Philip wrote:Well, a big "hint" to all of this speculation is to remember that The Apostle Paul has already told us that God has condemned people who have never heard the Gospel. Why? Because they had rejected what about Himself God had already made clear to them (the very same basic things He has revealed to ALL, as we're instructed is true and is certain "because God has shown it to them.") And these people Paul speaks of have never heard the Gospel. So, what SCRIPTURE says is that rejecting even the basic understandings (that Paul tells us that ALL have about God) that have always been made clear to men, "ever since the creation of the world," is enough to condemn them.
So, the question should be: Do we believe Romans 1 or not?
Absolutely God has condemned people that have never heard the gospel. This notion that every single person who never heard the gospel gets an automatic pass into heaven is not at all what I or I believe others are suggesting. This is exactly what I was meaning when I said that that gives the false impression that we are better off not evangelising to anyone, especially the missionaries in remote locations as they are better off not hearing and being saved. I just don't think this argument holds up. And would only be the case if it was being suggested that every single person who has never heard the gospel goes to heaven. Is it really any different to God knowing those that truly belong to Him who claim to be christian? We know from scripture and life experience that many people claim to be christian but they have never truly trusted. Is God at a loss as to what to do? Well they said they were, they went to church, so every professing christians gets on the eternity train. It's not like that. We know that. God sees straight into our hearts and knows our intent. Why is it so hard to believe that God could use this same all encompassing knowledge and extend it to those that never had the opportunity to hear the gospel.
I think it is a very one dimensial view to say 'well look at the world we live in today, with the Internet ect, there are very few people who haven't heard, so this argument doesn't really hold up'. Well hold on one minute....
The nature of this global community we now live in is a very new phenomenon, we can look back over the last couple thousand years and see how there are many countries and communities that would have zero exposure to the gospel, to the tune of billions of people over the centuries. To suggest with absolute certainty to a world of people who want to know what happened to all these people according to Christianity that they all went to hell is damaging far beyond what I think we realise. This type of attitude turns people away from wanting a relationship with Christ in droves. Now what if we are wrong? I think the best answer is 'we don't know, all we can do is trust Gods wisdom but what we do know is that right now we are speaking about Jesus so you and I don't have the same concern as those that never heard because we have'.
Scripture is clear
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
No where in scripture does it mention babies, children or mentally handicapped. I don't think it can be said they are sinless, except in the case of babies and extremely handicapped. Children lie, steal, cheat and they know it's wrong. But no-one is suggesting that a seven year old is burning in the pits of hell for stealing a Mars bar. Scripture does not say 'all children escape judgment and go to heaven' or the mentally disabled. But we know that our loving God makes allowances for children and mentally challenged people, why? Because of His nature. We assume that God's nature would always ensure that every judgment of eternity is done in complete perfect fairness. But yet the exclusivist would argue that the inclusive idea that those that have never heard scripture still have a chance of salvation is non biblical whilst still adhering to the salvation of children and mentally handicapped which is also not represented in scripture. The same assumtions are being made on Gods character and absolute fairness but to differing degrees.
This is why I won't sit in the exclusive camp because they use this assumption to back their own ideas but to condemn another's and I won't sit in the inclusive camp because they take this assumtion often further than I am personally comfortable with.
Now imagine I am talking to a an Aboriginal/Koori man, he asks me what about all the aboriginals who have died never hearing the gospel. Keeping in mind few things, firstly that ancestral connection is an integral part of Koori culture and because of Australia's geographical location up untill only a couple hundred years ago they were completely isolated, not a chance of a bible sneaking in anywhere or a missionary. Also it is argued that Aboriginals have been here for anywhere between 40,000 to 60,000 years, a bloody long time, we are talking about a lot of people and a lot of souls, even if we just take into account a couple thousand years since Jesus.
So I answer this man in the mindset of an exclusivist 'well they are all in hell', and the man responds well that's not fair, they never even had a chance. I reply well you see that's how God intended it, your ancestors were geographically placed here because they were never going to accept Jesus anyway. The man says so God placed countless ancestors of mine on this land, knowing they never had a chance of salvation so that they could all end up for eternity in hell. Would it not have been better for them to not have been born at all?
I reply well, they aren't actually all in hell, my bad, the mentally handicapped and the children escaped such a predicament.
Right says the man, so only those unfortunate or as it would seem fortunate enough to die in youth or be mentally challenged went to heaven.
Yep, that about sums it up.
Well I don't know if I like the sound of a God that operates like that
And the icing on the cake, well sir, none of us deserve to go to heaven, we are all guilty, just like your ancestors and derserve Hell, but Jesus died on the cross for us, so that we might have eternal life.
Well he sure as hell didn't die on that cross for any of my ancestors now did he?
I have read about and spoken to people who have asked these questions and got similar type responses. Do you think they embraced christianity? I was reading of a missionary who had been doing work in China, an elderly gentlemen spoke to this lady of an encounter he had with a missionary some years earlier where has was asking about his ancestors and was told they were all in hell. Even though something was drawing him to God and christianity for many years, he could never accept what this missionary told him, and rejected that kind of God. It wasn't until this lady spoke to him of Gods perfect fairness and perfect love that this man was able to embrace where his heart was leading him.
It is damaging to use our assumtions on something so vitally important when sharing with others the message of Christ. People come to forums like this with these kinds of questions, and we are representing Jesus and His message. I ask again, what if we are wrong? What if this wrong assumptions puts a barrier between a person and Jesus?
It is not only OK to say 'I dont know', I think its vitally crucial to do so!
