Evidence for God from Science

Yes but I do not use my knowledge to change what is says. But the bible was wrote so that I could use English to understand it. Not to read it and change what it says because I do not agree.

jpbg33 wrote:The bible says our knowledge is stupidity compared to God's and that hell is eternal. So if God says it is eternal then it is. To say that it is not eternal is to use our knowledge which God said isn't worth much.

Do you think if you cease to exist that it would mean eternally.

Save your "I believe the Bible", because I believe the Bible also, just not your interpretation of it.

Rob wrote:

Danieltwotwenty wrote: How can there be fire in hell if there is only darkness? God is light, the absence of God is darkness, hell is the absence of God, hence hell is darkness (or nothingness).

Maybe it's black-fire, brah.

Maybe it is.............

jpbg33 wrote:What about the rich man who die. Whether it was a parable or not Jesus said he was living in fire and talked about others in that same fire. He said there was a great guff in between paradise and hell and that people could not go from hell to paradise or from paradise to hell. So according to Jesus you don't die.

It's a parable. So you think people in hell can talk?
Remember hell can be destroyed so what is it, bar a pagan doctrine?

Jac3510 wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:Gehenna was a real place where people took their trash to be burned and the fire was always kept burning

I've not been following this thread, but this line did jump out at me. Just FYI, this is more than likely a myth. Sort of like the popular idea that the high priest would enter the temple with a rope tied around his ankle so he could be pulled out if he died in the presence of God or like the idea that "the eye of the needle" was actually a small gate that camels could only go through if they were unloaded. Those kinds of myths are popular in biblical interpretation. The idea that Gehenna was a sort of perpetually burning dump is just one of those. It makes for a good story, and it seems to make sense of the biblical imagery about hell. But there's just no evidence that it is true. In fact, scholars are now pretty sure that it actually came from a rabbi in the thirteenth century named Kimchi. As a matter of fact, this isn't a terribly new point, with The Biblical Archeologist(49..3, pp. 188-89) saying way back in 1986 that the theory finds "no support in literary sources or archaeological data from the intertestamental or rabbinic periods. There is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a garbage dump, and thus his explanation is insufficient."

That doesn't mean, by the way, that no trash was ever burned there. It's not surprising that we do, in fact, find some burned pieces in the valley, but nothing like what people tend to describe it as when they talk about the relationship between the Hinnom and Hell.

Take it for whatever you think it's worth.

Carry on.

The doctrine of immortal life in disobedience is old, it goes back to the words of the serpent in the garden.

jpbg33 wrote:Jesus spoke of hell many times and about it being a place of torment not inaillation(sorry I can't spell it ). So if Jesus said you are going there if you die a sinner. Then if you die a sinner you will go there. I hate that people go there but it is there on choice. They don't have to go they choose to go by refusing to live right.

The gospel saves us from death doesn't it?

Either you die as God said or you don't die as the devil said to Eve. Make a choice - God or the devil, who do you believe?

Oh but nearly all religions believe this and that, - they believe in the devil.

Starhunter wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:Jesus spoke of hell many times and about it being a place of torment not inaillation(sorry I can't spell it ). So if Jesus said you are going there if you die a sinner. Then if you die a sinner you will go there. I hate that people go there but it is there on choice. They don't have to go they choose to go by refusing to live right.

The gospel saves us from death doesn't it?

Either you die as God said or you don't die as the devil said to Eve. Make a choice - God or the devil, who do you believe?

Oh but nearly all religions believe this and that, - they believe in the devil.

Read Revelation 14:11. How can the smoke of their torment rise up forever and ever and they have no rest day nor night if they die?Those in hell will be alive forever because nobodies soul ever dies,only our flesh dies.Also God does not kill,not even Satan,all of the fallen angels and every demon spirit will be put to death,they will burn in hell forever which means they are alive the whole time,for eternity. Revelation20:15.This is why it is so important to try to reach the lost with the gospel.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Starhunter wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:Jesus spoke of hell many times and about it being a place of torment not inaillation(sorry I can't spell it ). So if Jesus said you are going there if you die a sinner. Then if you die a sinner you will go there. I hate that people go there but it is there on choice. They don't have to go they choose to go by refusing to live right.

The gospel saves us from death doesn't it?

Either you die as God said or you don't die as the devil said to Eve. Make a choice - God or the devil, who do you believe?

Oh but nearly all religions believe this and that, - they believe in the devil.

Read Revelation 14:11. How can the smoke of their torment rise up forever and ever and they have no rest day nor night if they die?Those in hell will be alive forever because nobodies soul ever dies,only our flesh dies.Also God does not kill,not even Satan,all of the fallen angels and every demon spirit will be put to death,they will burn in hell forever which means they are alive the whole time,for eternity. Revelation20:15.This is why it is so important to try to reach the lost with the gospel.

But how can they be alive if they are dead...

We know there is a first and second death, but a clear and concise definition of the second death is not agreed upon. (Revelation 21:8)
It's also worth mentioning that no one really likes the idea of physical fire; and I'm sure this commonly held notion plays a deciding role in many minds.

I have read BW's book, and it seems that his definition is in line with scripture. I think its also impartial to envision the fires of hell and the smoke rising from it as metaphorical in the sense that, the scourge they bear from their own self torment is fire, and it will continue indefinitely (smoke).

Alpha~Omega wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Starhunter wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:Jesus spoke of hell many times and about it being a place of torment not inaillation(sorry I can't spell it ). So if Jesus said you are going there if you die a sinner. Then if you die a sinner you will go there. I hate that people go there but it is there on choice. They don't have to go they choose to go by refusing to live right.

The gospel saves us from death doesn't it?

Either you die as God said or you don't die as the devil said to Eve. Make a choice - God or the devil, who do you believe?

Oh but nearly all religions believe this and that, - they believe in the devil.

Read Revelation 14:11. How can the smoke of their torment rise up forever and ever and they have no rest day nor night if they die?Those in hell will be alive forever because nobodies soul ever dies,only our flesh dies.Also God does not kill,not even Satan,all of the fallen angels and every demon spirit will be put to death,they will burn in hell forever which means they are alive the whole time,for eternity. Revelation20:15.This is why it is so important to try to reach the lost with the gospel.

But how can they be alive if they are dead...

We know there is a first and second death, but a clear and concise definition of the second death is not agreed upon. (Revelation 21:8)
It's also worth mentioning that no one really likes the idea of physical fire; and I'm sure this commonly held notion plays a deciding role in many minds.

I have read BW's book, and it seems that his definition is in line with scripture. I think its also impartial to envision the fires of hell and the smoke rising from it as metaphorical in the sense that, the scourge they bear from their own self torment is fire, and it will continue indefinitely (smoke).

Yeah and the part about death and hell being thrown into hell,but I still say that if they are tormented day and night and have no rest they are alive forever.The only way you could interpret it to not be hell fire forever is to think it is metaphorical but I don't see it that way. Hell is a troublesome thing to many Christians as you know but I take the bible literally and if you do this you'll believe the people who go there burn in hell forever.Once we start deciding what is metaphorical then can we really believe the gospels about Jesus and him rising from the dead? I don't like the slippery slope so even though I may be uncomfortable about hell fire forever I'm still going to accept it.Now we know there is symbolism in the bible like in Revelation but we know it is symbolic by reading it and realize we need to understand what they symbolize in order to have understanding like the 7 heads and 10 horns on the scarlet colored beast,etc.

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Alpha~Omega wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:

Starhunter wrote:

jpbg33 wrote:Jesus spoke of hell many times and about it being a place of torment not inaillation(sorry I can't spell it ). So if Jesus said you are going there if you die a sinner. Then if you die a sinner you will go there. I hate that people go there but it is there on choice. They don't have to go they choose to go by refusing to live right.

The gospel saves us from death doesn't it?

Either you die as God said or you don't die as the devil said to Eve. Make a choice - God or the devil, who do you believe?

Oh but nearly all religions believe this and that, - they believe in the devil.

Read Revelation 14:11. How can the smoke of their torment rise up forever and ever and they have no rest day nor night if they die?Those in hell will be alive forever because nobodies soul ever dies,only our flesh dies.Also God does not kill,not even Satan,all of the fallen angels and every demon spirit will be put to death,they will burn in hell forever which means they are alive the whole time,for eternity. Revelation20:15.This is why it is so important to try to reach the lost with the gospel.

But how can they be alive if they are dead...

We know there is a first and second death, but a clear and concise definition of the second death is not agreed upon. (Revelation 21:8)
It's also worth mentioning that no one really likes the idea of physical fire; and I'm sure this commonly held notion plays a deciding role in many minds.

I have read BW's book, and it seems that his definition is in line with scripture. I think its also impartial to envision the fires of hell and the smoke rising from it as metaphorical in the sense that, the scourge they bear from their own self torment is fire, and it will continue indefinitely (smoke).

Yeah and the part about death and hell being thrown into hell,but I still say that if they are tormented day and night and have no rest they are alive forever.The only way you could interpret it to not be hell fire forever is to think it is metaphorical but I don't see it that way. Hell is a troublesome thing to many Christians as you know but I take the bible literally and if you do this you'll believe the people who go there burn in hell forever.Once we start deciding what is metaphorical then can we really believe the gospels about Jesus and him rising from the dead? I don't like the slippery slope so even though I may be uncomfortable about hell fire forever I'm still going to accept it.Now we know there is symbolism in the bible like in Revelation but we know it is symbolic by reading it and realize we need to understand what they symbolize in order to have understanding like the 7 heads and 10 horns on the scarlet colored beast,etc.

You take all of the Bible to be literal or just the bits you choose to take literally?

For your information we all take the Bible literally when it's in it's proper context, you just equate your interpretation as God's word itself.

I am most uncomfortable with annihilation-ism, it does not make me feel comfortable at all, I think it is a terrible thing to just cease to exist but yet that is what I believe the Bible says. It is not a slippery slope as I take the Bible just as literally as yourself, I just understand it in a different context and don't agree with your interpretation.

You do realise that it is a form of idolatry to equate your interpretation of God's word as God's word itself and you can see the fruits of that idolatry when you bad mouth anyone else that doesn't agree with your interpretation, saying they don't take the Bible literally, they pick and choose because stuff makes them feel uncomfortable, stretch God's word to mean what they want it to mean, they are on a slippery slope etc..etc.. Your fruits are bad fruits.

If we play with the meaning of the word death, we might as well play with the meaning of the word life.
Either meanings have already been tampered with by the devil.

By introducing the subject of a natural immortality, he has basically said that it does not matter if you disobey God, you will live forever in a place of torment, or if you are going to heaven you will be without a body, so the experience will be as a ghost and nothing better.

When God means life He means real life - a real resurrection, a real body, a real heaven, a real universe as it is now.
When God means death he means just that - no life whatsoever.

Ask the devil and he'll tell you the opposite.

Starhunter wrote:If we play with the meaning of the word death, we might as well play with the meaning of the word life.
Either meanings have already been tampered with by the devil.

By introducing the subject of a natural immortality, he has basically said that it does not matter if you disobey God, you will live forever in a place of torment, or if you are going to heaven you will be without a body, so the experience will be as a ghost and nothing better.

When God means life He means real life - a real resurrection, a real body, a real heaven, a real universe as it is now.
When God means death he means just that - no life whatsoever.

Ask the devil and he'll tell you the opposite.

I read the bible and have already backed up myself with scripture,you can look over them again and meditate on them just don't read them metaphorically and take them literal.I do not want you to believe my opinion at all I want you to believe God's word. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever,and they have no rest,day or night. This is what God's word says so it is not my interpretation. You make it seem the bible contradicts itself,but it doesn't.We are all going to die and those who have Jesus will have everlasting life in heaven,those that don't go to hell fire. You should not make it personal just because you read it metaphorically and I don't. Do not think it is not important to know and teach the truth about hell.How can you remind the devil Satan of his future in hell fire? When he throws your flaws up to you and tries to make you feel worthless to God? He is not afraid of your hell.

So everyone understands whats going on here I have broken down what ACB has said.

abelcainsbrother wrote: I read the bible and have already backed up myself with scripture,you can look over them again and meditate on them just don't read them metaphorically and take them literal.

ACB's interpretation is to read the text fully literally.

I do not want you to believe my opinion at all I want you to believe God's word.

Here ACB is talking out both sides of his mouth, he says believe God's word but really what he means is believe my literal interpretation.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever,and they have no rest,day or night. This is what God's word says so it is not my interpretation.

If the passage is meant to be taken metaphorically then it is not believing God's word, it would be believing ACB'S instead, what ACB really should do is provide proof that it is meant to be read literally.

You make it seem the bible contradicts itself,but it doesn't.

It doesn't really contradict itself, it only contradicts ACB'S interpretation of it which he equates as God's word.

Well that's my take on it all

Everlasting death - is just that. Nothing to suggest life hereafter.
Everlasting smoke or whatever - is just that. Nothing to suggest that people are everlasting. Unless they have an immortal spirit as the devil says.
What do the scriptures say about soul, spirit, ghost? Do they ever say that they are our immortal counterparts or does the Bible say that only God has immortality?

If you want to believe that the soul/spirit/ghost is an everlasting element within ourselves, of course you'll think that the Bible teaches that people or components of people will be tortured forever, of course you will believe that and have 'proof.'

But if you take the Bible meaning for soul spirit ghost then it will be a totally different picture.

ItBeMacKenzie wrote:Hi everyone! So, for about a year now I've been going through a bit of a crisis of faith/existential crisis. I constantly find myself struggling with such fun topics as: the existence of God, the purpose of existence, the inevitability of death, the question of Biblical infallibility, disconcerting passages in the Bible, and the list goes on.

One of the biggest issues that I've been wrestling with is the doctrine of eternal conscious torment in Hell. I have, like, a lot of issues with Hell and I can't wrap my mind around it. How is eternal torment in Hell for unbelievers just?

When I was in my 20s I was not as reverent as I am today. I once had a knock down argument with a born-again. I have a pretty strong wit and I was beginning to frustrate the guy. You know when you have really made a born-again angry because they start talking about eternal damnation and where your soul is going to go when you die. I said, "how bad can it be it can't be worse than living in NJ." He did not even crack a smile. I have to work with this guy so in an attempt to extend and olive branch I started talking about the metaphysics of hell. So I said being in Hell the pain from the eternal suffering had to be like an irrational number. It never repeats the same pattern twice because because if the patterned of suffering ever repeated you would eventually get used to it. This made him smile. I guess he was taking pleasure in the idea that someone who did not share his beliefs would suffer for all eternity.

Since then I have change my views about the nature of God and I have become much more reverent. But like you I still struggle with the nature of an omnipotent God and why would an omnipotent God even have a purpose for Hell. It seems to me an omnipotent God is not lacking anything and just exists having his omnipotent God thoughts never to be comprehended by mortal man.

As I've gotten old I've become a lot more forgiving of people. The world is a many ways a terrible and complex place. The amount of human suffering in the World is staggering. 3 people shot killed in mall today. Some guy killed his own family and himself in Atlanta. The stresses and strains of living today are pushing people over the edges. It's beyond right and wrong. It's beyond morality. I have stopped judging other people completely at this point. I just can't pretend to be God anymore judging other people when my own life is so full of suffering. The World is just too terrible of a place for me to judge anyone any longer. My current belief, hope, and faith is when we die, God uses his omnipotent powers of forgiveness to allow every one through the gates of heaven to experience eternal bliss regardless of our earthly sins. Is it right, is it wrong, I just don't care. Unless each one of us is born with the power of omnipotence how can we be judged by our choices at this point. There's just way too much out of control insanity in the world for anyone to really be held responsible for this madness.

I once made this argument before and a born-again and he argued without the threat of Hell and eternal suffering, people would not have any morals at all. I think the opposite is true which seems to be what the evidence is suggesting. In the face of the threat of Hell people just give up and allow themselves to be evil. I would argue what makes people live a moral life has nothing to do with the threat of Hell and eternal damnation. I don't know what it is but I only can relate how I feel. I think every person should be treated like a priceless piece of art. When you carry a priceless piece of art across the room you take every step with caution. Just like a piece of priceless art, people should be sacred, loved, and cherished. Reality, however, is people treat each other like worthless dirt. And yet, with everything interconnected, how can you blame anyone for being so miserable that their behaviors are at the other end of spectrum from being saint-like.

I just refuse to judge anymore. Whether Hell is justified or not. I hope and pray our omnipotent forgives me and everyone else regardless of our earthly sins. I'm just done with the insanity.