Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

ACB wrote:
I can agree Jeremiah 4:23-28 looks like a future prophecy however according to future prophecy this cannot fit into future prophecy and this is how we know it is a look back to Genesis 1:2 they both describe the earth being without form and void and the heavens are black too.It is quite easy to see but how are we as Christians going to defeat evolution without the gap theory? Only the gap theory can defeat the theory of evolution.Plus the evidence in the earth backs it up too.There is evidence for a former world full of life that perished.The bible tells us in Isaiah "when the enemy comes in like a flood,the spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.None of the other creation theories defeat evolution like the gap theory.

You're making a BIG mistake by putting all your eggs in a Gap Theory basket.

The Gap theory is not going to defeat Evolution. If types of evolution are not true, we will find out when we get more scientific knowledge. And that goes for the types of evolution that ARE true.

As Knowledge increases in the future, we will see which theory starts to move to the top of all the other creation beliefs.

I hate to break it to you ACB, but there's a possibility that when we find out more, theistic evolution may well be the one that rises to the top.

Is your faith in Christ hanging on your belief in the Gap Theory?

Science cannot demonstrate life evolves and they admit it cannot be observed.This is why the Gap theory defeats evolution because without scientific evidence life evolves they have no credibility and then we can explain why and how the evidence in this earth has been interpreted wrong based on the belief life evolves.It cannot be shown or demonstrated that life evolves so then we can explain the truth about what the evidence in this earth proves and that is a former world existed that perished.Jesus warned about deception in the last days so much that the elect of God could be deceived,do not believe life evolves until a scientist can demonstrate it and not one can right now,relax and don't buy into theistic evolution.

RickD wrote:

ACB wrote:
I can agree Jeremiah 4:23-28 looks like a future prophecy however according to future prophecy this cannot fit into future prophecy and this is how we know it is a look back to Genesis 1:2 they both describe the earth being without form and void and the heavens are black too.It is quite easy to see but how are we as Christians going to defeat evolution without the gap theory? Only the gap theory can defeat the theory of evolution.Plus the evidence in the earth backs it up too.There is evidence for a former world full of life that perished.The bible tells us in Isaiah "when the enemy comes in like a flood,the spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against him.None of the other creation theories defeat evolution like the gap theory.

You're making a BIG mistake by putting all your eggs in a Gap Theory basket.

The Gap theory is not going to defeat Evolution. If types of evolution are not true, we will find out when we get more scientific knowledge. And that goes for the types of evolution that ARE true.

As Knowledge increases in the future, we will see which theory starts to move to the top of all the other creation beliefs.

I hate to break it to you ACB, but there's a possibility that when we find out more, theistic evolution may well be the one that rises to the top.

Is your faith in Christ hanging on your belief in the Gap Theory?

Science cannot demonstrate life evolves and they admit it cannot be observed.This is why the Gap theory defeats evolution because without scientific evidence life evolves they have no credibility and then we can explain why and how the evidence in this earth has been interpreted wrong based on the belief life evolves.It cannot be shown or demonstrated that life evolves so then we can explain the truth about what the evidence in this earth proves and that is a former world existed that perished.Jesus warned about deception in the last days so much that the elect of God could be deceived,do not believe life evolves until a scientist can demonstrate it and not one can right now,relax and don't buy into theistic evolution.

Also William Buckland the very first geology professor at Oxford taught the Gap theory.I have tested the Gap theory against evolutionists and this is also how I know it can defeat evolution.You can try it too.You don't even have to bring the bible into it either you can just propose it as an alternative theory against evolution.

If the Gap theory is true biblically then we as Christians need to take it seriously but if it is not then we can forget about it.But before you just reject it because it does not line up with your understanding right now,or because you've heard it is wrong and not biblical,before you overlook it you need to make sure yourself and you need to compare it to other creation ideas and theories.I have done my best to convince you of the basics of it but do not just reject it because of your opinion.This is God's word and we need to strive to allow God's word to dictate what we believe.So I want you to consider the gap doctrine because I believe it is our answer to evolution and how evolution has been used to mock God and try to make the bible in Genesis look wrong.And no other creation theory out there can defeat evolution,so it is important.

ABC, are you not familiar with Progressive Creationism - it denies macroevolution while offering an understanding that matches up with Old Earth Creationist understandings and the observable scientific evidences. As RICK said, it is absolutely false that Gap Theory offers the only alternative to macroevolution and the various spinoffs of Darwinism. Gap Theory goes were next to NO Hebrew grammatarians accept - that right there should give you considerable pause. Plus then you're forced to very creatively cherry pick various Scripture portions to support GT, often out of context and also liberally reading into the text per the theory as opposed to sound interpretation approaches.

New fanged frog 'gives birth to tadpoles'
Evolution is happening all around. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are but I can't convince you, only show you.

We know from genetic markers and Mito DNA that there was more than one couple involved in the start of the human species. So that kind of overrides a lot of things.

neo-x wrote:New fanged frog 'gives birth to tadpoles'
Evolution is happening all around. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are but I can't convince you, only show you.

We know from genetic markers and Mito DNA that there was more than one couple involved in the start of the human species. So that kind of overrides a lot of things.

Neo-x frogs produce tadpoles this is reproduction,this is kinds producing after their kind like genesis tells us evolution would violate this fact and yet now reproduction is supposed to be evidence life evolves.Neo-x bro look for evidence life evolves and present it,because reproduction is not evolution.It is the same thing with Darwin's finches,finches producing finches God gave the life he created the power to produce its kind,but he also created the life in this world after their kind too,this gets overlooked,but it makes sense if a former world perished.Without evidence life evolves how can you say that we know from genetic markers and mito DNA there was more than one couple?You're looking at the evidence wrong, no pun intended.Proving all life is related does not prove life evolves because God created all life out of the same materials- dirt and humans? Star dust like genesis tells us.it says dust of the ground and star dust constantly falls to the earth,so it makes sense that God picked this up and formed man.

Philip wrote:ABC, are you not familiar with Progressive Creationism - it denies macroevolution while offering an understanding that matches up with Old Earth Creationist understandings and the observable scientific evidences. As RICK said, it is absolutely false that Gap Theory offers the only alternative to macroevolution and the various spinoffs of Darwinism. Gap Theory goes were next to NO Hebrew grammatarians accept - that right there should give you considerable pause. Plus then you're forced to very creatively cherry pick various Scripture portions to support GT, often out of context and also liberally reading into the text per the theory as opposed to sound interpretation approaches.

Look I am an old earth creationist and yet it is because God's word reveals the heavens and earth are old,so I see no reason to stretch the 6 days of creation to be long periods but I actually agree with the progressive creationism the only difference is I believe there was a gap and they don't.I really like Hugh Ross too and he is smart scientifically I seen him on the christian network Daystar about a week ago and I like him and agree alot with him but the bible already reveals the heavens and earth are old.And I don't see how you or others can go on about Hebrew when I have already pointed it out that long ago a Jewish rabbi who understand Hebrew translated the OT into English,do I need to actually find it and let y'all read Genesis 1:2 in it? Because it says "and the earth became without form and void"so somebody is lying.I'm using the same scriptures that St Augustine used to see the gap in scripture.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:New fanged frog 'gives birth to tadpoles'
Evolution is happening all around. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are but I can't convince you, only show you.

We know from genetic markers and Mito DNA that there was more than one couple involved in the start of the human species. So that kind of overrides a lot of things.

Neo-x frogs produce tadpoles this is reproduction,this is kinds producing after their kind like genesis tells us evolution would violate this fact and yet now reproduction is supposed to be evidence life evolves.Neo-x bro look for evidence life evolves and present it,because reproduction is not evolution.It is the same thing with Darwin's finches,finches producing finches God gave the life he created the power to produce its kind,but he also created the life in this world after their kind too,this gets overlooked,but it makes sense if a former world perished.Without evidence life evolves how can you say that we know from genetic markers and mito DNA there was more than one couple?You're looking at the evidence wrong, no pun intended.Proving all life is related does not prove life evolves because God created all life out of the same materials- dirt and humans? Star dust like genesis tells us.it says dust of the ground and star dust constantly falls to the earth,so it makes sense that God picked this up and formed man.

All life related aside, we do know that we have more than one couple as ancestor, do you realize what that implies?
if God made all living things out of same materials that still doesn't affect or solve why we have difference DNA markers of ancestors. If it had been only one couple, we would only have one Mito DNA couple, but we have more, much more so that is why I see the problem in your argument, bro. Every DNA is unique and we have more than single couple imprint in our DNA, so that means NO ONE CAN SAY THAT ALL HUMANS DESCENDED FROM ONE COUPLE. That would be simply untrue and against the proven fact. You can believe that one all humans are from one couple but its not true at all.

By the way I have no problem with you being a Gap theory adherent, creation positions are not representative of one's walk in Christ.

neo-x wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:New fanged frog 'gives birth to tadpoles'
Evolution is happening all around. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are but I can't convince you, only show you.

We know from genetic markers and Mito DNA that there was more than one couple involved in the start of the human species. So that kind of overrides a lot of things.

Neo-x frogs produce tadpoles this is reproduction,this is kinds producing after their kind like genesis tells us evolution would violate this fact and yet now reproduction is supposed to be evidence life evolves.Neo-x bro look for evidence life evolves and present it,because reproduction is not evolution.It is the same thing with Darwin's finches,finches producing finches God gave the life he created the power to produce its kind,but he also created the life in this world after their kind too,this gets overlooked,but it makes sense if a former world perished.Without evidence life evolves how can you say that we know from genetic markers and mito DNA there was more than one couple?You're looking at the evidence wrong, no pun intended.Proving all life is related does not prove life evolves because God created all life out of the same materials- dirt and humans? Star dust like genesis tells us.it says dust of the ground and star dust constantly falls to the earth,so it makes sense that God picked this up and formed man.

All life related aside, we do know that we have more than one couple as ancestor, do you realize what that implies?
if God made all living things out of same materials that still doesn't affect or solve why we have difference DNA markers of ancestors. If it had been only one couple, we would only have one Mito DNA couple, but we have more, much more so that is why I see the problem in your argument, bro. Every DNA is unique and we have more than single couple imprint in our DNA, so that means NO ONE CAN SAY THAT ALL HUMANS DESCENDED FROM ONE COUPLE. That would be simply untrue and against the proven fact. You can believe that one all humans are from one couple but its not true at all.

By the way I have no problem with you being a Gap theory adherent, creation positions are not representative of one's walk in Christ.

What makes you believe them Neo? I mean like the example you gave above they are trying to pass reproduction off as life evolving,they tell people it is evidence life evolves and yet you believe them.I believe evolution is a moneymaking scam in the beginning evolution may have been a legit theory and I see no problem examining theories but now evolution is a scam corrupted by money.science has lost its way along the way trying to say creationists are wrong instead of demonstrating their theory.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:New fanged frog 'gives birth to tadpoles'
Evolution is happening all around. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are but I can't convince you, only show you.

We know from genetic markers and Mito DNA that there was more than one couple involved in the start of the human species. So that kind of overrides a lot of things.

Neo-x frogs produce tadpoles this is reproduction,this is kinds producing after their kind like genesis tells us evolution would violate this fact and yet now reproduction is supposed to be evidence life evolves.Neo-x bro look for evidence life evolves and present it,because reproduction is not evolution.It is the same thing with Darwin's finches,finches producing finches God gave the life he created the power to produce its kind,but he also created the life in this world after their kind too,this gets overlooked,but it makes sense if a former world perished.Without evidence life evolves how can you say that we know from genetic markers and mito DNA there was more than one couple?You're looking at the evidence wrong, no pun intended.Proving all life is related does not prove life evolves because God created all life out of the same materials- dirt and humans? Star dust like genesis tells us.it says dust of the ground and star dust constantly falls to the earth,so it makes sense that God picked this up and formed man.

All life related aside, we do know that we have more than one couple as ancestor, do you realize what that implies?
if God made all living things out of same materials that still doesn't affect or solve why we have difference DNA markers of ancestors. If it had been only one couple, we would only have one Mito DNA couple, but we have more, much more so that is why I see the problem in your argument, bro. Every DNA is unique and we have more than single couple imprint in our DNA, so that means NO ONE CAN SAY THAT ALL HUMANS DESCENDED FROM ONE COUPLE. That would be simply untrue and against the proven fact. You can believe that one all humans are from one couple but its not true at all.

By the way I have no problem with you being a Gap theory adherent, creation positions are not representative of one's walk in Christ.

What makes you believe them Neo? I mean like the example you gave above they are trying to pass reproduction off as life evolving,they tell people it is evidence life evolves and yet you believe them.I believe evolution is a moneymaking scam in the beginning evolution may have been a legit theory and I see no problem examining theories but now evolution is a scam corrupted by money.science has lost its way along the way trying to say creationists are wrong instead of demonstrating their theory.

There is proof of it, hard evidence, so I don't need to believe anyone or take it on their word of mouth. Sadly I can't convince you to see that if its a lie then modern medicine and research should not work, *cough* it does work. A lot in biology specially cancer research has only been possible because we were able to locate them in the DNA. Also we know of mito DNA precisely because of that.

Plus, God made all things from the same material argument has no biblical roots/proof/evidence or support at all. Its an idea that is invented to bypass the problem of shared DNA.

neo-x wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

neo-x wrote:New fanged frog 'gives birth to tadpoles'
Evolution is happening all around. I can't even begin to tell you how wrong you are but I can't convince you, only show you.

We know from genetic markers and Mito DNA that there was more than one couple involved in the start of the human species. So that kind of overrides a lot of things.

Neo-x frogs produce tadpoles this is reproduction,this is kinds producing after their kind like genesis tells us evolution would violate this fact and yet now reproduction is supposed to be evidence life evolves.Neo-x bro look for evidence life evolves and present it,because reproduction is not evolution.It is the same thing with Darwin's finches,finches producing finches God gave the life he created the power to produce its kind,but he also created the life in this world after their kind too,this gets overlooked,but it makes sense if a former world perished.Without evidence life evolves how can you say that we know from genetic markers and mito DNA there was more than one couple?You're looking at the evidence wrong, no pun intended.Proving all life is related does not prove life evolves because God created all life out of the same materials- dirt and humans? Star dust like genesis tells us.it says dust of the ground and star dust constantly falls to the earth,so it makes sense that God picked this up and formed man.

All life related aside, we do know that we have more than one couple as ancestor, do you realize what that implies?
if God made all living things out of same materials that still doesn't affect or solve why we have difference DNA markers of ancestors. If it had been only one couple, we would only have one Mito DNA couple, but we have more, much more so that is why I see the problem in your argument, bro. Every DNA is unique and we have more than single couple imprint in our DNA, so that means NO ONE CAN SAY THAT ALL HUMANS DESCENDED FROM ONE COUPLE. That would be simply untrue and against the proven fact. You can believe that one all humans are from one couple but its not true at all.

By the way I have no problem with you being a Gap theory adherent, creation positions are not representative of one's walk in Christ.

What makes you believe them Neo? I mean like the example you gave above they are trying to pass reproduction off as life evolving,they tell people it is evidence life evolves and yet you believe them.I believe evolution is a moneymaking scam in the beginning evolution may have been a legit theory and I see no problem examining theories but now evolution is a scam corrupted by money.science has lost its way along the way trying to say creationists are wrong instead of demonstrating their theory.

There is proof of it, hard evidence, so I don't need to believe anyone or take it on their word of mouth. Sadly I can't convince you to see that if its a lie then modern medicine and research should not work, *cough* it does work. A lot in biology specially cancer research has only been possible because we were able to locate them in the DNA. Also we know of mito DNA precisely because of that.

Plus, God made all things from the same material argument has no biblical roots/proof/evidence or support at all. Its an idea that is invented to bypass the problem of shared DNA.

You are just preaching it but have no evidence in science that can demonstrate life evolves.How can you post that evidence above that is supposed to be life evolving and yet I show you it is just reproduction and it is,and yet you somehow have been convinced reproduction is evidence that life evolves,when all you see is a frog producing frogs,there is absolutely no life evolving in it and this is why I don't trust them,they have no credibility trying to pass reproduction off as evidence life evolves.Show me the hard evidence that truly demonstrates life evolves if you want to change my mind,not some peer reviewed scientific paper telling me dinosaurs evolved into birds,I do not want their opinion at all,I want to see it demonstrated that life can evolve.It is a cop-out for them to say evolution is scientifically proven and yet they can't demonstrate life evolves,if life evolves they very well could actually demonstrate life evolves,instead of telling us it does.I already have the bible to believe by faith and do not need another faith.I'll believe God over man.I have already given more evidence to back up what I believe than you have with God .picking up dust of the ground and forming man and yet we are star dust.
Also it is because life can adapt not evolve that medicines have been produced.You show me a virus or bacteria that has ever evolved and I'll show you viruses remaining viruses and bacteria always being bacteria which proves life cannot evolve,only adapt.

Your Morten's demon will not let you see that evidence ACB, so good luck with that.

neo-x wrote:All life related aside, we do know that we have more than one couple as ancestor, do you realize what that implies?
if God made all living things out of same materials that still doesn't affect or solve why we have difference DNA markers of ancestors. If it had been only one couple, we would only have one Mito DNA couple, but we have more, much more so that is why I see the problem in your argument, bro. Every DNA is unique and we have more than single couple imprint in our DNA, so that means NO ONE CAN SAY THAT ALL HUMANS DESCENDED FROM ONE COUPLE. That would be simply untrue and against the proven fact. You can believe that one all humans are from one couple but its not true at all.

Mito DNA doesn't evidence a couple, but rather a common ancestor to all women -- e.g., Mito Eve.
Are you suggesting that studies which estimate how far back our common ancestor were with Mito Eve and Y-Chrom Adam are foundationally wrong?

By Couple I meant Mito Eve and Adam, but not them as a couple but rather a couple of Mito Ancestors. That's the point, the Mito DNA is not the only one we have, its the only one which is unbroken yet, mind you that is the DNA we are talking about, as it doesn't point to one individual. Other women from mito eve's times have descendants alive today. Not only that, we also know that Mito-eve as a person is not fixed, whenever one of the two most ancient branch lines dies out, the MRCA will move to a more recent female ancestor.

So we don't only have mito eve's dna, we have other dna as well, which clearly shows more than a single couple which populated the earth.