the bible your moral compass?
Why is it everyone on this forum answers questions with questions. Im interested to know where people think they get their morals from, i never said anything about evolution

Before I came into contact with the Bible, I assumed what was right and wrong by what I preferred to happen to me.
A sense of fairness you might say. I don't know where that came from, but its fairly logical I guess to think that way.
I have chosen the ten commandments as a guide for morality because every follower of Christ did in the Bible stories and I saw that they covered every aspect of behavior beautifully.

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote: Im simply asking where do YOU get YOUR morals from? Is the bible your moral compass?
Why is it everyone on this forum answers questions with questions. Im interested to know where people think they get their morals from, i never said anything about evolution

Before I came into contact with the Bible, I assumed what was right and wrong by what I preferred to happen to me.
A sense of fairness you might say. I don't know where that came from, but its fairly logical I guess to think that way.
I have chosen the ten commandments as a guide for morality because every follower of Christ did in the Bible stories and I saw that they covered every aspect of behavior beautifully.

So are you saying you get your sense of morality from both outside and inside the bible, or are you saying now that you've came in contact with the bible you get your morals from god?
Basically what im asking is, does god decide what's moral or do you?

outlaw wrote: So are you saying you get your sense of morality from both outside and inside the bible, or are you saying now that you've came in contact with the bible you get your morals from god?
Basically what im asking is, does god decide what's moral or do you?

Good question, I had my ideas of fairness which fell short. I had lots of ideas of what was fair for me, but little mercy and no patience.
I came to face the non retaliatory nature of Christ, which at first disgusted me, but in the end showed that He had far more strength and fortitude of character. So after that I chose to study His law and requirements.
I fell short of the requirements as well, so I accepted His commitment to the human race as my only hope.

But letting God decide what is moral for me, was not enough, it had to be my idea and decision too, otherwise it is never part of me. Hebrews 10 says that God will write His law on their hearts, it has to become part of me in heart. Only Love can do that, and there is no reason God will not do it for anyone who has this hope.

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote: ...
If I made a rule that any of my kids caught taking a biscuit without asking the penalty would be death, then one of my kids takes a biscuit the next day so the family gather around wondering what's going to happen, then I tell them because I love my son and even though he broke my rule I've decided to kill myself instead, then all of my children can go on taking biscuits but will escape punishment because my death paid it.
Later on one of my kids would say wow dad is such a hero for not killing Coby and instead killing himself, but then my older more logical thinking son would say, hang on wasn't it DAD who made the rule in the first place? Dads an idiot he killed himself for nothing all he had to do was make the punishment for taking biscuits something else to begin with and he'd still be here to teach us why taking biscuits without asking is wrong, the way he left us now we can still go on taking biscuits (even though we know its wrong) and never be punished for it because dad paid our punishment. Do you see how stupid it is?

Are you telling me the all knowing, all powerful creator of the universe couldn't come up with another way to forgive without killing himself to save us from him having to carry out the punishment on us in which HE decided in the first place?

The fact that you are asking these kind of questions is a sign that you are a deep thinker.

They puzzle me too. I can't give a coherent or complete answer, so just a few points may unlock some of the greatest mystery.

1. The law of God or the ten commandments are description of the boundaries of love or of God's personality.
2. They will never change because He does not change in character or mind.
3. The law shows the protection necessary for life eg, Thou shalt not kill.
4. A perfect Life cannot exist without these laws
5. Our existence is an example of these laws being broken, there is unfairness and dysfunction in almost anything.
6. Death is just a natural consequence of cutting off from the source of life
7. God does not want to kill, but He is by nature destructive to anything false, dysfunctional or dangerous.
8. Life that is given out, comes back to God as part of a cycle, if something is off it comes back to Him.
9. Dysfunction in the system, means death to the cause of it, if not, the pain of it comes back to God.
10. Life on earth exists by the life of God, the consequences of a dysfunctional life of sin is mostly absorbed by God
11. God has allowed limited suffering to give sinners freedom according to their own reckoning, we can do what we want.
12. In order for a permanent removal of death, either the sinner dies with it and from it, or God dies with it and from it.
13. God cannot die, but if He turns Himself into a man, then He can die with it and from it.
14. Since God bears the pain of death for every man, He can also die for every man, and take the consequence.
15. But He is not you and not me, so how does that work?
16. He makes a "new man" which is every person past, present and future rolled into one man, becomes that man, and dies.
17. But the "new man" is raised by the life of God, its sins died for, a new life.
18. Christ lived the perfect life as the new man, giving all a right to eternal life, based on that obedience.
19. By accepting this life as our substitute, the old man of sin can now die, and we can live a new life of obedience by love.
20. Are there two of every human being, one self and one in Christ? yes.
21. Are these two joined? No, only when we receive Christ by faith, we are made one. Not two individuals but one.
22. At the resurrection we, get both combined to make a new body, but the mind has already been transformed into one.

"When this mortal shall put on immortality" "Let this mind be in you, which was in Christ Jesus"

No matter how you say it, if god created the game the rules and the players and if he had the opportunity to create the game the rules and the players anyway he liked it means he's ultimately responsible for it all, I don't see the sense in worshiping it for allowing us to sin then forgiving us for it via self mutilation, if we sin it's only because he made us capable of it, playing the free will card doesn't work because if the reason why he allows us free will is because he didn't want us to just obey him like robots and if he really wanted to get as many of his children to live with him forever but realised giving us free will would mean that probably wasn't going to happen, why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?
Or if the reason why he has to commit a sacrifice is because sin can't enter heaven, and he loves us and wants us the spend eternity with him, then why not just create us in heaven and spare us from all this suffering and sin and sacrifice rubbish?

Is there free will in heaven?
Or are we robots there?
If there is free will what's to stop us sinning there too?
If god can create such a place but then chooses to stick us here to jump through hoops to get there, then I'm sorry but that's not a god I consider to be good or loving, its a god that would be responsible for every bit of pain and suffering ever felt and ever to be felt.

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote: So are you saying you get your sense of morality from both outside and inside the bible, or are you saying now that you've came in contact with the bible you get your morals from god?
Basically what im asking is, does god decide what's moral or do you?

Good question, I had my ideas of fairness which fell short. I had lots of ideas of what was fair for me, but little mercy and no patience.
I came to face the non retaliatory nature of Christ, which at first disgusted me, but in the end showed that He had far more strength and fortitude of character. So after that I chose to study His law and requirements.
I fell short of the requirements as well, so I accepted His commitment to the human race as my only hope.

But letting God decide what is moral for me, was not enough, it had to be my idea and decision too, otherwise it is never part of me. Hebrews 10 says that God will write His law on their hearts, it has to become part of me in heart. Only Love can do that, and there is no reason God will not do it for anyone who has this hope.

Ok so could you decide for yourself what's right or wrong without the Bible? I mean do you actually need it to decide right from wrong good from bad? Because it seems as though your saying yeah i use the bible as a guide but ultimately I make the decision, if I think its wrong I don't care what the bible says, I mean is everything that god says is good, good? Do you ever disagree with god on what is good or bad? if so who wins?

outlaw wrote: Ok so could you decide for yourself what's right or wrong without the Bible? I mean do you actually need it to decide right from wrong good from bad? Because it seems as though your saying yeah i use the bible as a guide but ultimately I make the decision, if I think its wrong I don't care what the bible says, I mean is everything that god says is good, good? Do you ever disagree with god on what is good or bad? if so who wins?

Yes I could decide what is moral without the Bible, because morality isn't complex - it basically says don't be a cloaca.

There are only as many laws as your fingers. So did God give every human being this sense of morality? I think yes.

Do I ever disagree with God? No, but I don't always wish He was right.

Starhunter wrote:

outlaw wrote: Ok so could you decide for yourself what's right or wrong without the Bible? I mean do you actually need it to decide right from wrong good from bad? Because it seems as though your saying yeah i use the bible as a guide but ultimately I make the decision, if I think its wrong I don't care what the bible says, I mean is everything that god says is good, good? Do you ever disagree with god on what is good or bad? if so who wins?

Yes I could decide what is moral without the Bible, because morality isn't complex - it basically says don't be a cloaca.

There are only as many laws as your fingers. So did God give every human being this sense of morality? I think yes.

Do I ever disagree with God? No, but I don't always wish He was right.

So if you can decide for yourself and in fact do, then what do you need the bible for?

If you never disagree with god, which would mean that if god said something was good then it must be good. If Abraham would of went ahead and killed his son then you would have to agree that god telling him to do it was good?

Then who decides gods goodness as good?

You don't need a Bible, or the law, or the gospel, because the Spirit of God convicts all, and if the convictions are followed then they will bring you to the Bible, the law and the Gospel, which testify of Christ your redeemer.
You can eat a meal without a table or chair, or even a plate, but when soup is served you better have at least a bowl.

Who decides what is good or God's will? Say Abram's situation? Abram listened to God, knew His voice, and Abram could not understand why God would ask him to commit a heathen sacrifice. But Abram was at a point in his life when he wanted to know God personally, and God shared with Abram what He feels about having to sacrifice His own Son, by giving Abram a taste of the experience. When you share your deepest concern with someone, you are giving your heart.

Immorality is defined as disobedience to God. To disobey the voice of reason and conscience is to disobey God as well, regardless of other factors. God is not unfair with His convictions and or timing of them, but very tender and apt, so as to create the greatest potential for love to develop.

Outlaw, you are an avalanche.

Question by you which interested me the most is this one

, why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?

The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of heaven. There we will not disobey and we will do it freely.

Bible is kind of a story of humans. From their creation, through their separation from God, to their final reconciliation with God. So, why he allowed that we move away from him? Well, I do not have all the answers, but it is like, he let us learn about him. Free will is related to ability to oppose Him. Sin is opposing God. He did not create robots. He did not create something which would not be able to have a relationship with him. And this relationship is not a cheated one. In this one we indeed are capable of disobeying God. People suffer because they are far away from their original state. We suffer because we are not with God. Like a plant which distanced from the source of water. We distanced from the source of our happiness.

In heaven, having learned what a wreck we are without him, we will be infinitely grateful and we will not have a desire to disobey anymore.

outlaw wrote:...God can't tollerate us sinning, it makes him mad right? So god makes a rule that death is the punishment for it right? But god loves us so god sacrifices jesus to pay the price so he doesnt have to punish us for sinning right? But Jesus is god right? So god sacrificed himself to himself so he didn't have to follow through with his own original rule and punish us right?

If any part of this is wrong can you add in the correct bit.

If that was true then no human being would have survived the great flood. You show a complete lack of understanding of what the cross means. You base it upon Penal Substitutionary Theory which is not the whole deal. Jesus paid the price to you and I so we can stop betraying, slandering, rejecting, mocking, putting folks on trial, crucify them, beat them, plan their demise, etc and etc.

I do not think Melanie will mind using her in this illustration: She mentioned how a neighbor has ought against her, really despises her. Melanie did everything known to do to reach out to her, make amends, ad bring reconciliation but the person still seeks her character assassination out of pure spite.

Now for illustration sake, say a flood came and that person is swept down the road by it and climbs helplessly out of the car. Melanie drives by and see's others standing along shore doing nothing. She stops her car, gets out, and wades and swims out to the car and rescues her enemy. As she returns to shore, she lifts up this person, this woman, to the waiting arms of those on shore who provide aid to the nearly drowned woman. As she is drawn out of the water, their eyes meet and she see's Melanie, hit by a mass of floating flood debris and swept to her death. What impact would their be on Melinie's unjust enemy?

Why would anyone save their enemy and give their life in the process? Would the woman say, "wow, finally Mel's got her's so good riddance!" or would she say, "wow, I was getting ready to die and Melanie came and rescued me, giving her life in exchange for mine - why - I was so mean to her - why?" John 3:16...

Right then and there, a choice was thrust upon that woman - will she remain an ungrateful slug or realize she was wrong about Melanie and change her ways? If someone did that for you - rescued you in like manner, what impact would it have on you?

You see, Jesus came to rescue us from our ungrateful hating unloving, selfish ways... What manner of love would die for ones enemies and then provide the means to change them out of darkness into being adopted family?

Would you outlaw? From your post, in is obvious, that you consider someone dying while rescuing you as unjust and too bad for them...

The message of the Cross and Resurrection is of reconciliation not about the just demand of legalese being fulfilled...

Col 1:22 , 2 Co 5:18, Rom 5:10 , 2 Co 5:20

Then you write this comment:

outlaw wrote:...why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?

Well first off, you would be the first one complaining that this is a violation of human rights and promoting slavery. Wouldn't you?

So what is the answer then:

To do so unjustly would be unjust. So God justly permitted free moral agency for without doing so, he would be unjust. God is not unjust. However, justly he came to rescue us and those pulled to God's shore are changed, justly, so they will freely learn to stop disobeying him while on the shoreline. After a time of learning, they make it God's home where they will never disobey again for they have learned freely how just God really is by his sealing them so. In that there is no coercion on God's part in any manner, shape, or form by use of deception of fooling one into thinking they freely choose when they had not.

Outlaw, please get off the anti Calvinistic trip you are on...
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1over137 wrote:Outlaw, you are an avalanche.

Question by you which interested me the most is this one

, why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?

The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of heaven. There we will not disobey and we will do it freely.

Bible is kind of a story of humans. From their creation, through their separation from God, to their final reconciliation with God. So, why he allowed that we move away from him? Well, I do not have all the answers, but it is like, he let us learn about him. Free will is related to ability to oppose Him. Sin is opposing God. He did not create robots. He did not create something which would not be able to have a relationship with him. And this relationship is not a cheated one. In this one we indeed are capable of disobeying God. People suffer because they are far away from their original state. We suffer because we are not with God. Like a plant which distanced from the source of water. We distanced from the source of our happiness.

In heaven, having learned what a wreck we are without him, we will be infinitely grateful and we will not have a desire to disobey anymore.

Saying that we need to go through this life in order to become grateful so we don't feel the need to disobey anymore is my whole point.

If humans are capable of having free will but at the same time not feeeling the desire to disobey then why not create us like that to begin with?

Where did that desire to disobey come from if he apparently made us perfect?

Why create us here able to feel pain and suffer just so he can watch as we play his faith game, while the whole time he has a place free of pain and suffering where we still are free but will no longer use the freedom to disobey do or harm?

Does he allow children to suffer and starve on earth just to teach us some sort of lesson so one day we'll appreciate him or because he doesn't want to violate our free will? Because id much rather be a happy robot programmed with the perception i was choosing freely and never be able to suffer or feel pain wouldn't you?

If god says only people with free will can be truely happy, why can't he just as easily say only robots can truely be happy? he makes the rules right? that way we'd never disobey and wouldn't need saving from anything, it would require no human sacrifice to pay and we'd all end up in heaven just where he wants us.

But when you think about it theres no way in the world god would be silly enough to create us without the ability to disobey him, because then it would make god pretty much obsolete wouldn't it? i mean there would be no need to worship a god for saving us when we've got nothing to be saved from right?

B. W. wrote:

outlaw wrote:...God can't tollerate us sinning, it makes him mad right? So god makes a rule that death is the punishment for it right? But god loves us so god sacrifices jesus to pay the price so he doesnt have to punish us for sinning right? But Jesus is god right? So god sacrificed himself to himself so he didn't have to follow through with his own original rule and punish us right?

If any part of this is wrong can you add in the correct bit.

If that was true then no human being would have survived the great flood. You show a complete lack of understanding of what the cross means. You base it upon Penal Substitutionary Theory which is not the whole deal. Jesus paid the price to you and I so we can stop betraying, slandering, rejecting, mocking, putting folks on trial, crucify them, beat them, plan their demise, etc and etc.

I do not think Melanie will mind using her in this illustration: She mentioned how a neighbor has ought against her, really despises her. Melanie did everything known to do to reach out to her, make amends, ad bring reconciliation but the person still seeks her character assassination out of pure spite.

Now for illustration sake, say a flood came and that person is swept down the road by it and climbs helplessly out of the car. Melanie drives by and see's others standing along shore doing nothing. She stops her car, gets out, and wades and swims out to the car and rescues her enemy. As she returns to shore, she lifts up this person, this woman, to the waiting arms of those on shore who provide aid to the nearly drowned woman. As she is drawn out of the water, their eyes meet and she see's Melanie, hit by a mass of floating flood debris and swept to her death. What impact would their be on Melinie's unjust enemy?

Why would anyone save their enemy and give their life in the process? Would the woman say, "wow, finally Mel's got her's so good riddance!" or would she say, "wow, I was getting ready to die and Melanie came and rescued me, giving her life in exchange for mine - why - I was so mean to her - why?" John 3:16...

Right then and there, a choice was thrust upon that woman - will she remain an ungrateful slug or realize she was wrong about Melanie and change her ways? If someone did that for you - rescued you in like manner, what impact would it have on you?

You see, Jesus came to rescue us from our ungrateful hating unloving, selfish ways... What manner of love would die for ones enemies and then provide the means to change them out of darkness into being adopted family?

Would you outlaw? From your post, in is obvious, that you consider someone dying while rescuing you as unjust and too bad for them...

The message of the Cross and Resurrection is of reconciliation not about the just demand of legalese being fulfilled...

Col 1:22 , 2 Co 5:18, Rom 5:10 , 2 Co 5:20

Then you write this comment:

outlaw wrote:...why couldn't god have made us incapable of disobeying him but make us feel like we were choosing freely?

Well first off, you would be the first one complaining that this is a violation of human rights and promoting slavery. Wouldn't you?

So what is the answer then:

To do so unjustly would be unjust. So God justly permitted free moral agency for without doing so, he would be unjust. God is not unjust. However, justly he came to rescue us and those pulled to God's shore are changed, justly, so they will freely learn to stop disobeying him while on the shoreline. After a time of learning, they make it God's home where they will never disobey again for they have learned freely how just God really is by his sealing them so. In that there is no coercion on God's part in any manner, shape, or form by use of deception of fooling one into thinking they freely choose when they had not.

Outlaw, please get off the anti Calvinistic trip you are on...
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Well if you can suspend disbelief that much to actually believe a glodal flood occured than you'll quite frankly believe anything, did you know i have a 60ft purple and pink polka dot dragon that lives in my garage an it shoots lightning bolts out of its eyes?

Did jesus death actually stop anybody from betraying slandering etc? no we still do, all it apparently did was magically prevent god from having to punish us for it while we still go on doing those things so whats the point of it?

On to Melanies flood analogy are you saying humans are gods enemy?

Right then and there, a choice was thrust upon that woman - will she remain an ungrateful slug or realize she was wrong about Melanie and change her ways?

What if she was right about Melanie, after all melanie is human, she betrays she's ungrateful, she's selfish she's is a sinner right?

You see, Jesus came to rescue us from our ungrateful hating unloving, selfish ways...

Are you saying theres no other way to become less selfish or more loving or grateful? the only way possible to learn these things is through accepting that jesus was sacrificed? Because i can prove otherwise very very easily some of the most loving caring unselfish people i know and also historical figres aren't christians, or are you so self righteous you believe the only reason they are is because YOUR version of god allowed them to be throught jesus?

Well first off, you would be the first one complaining that this is a violation of human rights and promoting slavery. Wouldn't you?

No i wouldn't i'd be a happy robot with the perception i was freely choosing, i'd have nothing to complain about. I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between me actually making choices and me thinking id made the choice, if i was programmed to think that every choice that was made for me felt like id made it myself.

So God justly permitted free moral agency for without doing so, he would be unjust. God is not unjust.

I get told all the time "who are you to judge god?" So who are you to judge god as just? On what basis do you decide gods goodness as good?


Its not just to kill man woman and child for sinning when he could of created us incapable of sin or without the desire to sin to begin with?
If he creates everything, then he aslo created the desire eve felt to disobey him. Isaiah 45:7