Evidence for God from Science

Nope!


No goldfish to see here...

But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they? Carnivores MUST eat other flesh. It's what they were designed for, what they are equipped for, what they must do to survive. Ever notice those canine teeth we all have? Are we to deny our evolved past and predestined future? But if killing and eating animals is wrong, then WHY is it wrong for us but okay for the entire animal kingdom?!!! But I don't see PETA in Africa trying to get between Lions and Wildebeest herds. And if this planet is only the result of some Darwinian crapshoot, why does it ultimately matter what one eats - or whom (for all you cannibal fans)? Are we for or against euthanasia? If so, why would someone be against hunting - typically resulting in an extremely quick and painless death (most animals are dead in a brief moment). Guess what happens to animals that are not harvested for their food value? They don't go off to some old folks home for animals - no, they grow old, lose their teeth, their ability to hunt or flee predators, and they die in the woods a very slow, often difficult death. OR (and you Darwinians must be proud of this) when an old, sick animal becomes an easy target, some carnivore devours them - sometimes, as in the case of lions or hyenas, while they are still alive, kicking and screaming.

Ah, but if animal life is predicated upon hunter/prey relationships and terrible ends in the woods, why should we care any more about human beings being harmed, killed or euthanized (oh, yeah, right, I forget, they DON'T) - unless...

None of the above is to suggest that we don't treat animals humanely or value them as a species, but that when we do harvest them, it is quick and relatively painless. I do have a problem with the conditions in many factory farms, as until an animal is harvested, it should be treated as well as possible.

Couldn`t agree more!

I eat meat but I do try, where possible, to eat free range.

If I had to rely on myself hunting and killing the animal though, I`m not sure I could. I don`t know that I could take an animals life yet when my dog is old, if he is suffering in any way I wouldn`t hesitate in having him put down. Why do I feel there is a difference? Mercy killing maybe?

Absolutely agree that the living conditions are important as is how the animal is killed. I`ve worked in a chicken factory and the way they are killed is barbaric.

Its all true, no animal ever takes care of another, never has a friend, never misses a chance to steal, kill and torture. Kindness? Never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqL2NVUYiU

Audie wrote:Its all true, no animal ever takes care of another, never has a friend, never misses a chance to steal, kill and torture. Kindness? Never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqL2NVUYiU

Audie,

Some animals can form relationships with other animals, and humans. They were created that way. The bible even mentions that when it mentions "soulish" creatures. Soulish creatures have a mind, will, and emotions.

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:Its all true, no animal ever takes care of another, never has a friend, never misses a chance to steal, kill and torture. Kindness? Never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqL2NVUYiU

Audie,

Some animals can form relationships with other animals, and humans. They were created that way. The bible even mentions that when it mentions "soulish" creatures. Soulish creatures have a mind, will, and emotions.

Why yes, they are kinda like people that way.

I was just commenting on this line..But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:Its all true, no animal ever takes care of another, never has a friend, never misses a chance to steal, kill and torture. Kindness? Never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqL2NVUYiU

Audie,

Some animals can form relationships with other animals, and humans. They were created that way. The bible even mentions that when it mentions "soulish" creatures. Soulish creatures have a mind, will, and emotions.

Why yes, they are kinda like people that way.

I was just commenting on this line..But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they

Are you saying that animals have a sense of morality? That animals can be kind or cruel, and know that they are acting that way?

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:Its all true, no animal ever takes care of another, never has a friend, never misses a chance to steal, kill and torture. Kindness? Never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqL2NVUYiU

Audie,

Some animals can form relationships with other animals, and humans. They were created that way. The bible even mentions that when it mentions "soulish" creatures. Soulish creatures have a mind, will, and emotions.

Why yes, they are kinda like people that way.

I was just commenting on this line..But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they

Are you saying that animals have a sense of morality? That animals can be kind or cruel, and know that they are acting that way?

No, I think we cannot assume that animals know anything of morality. Perhaps they do, but, how would one ever know?

However, we do see alturism, bonding, loyalty, etc, behaviours that we call moral when people do the same things.

My idea is just that the basic behaviours existed before people thought of codifying such behaviour and calling it moral.

Some of what we do under the heading of morality, such as recognition of universal human rights (slow as it is coming) is an invention or maybe more like a discovery. Something thought through, and I doubt any animal other than "us" has ever thought thru any of their behaviour.

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:

RickD wrote:

Audie wrote:Its all true, no animal ever takes care of another, never has a friend, never misses a chance to steal, kill and torture. Kindness? Never.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gqL2NVUYiU

Audie,

Some animals can form relationships with other animals, and humans. They were created that way. The bible even mentions that when it mentions "soulish" creatures. Soulish creatures have a mind, will, and emotions.

Why yes, they are kinda like people that way.

I was just commenting on this line..But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they

Are you saying that animals have a sense of morality? That animals can be kind or cruel, and know that they are acting that way?

No, I think we cannot assume that animals know anything of morality. Perhaps they do, but, how would one ever know?

However, we do see alturism, bonding, loyalty, etc, behaviours that we call moral when people do the same things.

My idea is just that the basic behaviours existed before people thought of codifying such behaviour and calling it moral.

Some of what we do under the heading of morality, such as recognition of universal human rights (slow as it is coming) is an invention or maybe more like a discovery. Something thought through, and I doubt any animal other than "us" has ever thought thru any of their behaviour.

Ok good. Thanks.

Any time

Philip wrote:But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they? Carnivores MUST eat other flesh. It's what they were designed for, what they are equipped for, what they must do to survive. Ever notice those canine teeth we all have? Are we to deny our evolved past and predestined future? But if killing and eating animals is wrong, then WHY is it wrong for us but okay for the entire animal kingdom?!!! But I don't see PETA in Africa trying to get between Lions and Wildebeest herds. And if this planet is only the result of some Darwinian crapshoot, why does it ultimately matter what one eats - or whom (for all you cannibal fans)? Are we for or against euthanasia? If so, why would someone be against hunting - typically resulting in an extremely quick and painless death (most animals are dead in a brief moment). Guess what happens to animals that are not harvested for their food value? They don't go off to some old folks home for animals - no, they grow old, lose their teeth, their ability to hunt or flee predators, and they die in the woods a very slow, often difficult death. OR (and you Darwinians must be proud of this) when an old, sick animal becomes an easy target, some carnivore devours them - sometimes, as in the case of lions or hyenas, while they are still alive, kicking and screaming.

Ah, but if animal life is predicated upon hunter/prey relationships and terrible ends in the woods, why should we care any more about human beings being harmed, killed or euthanized (oh, yeah, right, I forget, they DON'T) - unless...

None of the above is to suggest that we don't treat animals humanely or value them as a species, but that when we do harvest them, it is quick and relatively painless. I do have a problem with the conditions in many factory farms, as until an animal is harvested, it should be treated as well as possible.

Like most other animals we tend not to kill and eat our own species. As we can get by on a vegetarian diet, some opt to reduce, or remove, meat from their diets to reduce the level of suffering in their food. You are what you eat as they say. I'm in no position to criticise anyone as I had a bacon roll this morning and I enjoy a good steak or carnivorous junk food from time to time. An animal living a pleasant life & having no dependents being cleanly killed for consumption is hard to argue against but the reality for me is that we can't have billions of people hunting wild animals, or there will be none left, and the current mass industry meat production involves an awful lot of suffering. It's not so much for me that we should not eat meat, or kill animals, but more the amount of meat we eat as a species at the moment currently requires an awful lot of animals living in misery whilst an awful lot of humans die from lack of food. The world health organisation considers starvation the single greatest threat to the world's public health. Meat production on an industrial scale is far less efficient than plant production in terms of energy in>calories out.

The euthanasia point introduces the notion of consent. The line of thought as I understand it is that an animal being hunted or raised for meat, whilst not being in position to consent to its death for consumption, will generally try to avoid dying in a way that a vegetable will not. Humans on the other hand are occasionally in the position to give consent alongside coherent positions on why they wish to die which are generally based upon the grounds of suffering and the quality of life they are likely to experience. It's strange to think we are resistant against killing beings that want to die and accepting of killing beings which demonstrably don't want to die.

Philip wrote:But animals don't seem to adhere to that "be kind to animals" way of thinking, do they?

Herbivores?