Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote:What's TULIP?

Please do a small search, Calvinism TULIP. While not all of it, it basically says that God saves those whom he choose to and reject people who he chooses to for no reason at all but his own pleasure, that basically means god forekknows and decides who is saved and who's not.

It basically renders evangelism null, something which some here are unwantingly making a case for.

Storyteller wrote:What's TULIP?

It's a belief. See details here http://www.theopedia.com/TULIP

Got it, thanks

Surely it is the desire of God to gather ALL of his lost sheep? Why would he condemn someone to Hell by placing them somewhere where they will not hear the gospel?
If that is indeed His will, why is there a need to spread the Word?
Where is the free will element for those who have not heard, or do not hear the gospel?

Maybe it is not the fault of those who have not heard, but the fault of ours who know and do not reach out.

Neo and Story

Just ponder this for a time; roll it around in your mind, wrestle with it: Since God knows all things, then it is factual that he would know the final result of his own calling out to all people will have before he ever called out to anyone or even created...

That is what I am referring too on my prior postings.

This is a line of thinking that goes way beyond TULIP and Armenienism thought on this matter. Those two are actually weak theories on predestination that create discord an disunity within the body of Christ. It is time we go beyond these and take a look at the big picture instead.

Just a casual reading of Romans 1:20,21,22,23 expresses that God does speak to all humanity in many shapes and forms and that it is the folks themselves that freely reject. From this, God knows best what to do as I earlier expressed.

The true sovereignty of God goes way above the intellect of Calvinism, Armenienism concepts. It is in that true sovereignty of His, that I find rest, real peace, on this very matter. May the Lord himself enlighten you on this matter too and find that same rest.
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B. W. wrote:Neo and Story

Just ponder this for a time; roll it around in your mind, wrestle with it: Since God knows all things, then it is factual that he would know the final result of his own calling out to all people will have before he ever called out to anyone or even created...

That is what I am referring too on my prior postings.

This is a line of thinking that goes way beyond TULIP and Armenienism thought on this matter. Those two are actually weak theories on predestination that create discord an disunity within the body of Christ. It is time we go beyond these and take a look at the big picture instead.

Just a casual reading of Romans 1:20,21,22,23 expresses that God does speak to all humanity in many shapes and forms and that it is the folks themselves that freely reject. From this, God knows best what to do as I earlier expressed.

The true sovereignty of God goes way above the intellect of Calvinism, Armenienism concepts. It is in that true sovereignty of His, that I find rest, real peace, on this very matter. May the Lord himself enlighten you on this matter too and find that same rest.
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I will ponder on it a good while, and pray.

I am trying desperately to understand and tie it all together so, yes, pray for me, please, that I will make sense of this.

Bottom line is I trust God implicitly.

Storyteller wrote:Bottom line is I trust God implicitly.

Excellent! Continue doing that & read your Bible and ask questions when you are stumped. B.W., Rick, Jac, Philip and Kurieuo can be trusted to give you concise & precise biblical answers to the questions you have. (Don't trust anyone else unless you ask me first!)

FL

Its alright st, the best thing you can do.

FL... every time I see your avatar I just want to do this

neo... I always will, and do.

BW.... okay, I get that God knows beforehand who will reject Him, what I don't get is why He would place them somewhere where they won't hear His message. Surely they would be the very people that need to hear it?
Isn't He ensuring their damnation rather than continually offering salvation?

You know, some things are mystery to me. I used to rush for truth and understanding. I would like to know all and understand all, still I want that, but I am already reconciled with that on this earth I will not know everything.
I still eager for truth and all, but I am only a human being and God is God.

I know exactly what you mean Hana.
I trust God implicitly. He knows what He is doing and it will always be what is best for us. I don't doubt that, ever.
I am constantly seeking to broaden my understanding even though I know I will never fully understand God, certainly not while on earth anyway but that is the wonder of it all.

The only thing I can say is that when I look at the gospels, I see a God who would leave the 99 who are in the fold and goes for the one who is lost. He doesn't pre-determine whether the lost one one is going to reject him or not. And that is what probably saved a sinner like me in my darkest times. So that is what I believe. Everyone needs saving that is why we are ordered to evangelize because people need to hear this message. Its easy to sit in your comfy chair and think the lost ones are not worth bothering about but I wonder if Christ would do that. I think the lost ones are the all that heaven looks for, to see someone saved and rejoice in that.

neo-x wrote:The only thing I can say is that when I look at the gospels, I see a God who would leave the 99 who are in the fold and goes for the one who is lost. He doesn't pre-determine whether the lost one one is going to reject him or not. And that is what probably saved a sinner like me in my darkest times. So that is what I believe. Everyone needs saving that is why we are ordered to evangelize because people need to hear this message. Its easy to sit in your comfy chair and think the lost ones are not worth bothering about but I wonder if Christ would do that. I think the lost ones are the all that heaven looks for, to see someone saved and rejoice in that.

I totally get where you are coming from neo but maybe it isn`t Him that is pre determining whether the lost ones will reject Him? Maybe He just knows who will. Don`t get me wrong, I am having a real hard time getting my head around this but I do have total faith in Him.
I agree that everyone needs saving but not everyone wants to be saved, maybe it is those that are placed where they don`t hear the message but that brings us back to my original point that then, surely, they are the ones in desperate need of the message?

I get that this may run deeper than TULIP or Calvinism or whatever, it is something that perhaps only He knows the answer to.

I am torn here, part of me thinks that in reality, there will be very few that genuinely will not, or cannot, hear the message but then who will help them? If they don`t hear the message then they have nothing to reject. If they have nothing to reject it isn`t their choice, is it? Perhaps this is where His fore knowledge comes in?

I am 44, and it`s only recently that I have really heard and understood the message but I was looking for God, always. I read all I could, rejected a lot of stuff as it didn`t feel right and kept on looking. I knew I was missing something, something vital, so I kept on looking. Seek and you shall find. What is the actual saying? If you look for me with all of your heart and mind, you will find me? Maybe that applies to those who haven`t heard the message, maybe their salvation starts with them looking which brings me to my earlier point of feeling God.

I don`t have all the answers, and to be frank, some of this just plain baffles me but I do know this. He will never turn away from anyone who is looking for Him, wheteher they have heard the message or not.

Maybe I already mentioned it somewhere that I was told once: we should leave in mystery what God leaves in mystery.

Furstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Excellent! Continue doing that & read your Bible and ask questions when you are stumped. B.W., Rick, Jac, Philip and Kurieuo can be trusted to give you concise & precise biblical answers to the questions you have. (Don't trust anyone else unless you ask me first!)

FL

Trust noone but God

(And FL, your list is little bit short).

B. W. wrote:Neo and Story

Just ponder this for a time; roll it around in your mind, wrestle with it: Since God knows all things, then it is factual that he would know the final result of his own calling out to all people will have before he ever called out to anyone or even created...

That is what I am referring too on my prior postings.

This is a line of thinking that goes way beyond TULIP and Armenienism thought on this matter. Those two are actually weak theories on predestination that create discord an disunity within the body of Christ. It is time we go beyond these and take a look at the big picture instead.

Just a casual reading of Romans 1:20,21,22,23 expresses that God does speak to all humanity in many shapes and forms and that it is the folks themselves that freely reject. From this, God knows best what to do as I earlier expressed.

The true sovereignty of God goes way above the intellect of Calvinism, Armenienism concepts. It is in that true sovereignty of His, that I find rest, real peace, on this very matter. May the Lord himself enlighten you on this matter too and find that same rest.
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I have a question B.W.: where is Satan in this?
Does he influence people to the point they do not believe in God? If yes, are those people responsible for their rejection?
Does he not influence people to that point? If yes, what power does he have then?