Evidence for God from Science

I guess the main issue is that they believe that Father, Son and HS are separate Gods and not One God that is 3 persons.

Bingo! Because if you believe that, you're automatically a polytheist! Which means that you don't believe in the God of history, of the Bible - which the Apostle states ancient man's response to was to make up all manner of gods with attributes they themselves chose. Often, one god didn't cut it - they needed more attributes (accommodations to themselves and their selfish desires) - thus: MORE gods.

PaulSacramento wrote:I guess the main issue is that they believe that Father, Son and HS are separate Gods and not One God that is 3 persons.

Either they are three separate entities or they are one right?

Blessed, God is not like us. You cannot apply a man's construct to God. God is ONE God, in three Persons - each equally God - albeit with differing but complementary roles, all in perfect sync and harmony within the One God!

Blessed, if you are serious about this issue, please read through the following excellent links addressing it.

Contemplate some outtakes from Gotquestions.org: https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

The Trinity consists of three Persons (Genesis 1:1, 26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8, 48:16, 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17, 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14). In Genesis 1:1, the Hebrew plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

Each member of the Trinity is God. The Father is God (John 6:27; Romans 1:7; 1 Peter 1:2). The Son is God (John 1:1, 14; Romans 9:5; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8; 1 John 5:20). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4; 1 Corinthians 3:16).



And here is a multi-part series from John Ankerberg addressing the issue of God's Trinity:

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-1/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-2/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-3/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-4/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-5/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-6/

https://www.jashow.org/articles/general ... ty-part-7/

Blessed wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:I guess the main issue is that they believe that Father, Son and HS are separate Gods and not One God that is 3 persons.

Either they are three separate entities or they are one right?

It is quite natural and reasonable that words don't do justice in describing God, for obvious reasons.

We tend to "humanize" everything so when we thing 3 persons we think 3 different individuals like 3 different human beings, right?
God is NOT like that, He is not A being, he IS being.
The 3 persons means that each has an individual conscience that are perfectly in union as ONE.
God is THREE just as He is ONE.
Not three different Gods or three different "manifestations' of God.
ONE God with 3 different consciences in perfect union as ONE.

Blessed wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Blessed wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Blessed wrote:I am not qualified to comment but lean towards LDS position on this specific question.

So you disagree with what Paul wrote and that the Gospel of John says?

No.

But what Paul and John wrote is NOT what the LDS believe or preach.

They preach the trinity is three separate parts. Father, son, and Holy Ghost. I am unable to determine if these three parts are one God. However, throughout the Bible they are referred to in separate context. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Blessed, I recommend taking some time to go through InspiringPhilosopy's video playlist on the Trinity at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... wbbQNCS6Qf - some real helpful thoughts there.

Kurieuo wrote:
Blessed, I recommend taking some time to go through InspiringPhilosopy's video playlist on the Trinity at: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... wbbQNCS6Qf - some real helpful thoughts there.

Thank you.

Blessed wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Blessed wrote:

PaulSacramento wrote:

Blessed wrote:I am not qualified to comment but lean towards LDS position on this specific question.

So you disagree with what Paul wrote and that the Gospel of John says?

No.

But what Paul and John wrote is NOT what the LDS believe or preach.

They preach the trinity is three separate parts. Father, son, and Holy Ghost. I am unable to determine if these three parts are one God. However, throughout the Bible they are referred to in separate context. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

I am not an acclimated to Paul's writings or the book of John. I spend 90% of my time reading the Old Testament. I was raised a Christian. I was very lucky.

However, I get a feeling of concern when my relatives and other people say "Jesus IS God". There is only one God, who gave his son up to sacrifice on this earth as atonement for our sins. I also am concerned that by saying "Jesus IS God" I am forgetting about God, and breaking Gods law on idolatry, as provided to Moses and Noah (7 commandments of Noah), by forgetting God.

This is a difficult philosophical hang up which I hope to eventually resolve; yet am somehow comfortable with. I pray directly to God in Christ's name, perhaps as a "permission" of sorts.

I understand if this doesn't make much sense.

I’m not going to tell you what to believe because that’s your journey and spiritual path, I don’t think it has any bearing on your faith or salvation but I get that as we grow in faith philosophical questions arise.
My best advice is read the New Testament, don’t get bogged down in terminology that attempts to translate what is clear in Scripture. The Pharisees got very concerned about terminology and a perceived idea of faith but forgot the basic principle of love, compassion and living faith in action.
Personally I’m not a tritarian and I’m a real believer. I’m not a jehovah witness or have any desire to be. I was raised conservatively Christian.
To make it very clear, I wish you all the very best and I don’t think any differing belief on the matter seperates Gods own. It’s okay to have your own opinion and it’s equally okay to have listened and grown in depth of understanding from this forum but it’s not an echo chamber and there are differing perspectives.
I’m not going to preach but each to their own path and I wish you every blessing; no pun intended lol.

To come back to this thread, I've thought about this question for many years, in particular whether JWs, Mormons and the like may be saved. At the end of the day, I believe we have to just say only God knows the heart and whether their faith in Christ counts as true belief. Certainly, I think there is more hope for such, than say an Atheist who clearly denies God and even ridocules Christ or His teachings.

That said, anyone who doesn't believe Christ is God, from a logical and theological point of view I must say such don't truly understand salvation. Rather, to such salvation must be like something magical -- you just believe in Christ, a mere man, and you are saved. But, how? Christ, a mere man can forgive sins like he is the one most grievously offended. Again, how or why? Christ, a mere creature, man, was sent to die in our place -- WOW, what an absolutely awesome God who sends some innocent created person to die in our spot!?! No. Only, and only unless Christ is God come in human form, does Christian salvation make logical sense.

Yet then, humans are far from sensible creatures. We often accept things without any logic whatsoever, without any reasoning, coherency, rational consistency and the like. Our hearts might be longing, and yet our rationality be full of contradiction. I'm certainly more confident where the heart also align with what is rationally correct on fundamental beliefs, but where it doesn't, then I pray one side is enough and leave such in God's hands who knows us better than even ourselves.

If one asserts Jesus to be anything other than Who He actually is (God!), that is, they define him per a sibling of Satan, just another prophet like Moses, that He's not God - then these people don't believe in the real Jesus. Period! See, I think it is possible that some begin to believe in the Son as being from God the Father, but that at some point, they will realize Jesus is also God - and I believe all saved persons will have this belief before they die. Because people in cults go BEYOND just believing Jesus is of the Father - as they also have typically bought into their cult's teachings' false constructs of who Jesus is - or they deny Him entirely - so, what they are doing is denying God's Words across Scripture.

Let's use another similar test: Would any Scripturally following Christian all for God being Allah? Or the "one within/the creation," Krishna, Brahman, etc. (pantheism)? Of course not - these are all false constructs and theologies of whom the cults claim to be God. Now, they can CALL their favorite deities "god" all they want to. But that means they do not believe in Yahweh of the Bible. Romans makes it clear that people did not like or want anything to do with the REAL God, and so they went off and began various pagan religions - which all continue in some form to this day. So, as Jesus is ALSO fully God, how does claiming and believing Him to be anything other (per their cultist beliefs) than what He is - how is that any different than asserting Allah is God? Because, as typical with Mormons, Jehovah witnesses, and all manner of cults, they often not only deny Who Jesus actually is, and go beyond that to assert He is something else. Or not even a prophet (as many secularist do). So, whether you identify God falsely with another pagan god, or you believe in an unScriptural/non-God Jesus - don't you actually end up in the same place?

Also, there is nowhere in Scripture, post Jesus' ascension, where anyone was ever saved without first hearing the Gospel message. The Apostle Paul even doubles down, rhetorically asking how that is possible?

Context: Paul has just explained how one is saved:

Romans 10: "9 because, IF you confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now, what does it mean to confess Jesus as "Lord" - what does that word mean, per Paul?

Then Paul immediately asked his rhetorical questions:

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in Him of Whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

And, as I've often said, remoteness of place absent of the Gospel is neither a hindrance to God, nor to one who is aware God exists (ALL people know this basic thing per Romans 1), as all such persons can call upon God if they desire to know Him or anything about Him. And whether God sends a missionary, or they receive the Gospel in some miraculous manner - even through dreams or visions - God can and WILL reach ANYONE wanting to know Him, with the Gospel.

PaulS could possibly weigh in more here, but JWs nonetheless believe on Jesus, that He is Lord. So lets stick with JWs and not something further off the path such as Hinduism, a Krishna or what-have-you -- where clearly one's faith cannot possibly be in the person of Christ.

Yes, JWs theologic is still out the window, but it may not be completely. We might take it a step further, and say unless you have a simple view of God (i.e., Divine Simplicity), then what you are calling "God" isn't really GOD but rather a contingent being with potentiality. As Jac would say, "God is Pure Act". Unless you believe that, then what you call God just isn't. How far do we go with rationality? And then, the further we go, the less simple belief becomes, such that no child would be able to have faith and perhaps even many intelligent Christian theologians could not truly believe. At some point we must all grapple and rest with some mystery to God, who and what God is. Some might rest sooner than others, but we all do rest at some point. None of us know 100% here -- "For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." (1 Cor 13:12)

Given Christ exists and is living, He knows who He is, such that we merely know of Him and trust. We don't need to know absolutely everything about Christ in order to accept Him as a person or our Lord; we can merely recognise such implicitly without having all details. Consider a child who hears about Christ coming to die for us, through whom we receive God's forgiveness and they fully believe and love Jesus. I'm telling you now, many children do not understand if/how Jesus is God, might have distorted theological views, until such a time perhaps that they think more deeply on such and start exploring the theology behind Christ, perhaps explore the hypostasis union and the like. Yet, I still believe such a child to be truly Christian and saved. With such, there are a few necessities, and that is knowing of this person Christ and placing one's hope in Him to be forgiven and reconciled with God. Really, I think, Christ revealing Himself in a personal, even spiritual, way ought to follow, as the Holy Spirit guides and leads us in life in the way we should go.

So with JWs, I still see that they have some hope, which is more than an Atheist, more than a Hinda, more than believing in Krishna, more than Muslims. For, I still see they do very much believe in the person of Christ and hope in Him for salvation, even if their Christology is quite off as to understanding His nature. I'm not saying here I'm certain such are saved, I'm really only certain of myself, but I think once the mystery is removed in the afterlife that if they were to call out to Jesus their call is more likely to be met by Christ (who knows who He is) than not.

K: Given Christ exists and is living, He knows who He is, such that we merely know of Him and trust. We don't need to know absolutely everything about Christ in order to accept Him as a person or our Lord; we can merely recognize such implicitly without having all details.

No, we don't need to know EVERYTHING about God to acknowledge Him as our LORD. But JWs go WAY beyond some knowledge deficit, to declaring Jesus - Who is fully God - to NOT be God. They're denying Who and What Jesus/God is. It's really not much different than asserting Yahweh to be Allah, or Krishna, Brahma, etc. So, are all Jews saved merely because they believe in the Father? Why does Scripture say the only way to the Father is through the Son? I say that ANYONE who believes in a false Jesus - and believes the teachings of whatever their tradition over Scripture, which ALSO asserts Jesus is not God - cannot be saved. It's one thing to believe in the Son and not YET realize He is also God - but these cult traditions go further and deny Jesus' Deity. That's just belief in a false God - and not the one that truly exists. Again, I believe all Christians will, at some point, and before death, realize that Jesus is also God.

What does the term "Lord" - in reference to Jesus - really mean? https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-is-Lord.html

I agree that if somebody denies Jesus is God they are denying who Jesus is.Now,if you're denying who Jesus is how can you say you're truly putting your faith in him?And I think it is offensive to Jesus eventhough he might over look it out of his grace and mercy.But it is like somebody denying who you are,would'nt it offend you? And it really does make you wonder if the people in churches like this that deny who Jesus is can even be saved.I don't like to play God when it comes to judging but if you're teaching about Jesus denying who he truly is then I'm not sure a person can be saved. This is why cults are so dangerous because the only way to heaven is Jesus and if you're denying who he is you're believing in some other god but calling it Jesus.And worst of all when you show them by scripture how Jesus is God and where in the bible it says it like Acts 20:28 they still refuse to change their mind and doctrine and still believe in some other being calling it Jesus.I personally do not believe the people in these cults can truly be saved,but I'm not God. But this kind of false teaching angers me alot more than different creation interpretations,bible prophecy interpretations,etc because this has to do with the gospel.

For those on this forum. Please pick the correct answer if you will:

A) Jesus IS God

B) Jesus is the son of God, Lord and Savior of Mankind, who shed his blood "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only SON, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life."



For me, "B" seems to be the correct answer. Jesus was the Son of God and Messiah. Throughout the Bible the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned seperately. Three seperate entities. One Trinity. I see Bible verses listed as sources on this website telling me that Jesus IS God. No and's if's or but's. But these verses appear to be a matter of interpretation. That being said please keep in mind I'm not as well versed as others here. I readily admit this.

For me personally it comes down to this: my greatest fear is that by saying "Jesus IS God" I am commiting idolatry by glorifying and worshiping the Son over the Father. One life. One choice. Choose wrong. Go to hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. So I have a tendancy to play it ultra safe and conservative out of fear. Jesus is Gods son. And (for me) it's not a matter of polytheism as someone here suggested.

The Bible says God had other sons besides Jesus before the flood. I've qouted some sources which I'm certain your all familiar with:

1) Again there was a day when the SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord (Job 2:1).

2) When the morning stars sang together, and all the SONS OF GOD shouted for joy (Job 38:7, cf. Psalm 89:6; Daniel 3:25) (Danger Will Robinson warning: this was copied from another website I did not verify it each verse and my be a matter of interpretation)

3) “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the SONS OF GOD saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the SONS OF GOD came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” — Genesis 6:1-5

Now, as a consequence of the SONS OF GOD coming to earth to live amongst humans, can we speculate the SONS OF GOD may have been worshipped as GODS on earth during ancient times and receiving such worship were guilty of becoming objects of idolatry? Speculation. I do not know. Just one of billions of questions I've asked God in my head. Someday I hope to know the truth. I will never know conceretely while on this earth. Only speculation. With no answers.

I do not understand why "God" "Sons" "Son of God" Father" and "Holy Spirit are continously referred to in seperate contexts as three seperate entities throughout the Old Testement and the New Testement. I'm being told :

Jesus IS God.

Yet in the New Testement, it's made abundently clear to me Jesus is the SON OF GOD, Messiah, sacrificed on this earth for humanity redemption, part of Gods plan for Humanity, and that nobody comes to the FATHER except through him. Jesus Christ himself refers to the Father and Holy Spirit in seperate contexts continiously. Does he not?

The first and greatest commandent in the 7 laws of Noah, The Torah/Old Testament was:

1) "I am the Lord they God thou shall have no other gods before me"
2) "Thall shall not make any graven images" (referring to reffering to idols/idol worshipping).

The Messiah is referred to many times in the Torah/Old Testament. Jesus was the Messiah who the Jews rejected. And the greatest commandment of the New Testament given by the Jesus Christ to us as Christians was to Love the Lord thy God will all your heart mind and soul.

Disclaimer: I do not feel comfortable quoting the Bible directly like this because I am just a man, and a sinner, and Jesus in the book of Revelation declares that whoever takes away or adds to words to this book etc. Which scares the ______ out of me since what if he was not just refferring to the book of Revelation but all the books of the Bible. So I have no expertise being a pastor here.

If I have given any wrong or misconstrued information here I am truely sorry and ask for Gods forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. I also apologize if I have offended anyone here with irresponsible brainstorming or legalism. They are only my thoughts personally. I am NOT I repeat NOT trying to sow doubt. Only get to the truth. I just want to know the truth.

Philip wrote:

So, are all Jews saved merely because they believe in the Father? Why does Scripture say the only way to the Father is through the Son? I say that ANYONE who believes in a false Jesus - and believes the teachings of whatever their tradition over Scripture, which ALSO asserts Jesus is not God - cannot be saved. It's one thing to believe in the Son and not YET realize He is also God - but these cult traditions go further and deny Jesus' Deity. That's just belief in a false God - and not the one that truly exists. Again, I believe all Christians will, at some point, and before death, realize that Jesus is also God.

What does the term "Lord" - in reference to Jesus - really mean? https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-is-Lord.html

I will dare to try and answer this. Again, this is only my personal feelings at this point in my life based on the information I've read and not having friendships and fellowship with other believers like I should in my life:

"ARE ALL JEWS SAVED MERELY BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE IN THE FATHER?"


Yes. Absolutely. Faithful practicing Jews are saved because they are Gods original chosen people . God made a covenant directly with Jews and thier future offspring. Jews are in a seperate "catagory" and are judged directly by God. They will not be cut off or sent to hell for rejecting Jesus Chirst. Because there was pre-existing covent between God and the Jewish people. It's in the Bible.

Psalms 94:14 "For the LORD will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance."

See it says so right there.

Also I get the feeling (just a feeling) in some of your posts you're saying:

Jesus IS God. Dissagree? = Never be saved = Going to hell.

Is this correct? Sorry if I am misunderstanding here. Thank you.

Blessed wrote:For those on this forum. Please pick the correct answer if you will:

A) Jesus IS God

B) Jesus is the son of God, Lord and Savior of Mankind, who shed his blood "that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God loved the world so much that he gave his only SON, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life."



For me, "B" seems to be the correct answer. Jesus was the Son of God and Messiah. Throughout the Bible the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned seperately. Three seperate entities. One Trinity. I see Bible verses listed as sources on this website telling me that Jesus IS God. No and's if's or but's. But these verses appear to be a matter of interpretation. That being said please keep in mind I'm not as well versed as others here. I readily admit this.

For me personally it comes down to this: my greatest fear is that by saying "Jesus IS God" I am commiting idolatry by glorifying and worshiping the Son over the Father. One life. One choice. Choose wrong. Go to hell. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. So I have a tendancy to play it ultra safe and conservative out of fear. Jesus is Gods son. And (for me) it's not a matter of polytheism as someone here suggested.

The Bible says God had other sons besides Jesus before the flood. I've qouted some sources which I'm certain your all familiar with:

1) Again there was a day when the SONS OF GOD came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came among them to present himself before the Lord (Job 2:1).

2) When the morning stars sang together, and all the SONS OF GOD shouted for joy (Job 38:7, cf. Psalm 89:6; Daniel 3:25) (Danger Will Robinson warning: this was copied from another website I did not verify it each verse and my be a matter of interpretation)

3) “When man began to multiply on the face of the land and daughters were born to them, the SONS OF GOD saw that the daughters of man were attractive. And they took as their wives any they chose. Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not abide in man forever, for he is flesh: his days shall be 120 years.” The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the SONS OF GOD came in to the daughters of man and they bore children to them. These were the mighty men who were of old, the men of renown. The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” — Genesis 6:1-5

Now, as a consequence of the SONS OF GOD coming to earth to live amongst humans, can we speculate the SONS OF GOD may have been worshipped as GODS on earth during ancient times and receiving such worship were guilty of becoming objects of idolatry? Speculation. I do not know. Just one of billions of questions I've asked God in my head. Someday I hope to know the truth. I will never know conceretely while on this earth. Only speculation. With no answers.

I do not understand why "God" "Sons" "Son of God" Father" and "Holy Spirit are continously referred to in seperate contexts as three seperate entities throughout the Old Testement and the New Testement. I'm being told :

Jesus IS God.

Yet in the New Testement, it's made abundently clear to me Jesus is the SON OF GOD, Messiah, sacrificed on this earth for humanity redemption, part of Gods plan for Humanity, and that nobody comes to the FATHER except through him. Jesus Christ himself refers to the Father and Holy Spirit in seperate contexts continiously. Does he not?

The first and greatest commandent in the 7 laws of Noah, The Torah/Old Testament was:

1) "I am the Lord they God thou shall have no other gods before me"
2) "Thall shall not make any graven images" (referring to reffering to idols/idol worshipping).

The Messiah is referred to many times in the Torah/Old Testament. Jesus was the Messiah who the Jews rejected. And the greatest commandment of the New Testament given by the Jesus Christ to us as Christians was to Love the Lord thy God will all your heart mind and soul.

Disclaimer: I do not feel comfortable quoting the Bible directly like this because I am just a man, and a sinner, and Jesus in the book of Revelation declares that whoever takes away or adds to words to this book etc. Which scares the ______ out of me since what if he was not just refferring to the book of Revelation but all the books of the Bible. So I have no expertise being a pastor here.

If I have given any wrong or misconstrued information here I am truely sorry and ask for Gods forgiveness in the name of Jesus Christ. I also apologize if I have offended anyone here with irresponsible brainstorming or legalism. They are only my thoughts personally. I am NOT I repeat NOT trying to sow doubt. Only get to the truth. I just want to know the truth.

When we say Jesus is God it is acknowledging the trinity as we could also say the Holy Spirit is God too.When you say Jesus is the son of God it is only true because God was born into this world just as we are as a human but fully God in the flesh.Others above have already explained the trinity to you that all three are equally God.We cannot see God but if we could all three would make up God.This is why we say Jesus is God.Jesus was also called the son of man also and this was how much God was willing to humble himself as a human when he is so much more.So that if you seperate the three like you are doing you make three different entities which is not God.Do you really believe there are three different entities in heaven? because that would be three different gods,when God is just one made up of all three.