Evidence for God from Science

Storyteller wrote:You did imply that tho....

science gave us the moon, religion gave us 9/11.

moon good

9/11 bad

ok science gave us the ak47, religion gave us the cathedrals.

is that less, or more true than moon / 911?

Personally, I dont see good or bad in the moon landing, more like kinda senseless.

Senseless too is denying the power of religious conviction to bring great mischief.

delete

Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:You did imply that tho....

science gave us the moon, religion gave us 9/11.

moon good

9/11 bad

ok science gave us the ak47, religion gave us the cathedrals.

is that less, or more true than moon / 911?

Personally, I dont see good or bad in the moon landing, more like kinda senseless.

Senseless too is denying the power of religious conviction to bring great mischief.

And I am trying to figure out political yard signs?

One sign I saw today read: Vote Dean for Mayor and another said Vote for Bill...

Obviously someone created the sign and someone created the wood used to make the paper for the sign. In fact the steal brackets that held the signs were created by someone who made the steal from someone who created the Iron ore and carbon used to the make the steal...

Political signs point to a creative source.

So Audie, why would the creator of wood and Iron ore want to live next to a snarky person like yourself who belittles all he does?

you are right - political signs do make a point...
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Audie wrote:

Storyteller wrote:You did imply that tho....

science gave us the moon, religion gave us 9/11.

moon good

9/11 bad

ok science gave us the ak47, religion gave us the cathedrals.

is that less, or more true than moon / 911?

Personally, I dont see good or bad in the moon landing, more like kinda senseless.

Senseless too is denying the power of religious conviction to bring great mischief.

It was Christianity that gave you modern day science also,we were stuck in the dark ages but Christianity brought us out of it and it wasn't easy,Christians were burned at the stake but their deaths eventually led to modern day science.Christianity gave us our Universities as they all have a Christian beginning,its a shame how everything has changed now where it is the opposite in science now atheism rules,but also in Universities also.But there is a reason and it is signs pointing us to something great coming for those who are paying attention.

abelcainsbrother wrote:It was Christianity that gave you modern day science also,we were stuck in the dark ages but Christianity brought us out of it and it wasn't easy,

Was it Christianity that brought us science? Or was it people who just so happen to be Christians who brought us modern science.

Ken

Was it Christianity that brought us science? Or was it people who just so happen to be Christians who brought us modern science.

Or was it people who just happen to be Christians, who make up the body of Christ...aka Christianity


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... faith.html this is the very reason I came here some 2-3 years ago,

you tell me; Christians making up the body of... or

Kenny wrote:

abelcainsbrother wrote:It was Christianity that gave you modern day science also,we were stuck in the dark ages but Christianity brought us out of it and it wasn't easy,

Was it Christianity that brought us science? Or was it people who just so happen to be Christians who brought us modern science.

Ken

It seems to me a little too simple to claim that Christianity "gave" us modern day science, or that Christians happenned to be responsible for the developpment of science. Society is a lot more complex than that. Politics, economics, medicine, technology, philosophy, art, morality, ad infinitum, all play a part in a society's progress.

This is a Which-came-First-the-Chicken-or-the-Egg? question.

FL

James Hannam's God's Philosophers is a nice read on the impact of Christianity on the development of modern science.
http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Philosophers ... 1848311508

EssentialSacrifice wrote:Was it Christianity that brought us science? Or was it people who just so happen to be Christians who brought us modern science.

Or was it people who just happen to be Christians, who make up the body of Christ...aka Christianity


http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... faith.html this is the very reason I came here some 2-3 years ago,

you tell me; Christians making up the body of... or

What do you mean by "Christians who make up the body of Christ? How are these Christians different than those who do not?

Ken

It seems to me a little too simple to claim that Christianity "gave" us modern day science, or that Christians happenned to be responsible for the developpment of science. Society is a lot more complex than that. Politics, economics, medicine, technology, philosophy, art, morality, ad infinitum, all play a part in a society's progress.

This is a Which-came-First-the-Chicken-or-the-Egg? question.

I understand it seems a little too simple to say Christians are the only ones ( I agree) who can claim the beginnings of modern science, but it is absolutely no stretch at all in saying the basis and bulk of the great halls were begun with great Christian influence... did you not look at the link... look at those names over they years and tell me you cannot see the implied mechanics of philosophy, astronomy, physics, mathematics and so many more that were initially begun or formally supported early in science's conceptions and substantially progressed by Christians. Certainly, there were many others involved as well,( without names, who knows how many of them were Christian also) but it is undeniable the influence the Christian faith had on todays modern science.

I don't understand the chicken or the egg parallel ... what question about who helped start modern science demands a "what came first" scenario?
Christ came first, right, Christianity followed

What do you mean by "Christians who make up the body of Christ? How are these Christians different than those who do not

Ken, all i am saying here is how do you separate the two ? I mean Christianity is made up of Christians, yes? and if so and the link provided, provides a base table of Christian people who initiated much of todays modern science applications ... then it stands to reason the Christian faith (Christianity) just so happens to produce the Christians who had a major role in the beginnings of our modern science.

The body of Christ reference is only another (all encompassing) way to define Christianity and the Christian scientists who help make the mystical body, aka.Christianity.

I kinda thought your initial question was the dog chasing it's tail... Christians...Christianity.. apologies if I'm being dense here ..

EssentialSacrifice wrote:I understand it seems a little too simple to say Christians are the only ones ( I agree) who can claim the beginnings of modern science, but it is absolutely no stretch at all in saying the basis and bulk of the great halls were begun with great Christian influence

The culture of Europe during the Renaissance promoted the rapid development of science. Christianity was an important part of European culture at the time but to claim that Christianity is responsible for modern science is far fetched. As I stated earlier, it is a combination of factors working together.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:did you not look at the link... look at those names over they years and tell me you cannot see the implied mechanics of philosophy, astronomy, physics, mathematics and so many more that were initially begun or formally supported early in science's conceptions and substantially progressed by Christians.

What does the link prove? That the people who made advances in science were all white men? Am I to conclude that "white maleness" is responsible for modern science? Of course not! ...but in a very real sense, yes! Yes, "white maleness" is important given the culture at the time. So, Christianity was important to the Renaissance, but to say it played a major role in the development of science is somewhat self-serving. Education, available leisure time, technology, medicine, commerce (mostly commerce!)...these and many other aspects of society have to be given their due as well.

EssentialSacrifice wrote:I don't understand the chicken or the egg parallel at all... what question about who helped start modern science demands a "what came first" scenario?

Neither the chicken nor the egg came first. The proto-chicken just evolved into a chicken that lays eggs...or so we're indoctrinated. Perhaps you'll understand this parallel better: in a beef stew, beef is just one ingredient of many. It's the same idea with Christianity & the Renaissance: one ingredient among many...maybe we can agree that it was the beef. (But it no longer is. Today's stew is vegetarian...)

FL

EssentialSacrifice wrote:

Kenny wrote:What do you mean by "Christians who make up the body of Christ? How are these Christians different than those who do not

Ken, all i am saying here is how do you separate the two ?

There is a difference between a religious person who uses his religion to find answers vs the religious person who sits his religion aside and looks for answers.

Galileo did not look in the bible or his religion and conclude the Earth is not the center of the Universe so it would be foolish to claim Christianity provided us with this answer; even though Galileo was christian.
Columbus did not look into the Bible or his religion and realize the Earth was round; so it would be foolish to claim Christianity provided us with that answer.

Christianity did not provide us with these answers, men who just so happen to be Christian; who were willing to put their bibles down and look into the sky, provided us with these answers.

Ken

The culture of Europe during the Renaissance promoted the rapid development of science. Christianity was an important part of European culture at the time but to claim that Christianity is responsible for modern science is far fetched. As I stated earlier, it is a combination of factors working together.

Responsible is your word, not mine...in fact responsible goes way too far as I stated...I understand it seems a little too simple to say Christians are the only ones ( I agree) who can claim the beginnings of modern science in some odd way you show our agreement

What does the link prove? That the people who made advances in science were all white men? Am I to conclude that "white maleness" is responsible for modern science?

No FL, look again, there can be more than one aspect involved with the pictured persons of that link ... the topic is Christianity in science... and yes if you wish can conclude they are all white ... it has nothing to do with the topic, but it is interesting deflection..

Neither the chicken nor the egg came first. The proto-chicken just evolved into a chicken that lays eggs...or so we're indoctrinated

This egg thing is out of hand What was your point in the first place ? I've forgotten. Now we're in to protochickens ... Oh, I remember now, Christ before Christians so the white guys during the Renaissance who helped get modern science off the ground ate beef stew with more than one ingredient proving too many cooks in the kitchen.... yeah, I got your point FL, and yes, we can agree that perhaps it was Christianity providing the beef. Wish I knew what yours was.

Was it Christianity that brought us science? Or was it people who just so happen to be Christians who brought us modern science

There is a difference between a religious person who uses his religion to find answers vs the religious person who sits his religion aside and looks for answers.
Absolutely agree ... but that wasn't the parameter of your original question, or if it was it was very elusive. By the way, they may have set their bibles aside momentarily to do their science, but that certainly doesn't mean they set aside their Christianity while doing their science. These guys were smart ... they could do a multitude of things at the same time.

Galileo did not look in the bible or his religion and conclude the Earth is not the center of the Universe so it would be foolish to claim Christianity provided us with this answer; even though Galileo was christian.
I never said scientists' Christianity provided us with anything... scientists who were Christians did. To argue a religion can do anything other than define a persons' faith is ridiculous or better still your word ... foolish.

Columbus did not look into the Bible or his religion and realize the Earth was round; so it would be foolish to claim Christianity provided us with that answer.
See Galileo above, nothing's changed. it is still foolishness to hope a religion will provide scientific answers. You've changed your parameters of question twice.

Christianity did not provide us with these answers, men who just so happen to be Christian; who were willing to put their bibles down and look into the sky, provided us with these answers.
You came closer here... Christianity didn't provide the answers, but neither did these men put down their bibles to look in to the skies. They did both, so Christians, practicing Christianity while looking in to the skies is your final answer . (bible reading scientist)