Evidence for God from Science

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote:

RickD wrote:Since LTNL politely asked for only constructive posts, I'll oblige.

Constructive posts only? Then why are you posting, LostTribesNotLost???

FL...................................................................

Aha! Hoist by his own petard, perhaps?

RickD wrote: Aha! Hoist by his own petard, perhaps?

Excuse me...I must join my mentor and insist on constructive posts only!

LostTribesNotLost please do not listen to Israelites who marry outside their tribe.

FL

I am still waiting for a reply from BW AND FL on 2 of the three points I made in a previous post.
I am also still waiting for a response from Phillip...
I will give Phil a chance to reply though, maybe he can reply by end of this weekend.

BW and FL where is your response to my 2 points?
It is very esy to post links, but not as easy to defend valid criticism of the content of those links, in your own words.

And yet you just keep posting more links on slightly different topics, that still doesn't address the concerns I raised.

Could it be that you are trying to avoid answering the serious concerns I raised about the arguements of your hero David Baron?

Let me get this straight: So the Jews are not Israel, the Anglo-Saxons are? And so it will be the Brits and not the Jews, who will be restored in the millennium, and they will then rule with Christ. The Throne of David now sits in England? Gee, and those silly Jews are so deluded as to think THEY are the descendants of Abraham, the Patriarchs, David, etc. But none in Britain's royal household seems to know this. Plus, they're IN THE WRONG FREAKING PLACE! Hitler gassed the wrong race? The return from around the world of Jews to historic Israel, it becoming a nation again, recapturing its historic lands - all just one big coincidence. How can one be so deluded?

Listen, the above is enough to reject and laugh at it - and ANYONE whom happens to know just a bit of history of the world knows that this is right up there with Joseph Smith's fantasies. One need go no further to know this. PLUS, look at the creative Scriptural cherry-picking that is required to cobble together this twisted belief. Look, I don't care if you think Elvis is still alive, has thinned down and has been hidden away by the mob, all these years. Really, I'd be more inclined to believe that than to believe this nationalistic, relgious fantasy. I mean, to believe this you have to discount all historic and Scriptural scholarship and knowledge. And look at the loonytoons who originated this stuff. Oh, and the church missed this for 19 centuries???!!! Seriously, you should pray very carefully over this and you should sincerely and open-mindedly read Christian scholars who have totally discredited this.

You do believe Jesus is God in the flesh, crucified and ressurected? DO you? That only faith in Him will save you? I only ask because I wonder how else you may have been misled.

Apart from the Sarcasm, I would seriously reiterate what Phillip is saying LTNL. You have been seriously misled. I know this because I deal with a friend in real-life who believes the same and has zero knowledge or independent study of history. She has just read a couple of books on the subject and watched a series of documentaries and she is quite adamant that its true. I have tried convincing her on multiple occasions that this isn't true but because she lacks in "research on her own", department, I am at a loss.

I would ask you how seriously have you considered the material and what authorship or scholarship you think is authentic and peer reviewed?

I don't think you are not a christian because you have this belief, but theological assumptions aside, its simply not true. And for that reason alone, if nothing else, you should look more into this. Thanks.

LostTribesNotLost wrote:I am still waiting for a reply from BW AND FL on 2 of the three points I made in a previous post.
I am also still waiting for a response from Phillip...
I will give Phil a chance to reply though, maybe he can reply by end of this weekend.

BW and FL where is your response to my 2 points?
It is very esy to post links, but not as easy to defend valid criticism of the content of those links, in your own words.

And yet you just keep posting more links on slightly different topics, that still doesn't address the concerns I raised.

Could it be that you are trying to avoid answering the serious concerns I raised about the arguements of your hero David Baron?

I'll answer again in the same manner regarding your points mentioned above:

(Don't) Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes, Proverbs 26:5 NKJV
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LostTribesNotLost,

Can't you see what's going on here? Every person who has responded, has tried to tell you in his own way that British Israelism is wrong. Biblically, and historically, it's just wrong.

Please, listen to what we are saying to you. Nobody wants to get into a debate with someone who is so blinded by his errant beliefs, that he twists scripture, history and logic, to back his beliefs.

You are so entrenched in this garbage, that the only thing that can help you is yourself. You need to be willing to see that your beliefs in this are wrong.

Please open your eyes and pray for discernment on this. If you are willing to admit the possibility that you're wrong, and earnestly seek God's guidance, He will show you.

I'll be praying for you.

LostTribesNotLost, What about all of us Israelites who are uncircumcised??? Have we been excluded from Israel as indicated in Genesis 17:14? Please answer, I'm worried sick...

FL

I come from a long line of Scottish ancestors who were all circumcised, just as Christ was, so I don't have anything to worry about.
I encourage you to do the same and reduce the risk of your wife getting cervical cancer as evidenced by modern studies.

"Can't you see what's going on here? Every person who has responded, has tried to tell you in his own way that British Israelism is wrong. Biblically, and historically, it's just wrong. "

Simply telling someone that BI is wrong is not enough.
Proving it is what is required.
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." - 1 Thessalonians 5:21
You all have done a miserable job at doing that and your only excuse is that it is not worth debating with a fool.

Would a fool respond in detail to the links you post that claim to prove what you say?
Look at all the time you have wasted ridiculing me.
In that same time, if you are as knowledgable as you claim about scripture and history, you could have easily disproved every one of my rebutals in detail and answered each of my questions with time to spare.

I maintain that you have not done so because you are not able to do so.
I have asked some very simple questions that you have all failed to answer.
If you really think me a fool, then why do you keep asking me different questions and changing the subject?
Why do you keep diverting if my questions are so easy to answer and easily proved false?
It is like debating with an eight year old.

I have not twisted scripture and logic as you claim, I have asked simple questions related to clear and simple verses in the Bible. My questions have remained unanswered.

Even Philip, who I gave the benefit of the doubt and who said: "OK, lost tribe - I'll bite" - has been less than honest and not really bitten at all.
And I have responded to his "bite" - to which I have received no response (at least not to precicesly what I wrote in reply to him).

There seems to be a clear pattern emerging here.
Even those who claim to want to engage with me, are less than honest in their claims.
I enourage ALL OF YOU to spend time studying the Bible and what BI authors claim in more detail - especially those who have taken the time to fully address their critics. I know my Bible and my history books. All of you are the ones who need to read more about BI before denouncing it, as I have repeatedly requested of you.

I think the claim of not wanting to debate with a fool is a cheap cop out.
Verb
cop out (third-person singular simple present cops out, present participle copping out, simple past and past participle copped out)
(idiomatic) To avoid or shirk, either by failing to perform, or by performing in a grossly insufficient, negligent, or
superficial manner.
eg. Faced with the prospect of cooking for himself, his first thought was to cop out and order a pizza.

For people who think I am a fool, it is amazing that you have been following this thread for so long.
It makes me think that it is highly probable that you DO NOT think me a fool, but are just unable to respond to my questions.

Phillip, since you have not responded to my reply to your questions, as I have requested, I continue this one sided converstion and answer the latest round of questions you have posed. I will do for you, what you have been unwilling, or unable to do for me and I will love my enemies as myself.
Maybe that will inspire you to repsond in detail to my last post where I clearly addressed you above.

I think you will be surprised by what I am about to write, even if you are not willing to admit it.
In fact it is shocking that the average Christian is so blinded, by their ministers lack of coverage in this area, that they have not discovered these simple facts themselves. I guess it's easy when your Judeo-Christian minister reads your Bible for you.

Here goes:

Many of those who criticise BI point to the prophesies the Jews have fulfilled and to the lack of prophesies that the European people have fulfilled regarding occupying Palestine. I will get to that in a moment, but I would first like to refer here to the prophesies pertaining to the people Israel, not the land called Israel. [PS - The land was never called "Israel" in the Bible, it was always called "the land of Canaan", "Palestine" and "Palestina" both before and after Jacob/Israel and his descendands occupied the area. I challenge anyone to quote more than one scripture proving otherwise. At closest the land was refered to as "the land of Israel", but never "Israel". - - - Israel = Jacob (Israel) the person as well as his posterity. Any Hebrew concordance will confirm this. eg. Strongs's concordance].

What they fail to address however is that although both groups have not yet fullfilled all the prophesies pertaining to Israel (the people, not the land remember), amazingly:

The Europeans have actually fulfilled far MORE of these prophesies than the Jews have!!!

The Europeans have become as numerous as the sands of the sea (figuratively of course).
The Europeans have become a nation and a company of nations (the British commonwealth).
The Euopeans have been called by a new name. (no longer Israelite, or Jew as before.)
The Europeans have been a light unto the Gentiles (missionaries) and have broken up Pagan rule.
The Europeans have been those: "Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?" Isaiah 60:8
The Europeans have been Christ sheep, who have believed in Him and have followed Him for the past 2000 years.
The Europeans have received the abundance of the oceans.
The Europeans have fulfilled the prophesy in which they were told: "Thou shalt also suck the milk [technical knowledge] of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob." Isaiah 60:16 [references to scripture for those I left out are available on request]

As I have already shown in a previous post, a lot of the references to Israel returning to Palestine in prophesy either have no timeframe attached in those verses, OR those verses that DO have a timeframe attached, clearly show that it will only happen after Christ returns (refer to my previous post addressing this in prophesy in more detail).

Bearing this fact in mind it is easy to see why the Jews have NOT fullfilled the following prophesies in over 66 years since 1948 (in addition to those above that I have already mentioned):

Ezekiel 38:11 describes the land of Israel to be invaded as "the land of unwalled villages ... them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates." Israeli villages are walled and its borders wire, mine fields, machine gun nests, and tanks to keep out the "heathen" who are in awe, not of the Jew's blessings, but of ‘their’ armaments from America AND AMERICA'S PROMISE TO PROTECT THEM ! And what blessings have America received ever since in return.
America has started going down ever since supporting the false "State of Israel", not just from islamic terrorism, but financially, socially and in every other way, but only since supporting Israel ever since WW2.

ONLY A FOOL WILL DENY THESE FACTS!!!

"Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit
will I put within you: And I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, And I will give you a heart of flesh." -

Ezekiel 36:25-26 Do most Jews fullfil this prophesy, or deny Christ to this day?

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be."

Wiktionary.org - sceptre (plural sceptres)

- An ornamental staff held by a ruling monarch as a symbol of power.

Where is the descendand of David on the throne in "the state of Israel"????????
Where is his sceptre that "shall not depart from Judah...until shiloh come"???????
You do know who Shiloh is, right?

You talk about Britain's royal household.
Their hearaldry is full of symbols relating to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (lion and unicorn) and they have long known about their true identity even from the days of the Scottish declaration of independance / Declaration of Arbroath. (detail available on request).
Just because they don't publically go on about it, does not mean they are not aware of it.
In fact they are almost fanatical about it.

The royal line exists in England and even though it is currently powerless since Oliver Cromwell and his zionist financiers took over.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menasseh_Ben_Israel)
it's integrity, symbology, throne, crown, "sceptre" and ability to fulfil prophesy has remained all this time, awaiting the time of Christ's return.

I will continue to pray and have hope that God will grant you all the strength, wisdom and humbleness to respond to all these points I have raised in good, scholarly fashion and without the sarcasm, hypocrisy and malice of the Pharisees.

America has started going down ever since supporting the false "State of Israel", not just from islamic terrorism, but financially, socially and in every other way, but only since supporting Israel ever since WW2.

A big hint there - so it's NOT just a matter that we've mistaken Israel for being the modern descendants of the original Jews, but supporting them has brought us much evil and ruin, "financially, socially," etc.

Two places in Ezekiel tell us that Jerusalem is the center of the world. In Ezekiel 5:5, Jeremiah quotes God as saying, "This is Jerusalem; I have set her at the center of the nations." And again, in Ezekiel 38:12, the Jewish people are referred to as the people who live at the "center of the world." And actually, the literal Hebrew reads, "the navel of the world." NOT in the British Isles! You have so much wrong - and the geographic location of Israel is unchangeable in history and prophecy. Israel and it's historic land cannot be separated. In fact, the convent with Abraham has promises about the very land: ""I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

You ignore the obvious from Scripture that, though hugely unlikely, yet has been incredilby fulfilled:

- the worldwide regathering of the Jewish people to their homeland which started in the 1890's and continues to this day,
- the re-establishment of the Jewish state which occurred on May 14th, 1948,
- the re-occupation of Jerusalem which happened on June 7th, 1967, and

The Bible's references to the Mount of Olives at Christ's return also shows you need a map! (READ Zechariah 14!)

No it was not a "BIG HINT", I was very clear in what I said.
Additionally I don't see you denying the modern state America finds itself in, or bothering to explain why America is not being blessed for blessing Israel as the Bible promises it would!!!

If you were alluding to some kind of discovery you have made, maybe one where I can now finally be smeared as an : "anti-semite" "anti-semite" !!!
Don't bother wasting your time.
Many brave and honorable Jews like Arthur Koestler, and Benjamin Freedman have already, long before me, exposed the true ethnic origins of most modern Jews.

Firstly I acknowlege that any mention of Jerusalem IS the Jerusalem in Palestine that is being mentioned in prophesy.

However, your understanding is so obviously false that I don't even know where to start.

It is interesting that you did not quote the previous verse before Ezekiel 38 verse 12:
i.e. verse 11 "And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates."

Sound much like the State of Israel to you?

While I do not deny Jerusalem as being very important to God (even when Israel didn't occupy it in the past) and possibly the fact that He considered the geographical centre of the world to be there, Jerusalem is not mentioned in this verse.
The term "Jewish people" also appears nowhere in the original verse as you insinuate. (not even in your Bible version).
Tarshish (Spain) is also mentioned in verse 13, further implying Jerusalem as being unlikely as the location implied in this prophesy.

You then say "Israel and it's historic land cannot be separated".
And yet in the next breath you say that they have been seperated for centuries:
You say: "the worldwide regathering of the Jewish people to their homeland which started in the 1890's and continues to this day."

To end, I acknowledge that the mount of Olives refers to Jerusalem in Palestine, however:
Once you have answered the damning arguements which I have made above, I have a question to ask you:

Which comes first, Zechariah 14, or the following:

Jeremiah 30:23
Behold, the whirlwind of the LORD goeth forth with fury, a continuing whirlwind: it shall fall with pain upon the head of the wicked.
24 The fierce anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have done it, and until he have performed the intents of his heart: in the LATTER DAYS ye shall consider it.
1 ¶ At the SAME TIME, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.
2 Thus saith the LORD, The people which were left of the sword (Assyrian killing in the captivity) found grace (Christ) in the wilderness (Northern Europe); even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
(PS - Have most Jews found grace?)
5 Thou shalt yet plant vines upon the mountains of Samaria: the planters shall plant, and shall eat them as common things.
6 For there shall be a day, that the watchmen upon the mount Ephraim shall cry, Arise ye, and let us go up to Zion unto the LORD our God.
7 For thus saith the LORD; Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout among the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O LORD, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country (Europe), and gather them from the coasts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall return thither.
9 They shall come with weeping, and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters in a straight way, wherein they shall not stumble: for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn.
10 ¶ Hear the word of the LORD, O ye (Israelite) nations, and declare it in the (British) isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.
11 For the LORD hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. (Esau)
12 Therefore they shall come and sing in the height of Zion
(Brackets are mine above).

This quote in Jeremiah refers to the end time return of - not just the Jews - but all tribes of the Israelites to Palestine.
It clearly indicates it will only happen when Christ returns and/or "at the same time" as the day of judgement on the wicked.
I am sure you will not deny that.

So here we have two prophesies:
Zechariah 14 - Saying that the enemies of Israel will attack Jerusalem and Christ will defend Jerusalem against them in the end days.
Jeremiah 30-31 - Saying Israel will return to Palestine in the end days.

I ask you now, which comes first and can you prove what you say?

Surely if Jeremiah, or at least the part in Jeremiah concerning the Israelite return to Palestine, comes first, then surely Christ will be defending Jerusalem - a Jerusalem filled with European Caucasian Israelites who have just returned to Palestine at about the same time as this war. The same European Israel I have substantially proven above to fulfil almost every prophesy concerning Israel up to this current point in history.

As I have already shown above, the mass return of Israel to Palestine will only happen when Christ returns.Therefore what you have shown in Zechariah - Christ defending Jerusalem which I do not deny - is meaningless in proving the modern Jews are Israel, or that they will be occupying Jerusalem when Christ defends it against the heathen.

True Israel will be occupying Jerusalem by that time that Christ defends them.

Do you want actual proof that goes beyond just showing that the modern Jews (Edomites/Idumea) are mostly not Israel?
Proof that shows that they have actually illegally appropriated Gods land, Palestine into their posession (for now)?

Ezekiel 36:5 "Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Surely in the fire of my jealousy have I spoken against the residue of the heathen, and against ALL IDUMEA, which have APPOINTED MY LAND into their possession with the joy of all their heart, with despiteful minds, to cast it out for a prey."
Palestine / Jerusalem / Samaria has always been designated as "His land", as apposed to the lands in which Israel has dwelt which has varied over the centuries. (eg. "the isles", "the north country" and "the wilderness").

The Edomites , or Idumeans converted to Judaism about 200 years before Christ and King Herod was an Edomite, of many who conspired to frame Christ in front of the Romans. Pilate publically washed his hands off the matter if you read your Bible and then the (Edomite) Jews led Christ, a true Judean Jew away to be crucified (they had their own soldiers and limited self rule in the area.)

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee." - Revelation 3:9
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." - John 8:44
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." - Revelation 2:9
John 8:37 "I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you."
38 ¶ I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(i.e. Edomites are from Abraham (via Esau), but are also not from Abraham (via Canaan).

LostTribesNotLost wrote:...The Europeans have actually fulfilled far MORE of these prophesies than the Jews have!!!

The Europeans have become as numerous as the sands of the sea (figuratively of course).
The Europeans have become a nation and a company of nations (the British commonwealth).
The Euopeans have been called by a new name. (no longer Israelite, or Jew as before.)
The Europeans have been a light unto the Gentiles (missionaries) and have broken up Pagan rule.
The Europeans have been those: "Who are these that fly as a cloud, and as the doves to their windows?" Isaiah 60:8
The Europeans have been Christ sheep, who have believed in Him and have followed Him for the past 2000 years.
The Europeans have received the abundance of the oceans.
The Europeans have fulfilled the prophesy in which they were told: "Thou shalt also suck the milk [technical knowledge] of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob." Isaiah 60:16 [references to scripture for those I left out are available on request]

ONLY A FOOL WILL DENY THESE FACTS!!!

The Decline of European Christianity
Tuesday, December 10, 2013
By John Christy -

Countries such as France and Sweden are among the highest percentage of people today who explicitly deny the existence of God at 40% and 34% respectively and only 27% and 18% who still hold to belief, which leaves a large population in the middle that is ambiguous.1 What caused Christianity to fall behind as European secularism took the center stage of culture? Can Christianity survive in a European secular society where belief and church attendance has dramatically decreased?

http://www.johnchristy.com/The-Decline- ... ristianity

European Christianity's "Failure to Thrive"
Why Christendom, born with an imperial bang, is now fading away in an irrelevant whimper.
Collin Hansen

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/new ... jul18.html

See also...

http://dearephesusdotcom.files.wordpres ... rches1.pdf

LostTribesNotLost wrote:...ONLY A FOOL WILL DENY THESE FACTS!!!

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Wow BW, you guys are really getting desperate now!!!

I will not deny those facts, because I am not a fool.
Yes there has been a decline in faith to some extent.

I am sure you like to claim that these same events will happen in the end days (along with people following the anti-Christ, etc) with regard to the modern "Jews", a people who for the most part have NEVER even accepted Christ in the first place.

And yet, you choose to condem what I say when I attribute the same to British Israel!!!
You seem to have two different standards in the way that you judge other peoples beliefs compared to your own.

You also really need to understand that the future blessings and promises to the descendands of Joseph, Judah and Israel (the people, not the land) as a whole were UNCONDITIONAL. In the same way the line of David is being preserved, whether currently righteous, or not and whether currently (or in the past) in power or not in power.

On the other end of the stick, the right of Israel to live in the Holy Land was CONDITIONAL and dependant on their willingness to keep Gods commandments.
This is why they were evicted from the Holy Land numerous times for breaking those commandments - from the time of The Exodus, to Assyria, to Babylon.

And just to clarify, when I said Europeans, I did not just mean Europeans living in Europe, but American Europeans, Australian Europeans, South African Europeans, Russian Europeans (the white Russians were of Germanic stock).
It is true that European Israel has to some extent lost it's faith recently (America to a far lessor extent).
This event has been prophesied, but it has no effect on the prophetic blessings prophesied for Israel in and near the end times.
It also has no effect on the true identity of modern Anglo-Saxon Israel who despite a very recent decline in faith have still been the most active, passionate and successful spreaders of the gospel in all human history as the sheep of Christ. No other nation(s) do come close, or have come even close - most certainly not the modern Jews.

It is also worth mentioning that Israel occupied Northern Europe according to British Israel teachings.
Southern Europe was occupied in large numbers by the Romans and Greeks (Gentiles).
However before the waves of Israelite nations overflowed from the areas around the Caucasus, westward into nothern Europe, those regions in which they flooded into were relatively sparsely populated with Gentiles, quite different to the massive Roman and Greek populations further south in the warmer, more hospitable Meditteranean regions. This is how these Israelites remained relatively unmixed and also how they managed to so easily inhabit these regions of Europe with little effort. The fact that the Roman empire had met its end also helped I guess. Was it not the Visigoths themselves who sacked Rome and inherrited the Gentiles.
Isaiah 54:3 "For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited."

LostTribesNotLost,

Since you've put so much time into studying British Israelism, why does it matter?